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Absolutely no opposition 17:09 - Jan 19 with 6459 viewsgiant_stow

and no one to other than little Timmy to represent the 48% - cheers Corbyn:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-mps-leader-vo

Feels like one massive stitch up.


Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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Absolutely no opposition on 21:36 - Jan 19 with 2254 viewsSwansea_Blue

Absolutely no opposition on 20:53 - Jan 19 by GlasgowBlue

"They're subverting democracy by pretending that the referendum covered membership of the single market, when of course it didn't."

FFS! How many times?



https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=s

And from Remain’s Stronger In campaign. Attacks on the Leavers for saying the UK should no longer be members of the single market during the referendum

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=s

And from the former Prime Minister and his right hand man



Stop peddling fake news.
[Post edited 19 Jan 2017 20:54]


David Davies and BoJo have both said the government would consider paying for access to the single market.

BoJo's said in his pacification speach immediately post-referendum:

“British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI — the BDI — has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."

So there's been far from a clear, unified position on this. We've voted to leave only, not on what the terms would be. We're olny just starting to see a strategy developing now. There certainly wasn't one before the vote. There was plenty of discussion about different models pre-referendum- Norway model, Swiss model, etc.

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Absolutely no opposition on 21:37 - Jan 19 with 2253 viewsvapour_trail

Absolutely no opposition on 18:47 - Jan 19 by GlasgowBlue

Constituency work and work at Westminster are two different things.

Most MP's are beholden to their party as they are the people giving the candidate a platform and stumping up the election spend.

Try standing as an independent and see how far you get.


When it suits you, you trot out the constituents line.

You bend with the wind mate.

Trailing vapour since 1999.
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Absolutely no opposition on 21:39 - Jan 19 with 2250 viewsWonky

Pointless discussion just generates more rancour, it's like a civil war the other side is not only wrong but is completely wrong. Only time will tell.
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Absolutely no opposition on 21:48 - Jan 19 with 2223 viewsgiant_stow

Absolutely no opposition on 21:39 - Jan 19 by Wonky

Pointless discussion just generates more rancour, it's like a civil war the other side is not only wrong but is completely wrong. Only time will tell.


Just let them get on with it.

Like I said, no opposition.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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Absolutely no opposition on 23:02 - Jan 19 with 2172 viewsGlasgowBlue

Absolutely no opposition on 21:36 - Jan 19 by Swansea_Blue

David Davies and BoJo have both said the government would consider paying for access to the single market.

BoJo's said in his pacification speach immediately post-referendum:

“British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI — the BDI — has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."

So there's been far from a clear, unified position on this. We've voted to leave only, not on what the terms would be. We're olny just starting to see a strategy developing now. There certainly wasn't one before the vote. There was plenty of discussion about different models pre-referendum- Norway model, Swiss model, etc.


Access to the single market is completely different than membership of the single market. Membership brings with it freedom of movement.

We can pay for access to the single market and at the same time negotiate bilateral trade agreements with counties like the USA, Australia and New Zealand, whilst maintaining control over our borders.

I doubt you would get a dissenting voice from a single leaver for a deal like that. You'd probably get a fair few reamianers on board as well.

Why are people thinking so small? Let's be bold.

Iron Lion Zion
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Absolutely no opposition on 23:14 - Jan 19 with 2160 viewspatrickswell

Absolutely no opposition on 20:55 - Jan 19 by J2BLUE

He's annoyed because the plan b of getting their own way by opting for the softest of Brexits has been foiled.

Democracy is only good when it goes their way. See also: Clinton voters.


Well, it's better than when it enables people who peddle racism and xenophobia to get their way. But we've been here before...
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Absolutely no opposition on 23:28 - Jan 19 with 2143 viewsJ2BLUE

Absolutely no opposition on 23:14 - Jan 19 by patrickswell

Well, it's better than when it enables people who peddle racism and xenophobia to get their way. But we've been here before...


Some did vote on those grounds. Others of us want to look globally rather than just inside Europe.

Truly impaired.
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Absolutely no opposition on 23:30 - Jan 19 with 2140 viewspatrickswell

Absolutely no opposition on 23:28 - Jan 19 by J2BLUE

Some did vote on those grounds. Others of us want to look globally rather than just inside Europe.


Fair enough. Let's hope it works.
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Absolutely no opposition on 02:03 - Jan 20 with 2092 viewsJonnosdreadlocks

Absolutely no opposition on 17:39 - Jan 19 by Darth_Koont

No-one voted for a hard exit though. We were going to leave the EU. Now we're talking about taking a step further outside than even Switzerland and Norway.

52-48 to leave the EU just isn't a mandate for this.


yep. out means out. screw the single market, we make our own deals. what is it with these bed wetting remoaners, deplorable behaviour! a win is a win, take it on the chin!

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Absolutely no opposition on 07:55 - Jan 20 with 2040 viewsGlasgowBlue

Absolutely no opposition on 23:14 - Jan 19 by patrickswell

Well, it's better than when it enables people who peddle racism and xenophobia to get their way. But we've been here before...


A post referendum poll found only 33% of Leave voters gave immigration as their ‘main reason’ for voting out. Recent polls also show a majority of voters, both leave and remain want EU migrants to be allowed to stay in the Uk. The majority of leave voters put sovereignty, the ability of the UK to make its own decisions, as the main reason for voting leave. Not racism or xenophobia.

The worst part of of your sweeping statement is that you are wiping out people like Gisela Stuart,a German born Labour MP, who was extremely high profile during the referendum and spoke at the live TV debates. And Trade Unionists Against the EU, which met and debated with workers and convinced many the EU is a bad thing.

You are branding decent people from all sides of the political divide as racist and xenophobic.

At best it's small minded of you. At worst it's bigoted.

Iron Lion Zion
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Absolutely no opposition on 08:05 - Jan 20 with 2044 viewsoldbluestu

Absolutely no opposition on 17:34 - Jan 19 by giant_stow

Triggering article 50 has every bearing on hard or soft brexit.

What with May saying she's prefer no deal to a bad deal, if parliament votes no to a deal, we'll be left with hard brexit by default (given the 2 year time frame, caused by triggering article 50).

No one voted for that. Don't try and re-write history - there was every doubt as to what brexit actually meant re the single market, before and after the vote.


Get real, the EU need us more than we need them. The German car industry is browning it's pants there will be a hard brexit and the UK will slap 20% tariff on their cars. A hard brexit will never happen agreements will be reached. We're in that phase where European leaders are trying to look big they're back down.
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Absolutely no opposition on 08:08 - Jan 20 with 2035 viewsvapour_trail

Absolutely no opposition on 08:05 - Jan 20 by oldbluestu

Get real, the EU need us more than we need them. The German car industry is browning it's pants there will be a hard brexit and the UK will slap 20% tariff on their cars. A hard brexit will never happen agreements will be reached. We're in that phase where European leaders are trying to look big they're back down.


The EU need us more than we need them

You're venturing into full on loony territory there, obs

Trailing vapour since 1999.
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Absolutely no opposition on 09:12 - Jan 20 with 2015 viewsDarth_Koont

Absolutely no opposition on 02:03 - Jan 20 by Jonnosdreadlocks

yep. out means out. screw the single market, we make our own deals. what is it with these bed wetting remoaners, deplorable behaviour! a win is a win, take it on the chin!


You have a strange concept of "we". Ironic that people are on about sovereignty and the ability to make our own deals when they're effectively saying that's now up to a minority government and not even through parliamentary debate.

What allowances are being made for the fact that half of us voted remain, or that millions of Brits abroad, and thousands of companies and their workers who rely on Europe are the ones who have most to lose? I doubt most of the Brexiteers will see any real difference either way.

None of which even addresses the conflict of interest faced by the Tories through needing to shore up the right flank of their party.

"We", my arse.

Pronouns: He/Him

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Absolutely no opposition on 09:41 - Jan 20 with 1997 viewsgiant_stow

Absolutely no opposition on 09:12 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont

You have a strange concept of "we". Ironic that people are on about sovereignty and the ability to make our own deals when they're effectively saying that's now up to a minority government and not even through parliamentary debate.

What allowances are being made for the fact that half of us voted remain, or that millions of Brits abroad, and thousands of companies and their workers who rely on Europe are the ones who have most to lose? I doubt most of the Brexiteers will see any real difference either way.

None of which even addresses the conflict of interest faced by the Tories through needing to shore up the right flank of their party.

"We", my arse.


Well said.
[Post edited 20 Jan 2017 9:41]

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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Absolutely no opposition on 09:49 - Jan 20 with 1979 viewsGlasgowBlue

Absolutely no opposition on 08:08 - Jan 20 by vapour_trail

The EU need us more than we need them

You're venturing into full on loony territory there, obs


That's not much different to what Mark Carney said last week:

“there are greater financial stability risks on the continent in the short term for the transition than there are for the UK”

Add that to the fact that, excluding Germany, Britain’s contribution to the EU budget is more than the total net contribution of the 26 other EU states combined.

We are also the EU's biggest single export market with a trade deficit of £23.8billion and three major economies have indicated they wish to do a free trade deal with the UK asap.

So the post you are replying to is hardly full on loony territory.

Iron Lion Zion
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Absolutely no opposition on 10:09 - Jan 20 with 1964 viewsSwansea_Blue

Absolutely no opposition on 23:02 - Jan 19 by GlasgowBlue

Access to the single market is completely different than membership of the single market. Membership brings with it freedom of movement.

We can pay for access to the single market and at the same time negotiate bilateral trade agreements with counties like the USA, Australia and New Zealand, whilst maintaining control over our borders.

I doubt you would get a dissenting voice from a single leaver for a deal like that. You'd probably get a fair few reamianers on board as well.

Why are people thinking so small? Let's be bold.


It completely depends on where the negotiations go though doesn't it. The easiest form of access would be via existing mechanisms such as membership of the EEA (e.g. Norway) or the EFTA (e.g. Switzerland), both of whom have to accept the free movement principles. (Would that be classed as membership or access? I'd guess the Norway model would be classed as membership (or as close as you can get) and the Swiss model just as access - but don't know enough about it to to know).

I think we're back in trying to 'have our cake and eat it' territory, which the EU and its members are showing no signs of entertaining.

Or we follow the CETA deal with Canada, which will achieve the wish to stop free movement but is so much poorer in terms of benefits than full membership / access. So that's not ambitious.

But what if we do want to have our cake and eat it? What you're potentially talking about by being bold could involve a complete rethinking of global free trade along the lines of the soundbites coming out of May at Davos at the moment. Now that would be hugely ambitious, but would take many years (probably several decades) to achieve, even if it is possible.

I'm glad i haven't got to unravel this!

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Absolutely no opposition on 10:19 - Jan 20 with 1949 viewsArcher4721

Absolutely no opposition on 18:32 - Jan 19 by GlasgowBlue

More good news

Guardian editor Kath Viner emails staff:

“I’m writing to let you know that, following a period of unpaid leave from Guardian News & Media, Seumas Milne has decided to continue in his role as the Labour party’s strategy and communications director, and is leaving the staff of the Guardian.

I would like to thank Seumas for his brilliant Guardian journalism, and we hope he’ll write for us again in the future.”


Yawn... Another copy and paste from Guido.
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Absolutely no opposition on 10:25 - Jan 20 with 1941 viewsFreddies_Ears

Absolutely no opposition on 23:28 - Jan 19 by J2BLUE

Some did vote on those grounds. Others of us want to look globally rather than just inside Europe.


"Look globally"?? Around 56% of our exports go to non-EU countries. Germany exports many times more to China than we do. EU has trade deals with dozens of countries, all of which we will have to renegotiate.

I don't see any gain, especially as we are royally p1ss1ng off the people who buy the other 44% of our exports...
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Absolutely no opposition on 10:35 - Jan 20 with 1924 viewsStokieBlue

Absolutely no opposition on 17:34 - Jan 19 by giant_stow

Triggering article 50 has every bearing on hard or soft brexit.

What with May saying she's prefer no deal to a bad deal, if parliament votes no to a deal, we'll be left with hard brexit by default (given the 2 year time frame, caused by triggering article 50).

No one voted for that. Don't try and re-write history - there was every doubt as to what brexit actually meant re the single market, before and after the vote.


I don't really understand your point. The Europeans have said they won't negotiate before article 50 is triggered so neither a hard or soft brexit can be discussed until it's triggered.

Not triggering it means not leaving the EU. So are you saying the referendum result should be ignored and it shouldn't be triggered at all?

SB

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Absolutely no opposition on 10:40 - Jan 20 with 1917 viewsArcher4721

Corbyn is right. We've had a referendum,you may not like the outcome but we have to respect the result and move on. It seems there's a culture in our democracy now who don't accept democratic votes unless it goes in their favour.
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Absolutely no opposition on 10:43 - Jan 20 with 1894 viewsStokieBlue

Absolutely no opposition on 10:40 - Jan 20 by Archer4721

Corbyn is right. We've had a referendum,you may not like the outcome but we have to respect the result and move on. It seems there's a culture in our democracy now who don't accept democratic votes unless it goes in their favour.


Wow.

I totally agree.

SB

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Absolutely no opposition on 11:30 - Jan 20 with 1874 viewsgiant_stow

Absolutely no opposition on 10:35 - Jan 20 by StokieBlue

I don't really understand your point. The Europeans have said they won't negotiate before article 50 is triggered so neither a hard or soft brexit can be discussed until it's triggered.

Not triggering it means not leaving the EU. So are you saying the referendum result should be ignored and it shouldn't be triggered at all?

SB


My point is we don't have to go along with the Europeans on triggering article 50 to talk - wait them out. They'd scream but so what - what's our rush?

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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Absolutely no opposition on 11:45 - Jan 20 with 1858 viewsGlasgowBlue

Absolutely no opposition on 11:30 - Jan 20 by giant_stow

My point is we don't have to go along with the Europeans on triggering article 50 to talk - wait them out. They'd scream but so what - what's our rush?


That is real head in the sand stuff

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Absolutely no opposition on 11:58 - Jan 20 with 1838 viewsStokieBlue

Absolutely no opposition on 11:30 - Jan 20 by giant_stow

My point is we don't have to go along with the Europeans on triggering article 50 to talk - wait them out. They'd scream but so what - what's our rush?


If we don't believe them on that point why should we believe them on no single market access?

Surely we believe them or we don't, cherry picking isn't sensible.

SB

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