| Martin McGuinness 21:05 - Jan 19 with 29385 views | vapour_trail |
Farewell to a political heavyweight. One of the key players in the creation of the current relatively peaceful northern Ireland and a man with a pretty grim past.
He will be missed. |  |
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| Martin McGuinness on 17:03 - Jan 20 with 2442 views | Darth_Koont |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:41 - Jan 20 by Raedwald_625 |
it was you confusing concentration camps with death camps.
32,000 documented deaths in the suburbs of German's second city - and nobody really knew? - you don't get much right do you?
'and what makes you think people knew anyway?' Did you read the report? Or, do you know better?
You can not keep applying absolutes to your prejudices: in this case re: saying Germans were in the dark about the plight of Jews and prisoners. Certainly when it comes to Dachau (concentration camp) connivance was widely practised. |
No, it was you. You just mentioned Dachau in the same breath as you talked about "knowing about the death camps."
People were aware of the persecution of the Jews, putting them in concentration camps under awful conditions and/or shipping them East and out of sight, out of mind. There, they were complicit. But hard to assert they knew the full, evil scale of the Holocaust when those details were very carefully kept from them.
I read the article and think it jumps to a few conclusions to make the more sensational allegation that people really knew what was going on. The secrecy around the gas chambers is just called "unusual" when that was true of all the discussion, planning and execution of the Final Solution even at the top of the leadership. |  |
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| Martin McGuinness on 17:05 - Jan 20 with 2431 views | Waterfootblue |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:58 - Jan 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Correct.
"Almost every community in Germany had members taken away to these camps. Newspapers continually reported "the removal of the enemies of the Reich to concentration camps." As early as 1935, a jingle went around: "Dear God, make me dumb, That I may not to Dachau come" ("Lieber Herr Gott, mach mich stumm, Das ich nicht nach Dachau komm'").
Maybe DK is a bit embarrassed that the SNP were supportive of Hitler during World War 2. [Post edited 20 Jan 2017 16:59]
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Edward and Mrs Simpson were rather friendly with Hitler but it does not embarrass me, all part of history. |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:11 - Jan 20 with 2387 views | Raedwald_625 |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:03 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
No, it was you. You just mentioned Dachau in the same breath as you talked about "knowing about the death camps."
People were aware of the persecution of the Jews, putting them in concentration camps under awful conditions and/or shipping them East and out of sight, out of mind. There, they were complicit. But hard to assert they knew the full, evil scale of the Holocaust when those details were very carefully kept from them.
I read the article and think it jumps to a few conclusions to make the more sensational allegation that people really knew what was going on. The secrecy around the gas chambers is just called "unusual" when that was true of all the discussion, planning and execution of the Final Solution even at the top of the leadership. |
You wrote, 'Added to which, the concentration camps were also work camps so difficult for outsiders to make the leap to the Final Solution.'
The concentration camps and the death camps were two different entities. But I admire how your confusion and ignorance never hold you back from 'contributing'.
'Complicit', yes, exactly - bingo! |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:15 - Jan 20 with 2370 views | Taricco_Fan |
Mr McGuinness can die a long, painful death as far as I'm concerned. |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:29 - Jan 20 with 2336 views | WeWereZombies |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:58 - Jan 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Correct.
"Almost every community in Germany had members taken away to these camps. Newspapers continually reported "the removal of the enemies of the Reich to concentration camps." As early as 1935, a jingle went around: "Dear God, make me dumb, That I may not to Dachau come" ("Lieber Herr Gott, mach mich stumm, Das ich nicht nach Dachau komm'").
Maybe DK is a bit embarrassed that the SNP were supportive of Hitler during World War 2. [Post edited 20 Jan 2017 16:59]
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For once full on agreement GB (apart from the final sentence, I'm no lover of the SNP but it was a minority of their small membership at that time who were practising the fallacious my enemy's enemy is my friend idiocy).
This part of a generally interesting thread is a great illustration of how a forgiving nature, typically British, can allow untruths to creep up on us. I've been arguing against Ryorry and Darth on this one but it was not until I read the Guardian piece linked by Raedwald that I thought 'How can I have been so stupid as to almost let this thing go', all those 'Warning from History' programmes and so on, the jingoistic posters portraying Jews as vermin, the Star of David painted onto shop windows, Krystallnacht, the yellow stars and ghettoisation. So much information and yet we forget... [Post edited 20 Jan 2017 17:38]
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| Martin McGuinness on 17:35 - Jan 20 with 2321 views | Darth_Koont |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:11 - Jan 20 by Raedwald_625 |
You wrote, 'Added to which, the concentration camps were also work camps so difficult for outsiders to make the leap to the Final Solution.'
The concentration camps and the death camps were two different entities. But I admire how your confusion and ignorance never hold you back from 'contributing'.
'Complicit', yes, exactly - bingo! |
I'm not sure I should bother but maybe you'll surprise me ...
From the outside, Auschwitz was ostensibly a giant work camp with several huge factories. Plus gas chambers, so not two entities at all. But to the population around they wouldn't have been that aware of the gas chambers given they were a small part of the overall complex. And that was in Poland anyway.
Certainly there weren't designated death camps in Germany and nor were they officially recognized except for a handful of people. The SS and similar fanatics in the camps and in the killing grounds knew what they were doing of course.
But a huge leap to argue that Germans knew what was going on at this industrial extermination level. Which, despite the headline, your historian agrees with. FWIW I agree that Germans were aware of the persecution and some of the resulting deaths of Jews, political prisoners, homosexuals, gypsies, catholics etc. But the scale of it was kept secret. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 17:37 - Jan 20 with 2306 views | Ryorry |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:29 - Jan 20 by WeWereZombies |
For once full on agreement GB (apart from the final sentence, I'm no lover of the SNP but it was a minority of their small membership at that time who were practising the fallacious my enemy's enemy is my friend idiocy).
This part of a generally interesting thread is a great illustration of how a forgiving nature, typically British, can allow untruths to creep up on us. I've been arguing against Ryorry and Darth on this one but it was not until I read the Guardian piece linked by Raedwald that I thought 'How can I have been so stupid as to almost let this thing go', all those 'Warning from History' programmes and so on, the jingoistic posters portraying Jews as vermin, the Star of David painted onto shop windows, Krystallnacht, the yellow stars and ghettoisation. So much information and yet we forget... [Post edited 20 Jan 2017 17:38]
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"a great illustration of how a forgiving nature, typically British, can allow untruths to creep up on us."
A really great point, that. |  |
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| Martin McGuinness on 17:40 - Jan 20 with 2278 views | WeWereZombies |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:37 - Jan 20 by Ryorry |
"a great illustration of how a forgiving nature, typically British, can allow untruths to creep up on us."
A really great point, that. |
Thanks, and refreshing that we are not at loggerheads about this. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 17:42 - Jan 20 with 2262 views | Ryorry |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:40 - Jan 20 by WeWereZombies |
Thanks, and refreshing that we are not at loggerheads about this. |
Likewise; was just on a factfinding (as far as that's possible) mission. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 17:42 - Jan 20 with 2256 views | Raedwald_625 |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:35 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
I'm not sure I should bother but maybe you'll surprise me ...
From the outside, Auschwitz was ostensibly a giant work camp with several huge factories. Plus gas chambers, so not two entities at all. But to the population around they wouldn't have been that aware of the gas chambers given they were a small part of the overall complex. And that was in Poland anyway.
Certainly there weren't designated death camps in Germany and nor were they officially recognized except for a handful of people. The SS and similar fanatics in the camps and in the killing grounds knew what they were doing of course.
But a huge leap to argue that Germans knew what was going on at this industrial extermination level. Which, despite the headline, your historian agrees with. FWIW I agree that Germans were aware of the persecution and some of the resulting deaths of Jews, political prisoners, homosexuals, gypsies, catholics etc. But the scale of it was kept secret. |
You are getting confused again. Auschwitz was a death camp assigned to the Final solution at the Wannsee Conference, which was a different beast to the concentration camps.
I'm not claiming that the full extent of atrrocities was known to all Germans. I am contesting your claim that the German people were in the dark re: what was going on: They weren't. | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:51 - Jan 20 with 2226 views | Darth_Koont |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:42 - Jan 20 by Raedwald_625 |
You are getting confused again. Auschwitz was a death camp assigned to the Final solution at the Wannsee Conference, which was a different beast to the concentration camps.
I'm not claiming that the full extent of atrrocities was known to all Germans. I am contesting your claim that the German people were in the dark re: what was going on: They weren't. |
Auschwitz was a concentration camp too. That was the workforce for the huge industry there.
You still haven't addressed why the whole planning of the Final Solution was in secret. From Wannsee and the vague comments in the meeting minutes to the subsequent building and running of the extermination camps.
And yet the Germans weren't somehow in the dark ...
You'll need to supply some evidence that they knew more than the Jews were being shipped off East to work. That they actually knew that something that had never happened before was going on, while their leaders did everything they could to hide it. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 18:00 - Jan 20 with 2180 views | feelingblue |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:29 - Jan 20 by WeWereZombies |
For once full on agreement GB (apart from the final sentence, I'm no lover of the SNP but it was a minority of their small membership at that time who were practising the fallacious my enemy's enemy is my friend idiocy).
This part of a generally interesting thread is a great illustration of how a forgiving nature, typically British, can allow untruths to creep up on us. I've been arguing against Ryorry and Darth on this one but it was not until I read the Guardian piece linked by Raedwald that I thought 'How can I have been so stupid as to almost let this thing go', all those 'Warning from History' programmes and so on, the jingoistic posters portraying Jews as vermin, the Star of David painted onto shop windows, Krystallnacht, the yellow stars and ghettoisation. So much information and yet we forget... [Post edited 20 Jan 2017 17:38]
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Interesting to note, given the original thrust of this thread, that, the Taoiseach, Eamon de Valera visited the German Embassy in Dublin to offer his personal condolences over the death of Adolf Hitler, who had committed suicide in the Fuhrerbunker two day earlier. |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:06 - Jan 20 with 2163 views | Tendring_Blue |
Unbelievable!! What ever next! |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:07 - Jan 20 with 2159 views | Darth_Koont |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:00 - Jan 20 by feelingblue |
Interesting to note, given the original thrust of this thread, that, the Taoiseach, Eamon de Valera visited the German Embassy in Dublin to offer his personal condolences over the death of Adolf Hitler, who had committed suicide in the Fuhrerbunker two day earlier. |
Yep. And the Royal British Legion were going to oversee Hitler taking the Sudetenland too.
History makes an ass of us all as we rarely have all the facts or true perspective at the time. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 18:07 - Jan 20 with 2160 views | legal_blue |
No question he had a very troubling past and clear links with active members of the IRA.
But he has also been instrumental in ending the violence, too. Never forget, Margaret Thatcher used to refer to Nelson Mandela and the ANC as 'terrorists'.
And in terms of the British Army in Northern Ireland, it's hard to describe what it's like to see British paratroopers, crouching, weapons poised in a town like Woodbridge as they were in NI. Unless you've experienced that, I doubt you'll know the true impact of seeing violence and the armed forces of the state in your home town.
Town fans would also do well to recall the close links we have with Ireland and Irish players before posting English nationalist drivel. |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:13 - Jan 20 with 2126 views | Raedwald_625 |
| Martin McGuinness on 17:51 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
Auschwitz was a concentration camp too. That was the workforce for the huge industry there.
You still haven't addressed why the whole planning of the Final Solution was in secret. From Wannsee and the vague comments in the meeting minutes to the subsequent building and running of the extermination camps.
And yet the Germans weren't somehow in the dark ...
You'll need to supply some evidence that they knew more than the Jews were being shipped off East to work. That they actually knew that something that had never happened before was going on, while their leaders did everything they could to hide it. |
The Germans were hardly lightly to label this new type of camp with its 'showers' and 'workshop furnace' as a 'Death Camp' - but that's what it was.
The construction, maintenance and logistics of these projects would require numerous skilled and unskilled Germans to participate . Tens of Millions were transported (visible and odorous evidence), housed and publically abused - the sheer scale would suggest widely-known knowlege of such activites.
Interesting read about Dachau (which, although a mere concentration camp, demonstrates an idea of 'complicity') whereby the camp lifted the local economy.
https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/why-the-citizens-of-dachau-did-not [Post edited 20 Jan 2017 18:15]
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| Martin McGuinness on 18:20 - Jan 20 with 2099 views | WeWereZombies |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:00 - Jan 20 by feelingblue |
Interesting to note, given the original thrust of this thread, that, the Taoiseach, Eamon de Valera visited the German Embassy in Dublin to offer his personal condolences over the death of Adolf Hitler, who had committed suicide in the Fuhrerbunker two day earlier. |
Yes, that was a massive political blunder built on a very wayward sense of respect for the dead. I have a recollection of reading that De Valera ordered the execution of an IRA committee that went to Germany during the war but Wikipedia is not verifying that for me so perhaps wishful thinking on my part. The Garda SÃochána were actively spying on the IRA for De Valera, I think we can be sure of that, as he sought to placate Churchill that Eire was in no way supporting German intentions whilst at the same time making contingency plans should Germany win the war.
One thing I did find on Wikipedia that I either never knew or had forgotten was this:
'In June 1940, to encourage the neutral Irish state to join with the Allies, Winston Churchill indicated to de Valera that the United Kingdom would push for Irish unity, but believing that Churchill could not deliver, de Valera declined the offer.[67] The British did not inform the Government of Northern Ireland that they had made the offer to the Dublin government, and De Valera's rejection was not publicised until 1970.' | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 18:21 - Jan 20 with 2094 views | feelingblue |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:07 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
Yep. And the Royal British Legion were going to oversee Hitler taking the Sudetenland too.
History makes an ass of us all as we rarely have all the facts or true perspective at the time. |
Well that isn't quite true.
When the Germans agreed to a plebiscite being held to determine the Sudetenland frontier, part of the German demand was that Czech troops were withdrawn. So there was a need for the region to be policed, and our great leader, Chamberlain, proposed that this was a role that could be fulfilled by the newly formed British Legion Volunteer Police Force.
After 5 days, the International Commission meeting in Berlin decided that no plebiscite was needed and therefore the proposed police force was redundant, and the force was disbanded 2 days later.. | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:22 - Jan 20 with 2077 views | Waterfootblue |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:07 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
Yep. And the Royal British Legion were going to oversee Hitler taking the Sudetenland too.
History makes an ass of us all as we rarely have all the facts or true perspective at the time. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp
Being an old git, not particularly good with links but you could easily search it.
Can assure you it is not a pleasant place to visit. But it does reflect where mans inhumanity to can lead, I should add also to children. I am aware that non Jewish Poles from all over Poland perished at Auschwitz.
It has been a good debate and some of us have got some facts wrong myself included, no need for anyone to be at loggerheads.
The subject matter should teach us tolerance towards others is a pretty good trait.
I have enjoyed being part of the debate, thank you all for tolerating me. | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:25 - Jan 20 with 2055 views | Darth_Koont |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:13 - Jan 20 by Raedwald_625 |
The Germans were hardly lightly to label this new type of camp with its 'showers' and 'workshop furnace' as a 'Death Camp' - but that's what it was.
The construction, maintenance and logistics of these projects would require numerous skilled and unskilled Germans to participate . Tens of Millions were transported (visible and odorous evidence), housed and publically abused - the sheer scale would suggest widely-known knowlege of such activites.
Interesting read about Dachau (which, although a mere concentration camp, demonstrates an idea of 'complicity') whereby the camp lifted the local economy.
https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/why-the-citizens-of-dachau-did-not [Post edited 20 Jan 2017 18:15]
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You're shifting and coming back to the concentration camps in Germany again.
- Auschwitz was a concentration camp - Konzentrationslager Auschwitz by name.
- I addressed the people involved re: the Manhattan Project example. The extermination aspects were minimal compared to the barracks, factories etc. and even then they were never explicitly described to those who built them. Who weren't German either for that matter.
- The Germans of course knew about the transport but that was towards the East and the war efforts there. All other details were secret.
Collectively, the Germans knew about the persecution of Jews (amongst others, of course) and were aware of deaths. There's no doubt that they knew and indeed were complicit in that. But the scale of the Holocaust and its details were deliberately kept from them. Anything else is rewriting history when we're not using the knowledge we now have. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 18:26 - Jan 20 with 2046 views | Raedwald_625 |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:22 - Jan 20 by Waterfootblue |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp
Being an old git, not particularly good with links but you could easily search it.
Can assure you it is not a pleasant place to visit. But it does reflect where mans inhumanity to can lead, I should add also to children. I am aware that non Jewish Poles from all over Poland perished at Auschwitz.
It has been a good debate and some of us have got some facts wrong myself included, no need for anyone to be at loggerheads.
The subject matter should teach us tolerance towards others is a pretty good trait.
I have enjoyed being part of the debate, thank you all for tolerating me. |
when not armed with a keyboard we are all harmless - I think. | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:28 - Jan 20 with 2035 views | WeWereZombies |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:00 - Jan 20 by feelingblue |
Interesting to note, given the original thrust of this thread, that, the Taoiseach, Eamon de Valera visited the German Embassy in Dublin to offer his personal condolences over the death of Adolf Hitler, who had committed suicide in the Fuhrerbunker two day earlier. |
Whilst not entirely relevant to your point this other snippet from Wikipedia makes a pertinent return to the plight of the Jews in the middle of the last century and De Valera's contribution towards survival:
'Éamon de Valera Forest (Hebrew: יער ×יימון דה ו×לירה) is a forest in Israel, near Nazareth. It was planted in 1966 and named after Irish politician and statesman Éamon de Valera. The planting and dedication of the forest was arranged by the Dublin Jewish community, in recognition of De Valera's consistent support for Ireland's Jews. The Irish Constitution of 1937, the drafting of which was personally supervised by De Valera the writing of the Constitution specifically gave constitutional protection to Jews. This was considered to be a necessary component to the constitution by Éamon de Valera because of the treatment of Jews elsewhere in Europe at the time. In 1948 De Valera overruled the Department of Justice when it barred one hundred and fifty refugee Jewish children from travelling to Ireland as refugees.' | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 18:31 - Jan 20 with 2021 views | Waterfootblue |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:26 - Jan 20 by Raedwald_625 |
when not armed with a keyboard we are all harmless - I think. |
I am reassured to hear that, things appear to get a little heated at times, lol | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:32 - Jan 20 with 2007 views | Darth_Koont |
| Martin McGuinness on 18:21 - Jan 20 by feelingblue |
Well that isn't quite true.
When the Germans agreed to a plebiscite being held to determine the Sudetenland frontier, part of the German demand was that Czech troops were withdrawn. So there was a need for the region to be policed, and our great leader, Chamberlain, proposed that this was a role that could be fulfilled by the newly formed British Legion Volunteer Police Force.
After 5 days, the International Commission meeting in Berlin decided that no plebiscite was needed and therefore the proposed police force was redundant, and the force was disbanded 2 days later.. |
My point being we were going in to smooth the transition of what was effectively a land grab by a dictator.
Not sure it really sent out the right message and did much to deter him from invading Poland. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 18:38 - Jan 20 with 1973 views | sparks |
| Martin McGuinness on 15:06 - Jan 20 by Archer4721 |
Well yes of course the majority in NI wished to be part of UK as the Catholics are outnumbered. |
Well quite... so the majority of people in an area dont want to be subsumed into another country... Do you see the issue with calling that "occupation"? [Post edited 20 Jan 2017 18:40]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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