| Martin McGuinness 21:05 - Jan 19 with 29339 views | vapour_trail |
Farewell to a political heavyweight. One of the key players in the creation of the current relatively peaceful northern Ireland and a man with a pretty grim past.
He will be missed. |  |
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| Martin McGuinness on 13:18 - Jan 20 with 2372 views | Ryorry |
| Martin McGuinness on 11:54 - Jan 20 by WeWereZombies |
But there is some truth in World War Two being caused by Nazis rather than Germans, Hitler's brinkmanship was unnecessary to keep the economic revival going (although necessary for the lebensraum project) and ultimately his, excuse the hackneyed word, downfall. And the first victims of the Nazis were Germans.
On the other hand it was Germans who stood idly by and let a minority government do what it wanted, Germans who knew about the death camps and pretended they didn't... |
When I was resident in S. Germany for a couple of months in the 80's, I asked one woman I became friends with (who I'd guess must have been born in the 1920s) how on earth Germans back then let the concentration camps happen? She simply said "we didn't know!" in an anguished kind of way, & I'm certain that was genuine. She was just one individual in one family of course. |  |
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| Martin McGuinness on 13:24 - Jan 20 with 2352 views | IpswichIrish |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:12 - Jan 20 by lowhouseblue |
i think there's an argument that showing their hand may have only have caused the extermination to speed up or to take different forms. i guess therefore there are ways of rationalising how the allies used the information about the camps once they had it, rather than it indicating culpability on their part. |
The Holocaust was the worst crime in human history
However, I think it's an absolute disgrace Palestinians, evicted from their land, illegally, still don't have a state |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:25 - Jan 20 with 2351 views | Darth_Koont |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:18 - Jan 20 by Ryorry |
When I was resident in S. Germany for a couple of months in the 80's, I asked one woman I became friends with (who I'd guess must have been born in the 1920s) how on earth Germans back then let the concentration camps happen? She simply said "we didn't know!" in an anguished kind of way, & I'm certain that was genuine. She was just one individual in one family of course. |
It was all pretty secretive. From the planning to the actual exterminations there was hardly even a paper trail. Added to which, the concentration camps were also work camps so difficult for outsiders to make the leap to the Final Solution. |  |
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| Martin McGuinness on 13:31 - Jan 20 with 2334 views | WD19 |
| Martin McGuinness on 10:33 - Jan 20 by Archer4721 |
What a typical TWTD thread full of nonsense from people who really haven't a clue what they're talking about.
At least the Irish lad on this thread has a first hand experience of what he's witnessed over the years which many of the people commenting on this thread haven't. |
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| Martin McGuinness on 13:35 - Jan 20 with 2322 views | WeWereZombies |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:25 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
It was all pretty secretive. From the planning to the actual exterminations there was hardly even a paper trail. Added to which, the concentration camps were also work camps so difficult for outsiders to make the leap to the Final Solution. |
Whilst it was secretive there were also plenty of opportunities for Germans to realise what was going on - as well as the rounding up of their Jewish neighbours (who were often marched through the streets in their newly straightened circumstances) there was non-military involvement in transport and administration as well as the supply chains needed for building and operating the camps.
But then again, if you are in a situation where the 'majority' will shout you down and threaten to report you it can be seen that sensible discussion would be stifled... |  |
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| Martin McGuinness on 13:38 - Jan 20 with 2319 views | sparks |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:14 - Jan 20 by IpswichIrish |
My parents were in Ireland at the time of the troubles, as was my grandad. I have addressed your point, Ireland voted overwhelmingly to be an Irish republic but 'Lord' Carson, backed by the British government of the day, bombed, shot, killed the Irish because he didn't like the result, gerrymandering it.
But saying to people just because they weren't born when an historic event happened, that their view is invalid is pathetic. |
I'm quite sure that you well understand the point about the majority in NI. Perhaps you think that all of the UK should have had a vote on Scottish independence?
My wife grew up there amidst armed checkpoints and constant fear of both sides. 3 separate significant bombings in her hometown. The last of which she heard from her bedroom as it rattled windows |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Martin McGuinness on 13:39 - Jan 20 with 2315 views | lowhouseblue |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:24 - Jan 20 by IpswichIrish |
The Holocaust was the worst crime in human history
However, I think it's an absolute disgrace Palestinians, evicted from their land, illegally, still don't have a state |
what do you see as connecting the two? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Martin McGuinness on 13:39 - Jan 20 with 2314 views | Waterfootblue |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:12 - Jan 20 by lowhouseblue |
i think there's an argument that showing their hand may have only have caused the extermination to speed up or to take different forms. i guess therefore there are ways of rationalising how the allies used the information about the camps once they had it, rather than it indicating culpability on their part. |
I would not disagree with your reasoning, "lowhouseblue". Just putting across a view put to me. It would have been difficult to have increased the level of killing, five purpose built crematoria. It all happened just before I was born, but it is good to keep the history alive. Who would be brave enough to say it could not happen again.
But we digress from the original debate, I personally think young Irish raised some valid points. Living through the Thatcher years was not a great time, did not seem an appropriate level of intervention to set a corrupt Police Force and the Military on the Miners. But I am sure I will be told it was all the fault of the miners. A Public Enquiry might have come up with a differing view. |  | | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 13:49 - Jan 20 with 2282 views | Darth_Koont |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:35 - Jan 20 by WeWereZombies |
Whilst it was secretive there were also plenty of opportunities for Germans to realise what was going on - as well as the rounding up of their Jewish neighbours (who were often marched through the streets in their newly straightened circumstances) there was non-military involvement in transport and administration as well as the supply chains needed for building and operating the camps.
But then again, if you are in a situation where the 'majority' will shout you down and threaten to report you it can be seen that sensible discussion would be stifled... |
Yes, it was a totalitarian and police state so certainly no-one was going to easily air their opinions or get very far if they did.
The real difficulty was that the German people only knew that people had been "sent East", which was true. And that most camps were work camps, also true. Most of the deaths, certainly the organized death camps and killing grounds were far away in Poland, Belorus, the Baltic States and Ukraine and were carried out by the more fanatical troops and their allies. I can hardly believe in wartime 1940s that many of the German population were even aware, and the only evidence would have been second and third-hand anecdotes. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 13:59 - Jan 20 with 2243 views | WeWereZombies |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:49 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, it was a totalitarian and police state so certainly no-one was going to easily air their opinions or get very far if they did.
The real difficulty was that the German people only knew that people had been "sent East", which was true. And that most camps were work camps, also true. Most of the deaths, certainly the organized death camps and killing grounds were far away in Poland, Belorus, the Baltic States and Ukraine and were carried out by the more fanatical troops and their allies. I can hardly believe in wartime 1940s that many of the German population were even aware, and the only evidence would have been second and third-hand anecdotes. |
I think you are giving them the benefit of the doubt that I wouldn't be prepared to give but perhaps I have been a bit too influenced by the film 'The Nasty Girl' - worth an hour and a half of anyone's time if you haven't seen it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nasty_Girl | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 14:07 - Jan 20 with 2220 views | manchego |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:38 - Jan 20 by sparks |
I'm quite sure that you well understand the point about the majority in NI. Perhaps you think that all of the UK should have had a vote on Scottish independence?
My wife grew up there amidst armed checkpoints and constant fear of both sides. 3 separate significant bombings in her hometown. The last of which she heard from her bedroom as it rattled windows |
I'm quite sure you know what gerrymandering is. It's how you rig votes isn't it. |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 14:10 - Jan 20 with 2206 views | Darth_Koont |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:59 - Jan 20 by WeWereZombies |
I think you are giving them the benefit of the doubt that I wouldn't be prepared to give but perhaps I have been a bit too influenced by the film 'The Nasty Girl' - worth an hour and a half of anyone's time if you haven't seen it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nasty_Girl |
It's similar to the Manhattan Project - Life magazine estimated that "probably no more than a few dozen men in the entire country knew the full meaning of the Manhattan Project, and perhaps only a thousand others even were aware that work on atoms was involved." Yet 100, 000 people actually worked on it. But the information was so splintered and secret that hardly anyone could put it together, not to mention the fact that this was already beyond their imagination.
Same with the Holocaust, I believe. No-one had access to the whole scale of it, nor I suspect could they even comprehend it if they did.
I'll check the film out though. Looks good. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 14:11 - Jan 20 with 2201 views | Waterfootblue |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:49 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, it was a totalitarian and police state so certainly no-one was going to easily air their opinions or get very far if they did.
The real difficulty was that the German people only knew that people had been "sent East", which was true. And that most camps were work camps, also true. Most of the deaths, certainly the organized death camps and killing grounds were far away in Poland, Belorus, the Baltic States and Ukraine and were carried out by the more fanatical troops and their allies. I can hardly believe in wartime 1940s that many of the German population were even aware, and the only evidence would have been second and third-hand anecdotes. |
I would say you are spot on, "Darth Koont". I'm sure the majority of Germans had no idea. It would also have been difficult for the soldiers to disobey orders once in the camps, I'm sure many would have had tortured minds.
To me it is a certainty that the poverty in Germany and Adolf identifying a section of society as the reason for that poverty that started the war.
It concerns me that the level of homelessness across Europe, the rise of food banks, could result in an uprising somewhere. I read through a lot of political debates on his forum and it astounds me that posters are so passionate toward the Tories or Labour. Perhaps I have lived too long and have seen too many inept Governments. It just seems to me that they are all a bunch of career politicians riding a gravy train. I remain passionate about my Football Team, as dire as things are at the moment always hope it will get better. | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 14:46 - Jan 20 with 2164 views | Townly |
It was the ruling classes, the landowners, the wealthy elite who raped Ireland with punitive rents, trade laws and a general disregard of the well-being of the Irish people as a whole. They were the cause of the hardship and the famines and the misery.
The very same ruling class dished out the same treatment to the English working/ lower classes. Exploitation, vast slum-like areas, misery.
I was in Birmingham at the time of the pub bombings and had been in the Mulberry Bush the night before.
The kids they killed were the descendants of the working classes, the very same people who had suffered similarly at the hands of the ruling classes.
The IRA got it wrong. They targeted the wrong people.
They were brainless murderers who achieved nothing with their bombs, caused suffering and death to youngsters who had nothing to do with their lot and finally they had to admit that their methods were unsuccessful and that negotiation was the only way.
McGuiness should rightfully have been imprisoned, but he was necessary in formulating the peace process. |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 15:06 - Jan 20 with 2116 views | Archer4721 |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:02 - Jan 20 by sparks |
He's 27. He was 8 or 9 when the good Friday agreement was signed. His experience must be pretty limited. His views certainly seem very one sided.
He's not acknowledged my point about the NI majority yet either. This occupation narrative has been very successful. Suspect many English folk have no idea that the majority in NI wished to be part of UK. .. |
Well yes of course the majority in NI wished to be part of UK as the Catholics are outnumbered. |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:05 - Jan 20 with 2060 views | Ryorry |
| Martin McGuinness on 14:10 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
It's similar to the Manhattan Project - Life magazine estimated that "probably no more than a few dozen men in the entire country knew the full meaning of the Manhattan Project, and perhaps only a thousand others even were aware that work on atoms was involved." Yet 100, 000 people actually worked on it. But the information was so splintered and secret that hardly anyone could put it together, not to mention the fact that this was already beyond their imagination.
Same with the Holocaust, I believe. No-one had access to the whole scale of it, nor I suspect could they even comprehend it if they did.
I'll check the film out though. Looks good. |
Very good & informative sequence of posts here, thanks DK. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 16:09 - Jan 20 with 2045 views | Raedwald_625 |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:25 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
It was all pretty secretive. From the planning to the actual exterminations there was hardly even a paper trail. Added to which, the concentration camps were also work camps so difficult for outsiders to make the leap to the Final Solution. |
Germans knew of Holocaust horror about death camps
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard
32,000 documented deaths at Dachau, in the suburbs of Munich. |  | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:18 - Jan 20 with 2020 views | brazil1982 |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:24 - Jan 20 by IpswichIrish |
The Holocaust was the worst crime in human history
However, I think it's an absolute disgrace Palestinians, evicted from their land, illegally, still don't have a state |
What's the "however" for? | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:28 - Jan 20 with 1994 views | Waterfootblue |
Very informative read Raedwald 625, thanks | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:29 - Jan 20 with 1992 views | Darth_Koont |
Dachau wasn't a death camp though. That was through sickness, slowly working people to death, camp executions etc. That's clearly disgusting but this was still throughout a war when death in troop losses and air raids was all around.
Anyway, if it was with the tacit approval of the population, why was the industrialized extermination kept so secret and the death camps kept outside of Germany - and what makes you think people knew anyway?
Germans bear responsibility but I wouldn't go so far as to say they knew what was going on. Neither the true nature of the death camps nor the scale. It's barely comprehensible now even with all the facts. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 16:29 - Jan 20 with 1988 views | Swailsey |
| Martin McGuinness on 13:10 - Jan 20 by Benters |
yh righto ! utter balls . |
Um....no it isn't.
It's been widely acknowledged that they/we did know about them, although the severity wasn't completely known. |  |
| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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| Martin McGuinness on 16:41 - Jan 20 with 1964 views | Raedwald_625 |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:29 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont |
Dachau wasn't a death camp though. That was through sickness, slowly working people to death, camp executions etc. That's clearly disgusting but this was still throughout a war when death in troop losses and air raids was all around.
Anyway, if it was with the tacit approval of the population, why was the industrialized extermination kept so secret and the death camps kept outside of Germany - and what makes you think people knew anyway?
Germans bear responsibility but I wouldn't go so far as to say they knew what was going on. Neither the true nature of the death camps nor the scale. It's barely comprehensible now even with all the facts. |
it was you confusing concentration camps with death camps.
32,000 documented deaths in the suburbs of German's second city - and nobody really knew? - you don't get much right do you?
'and what makes you think people knew anyway?' Did you read the report? Or, do you know better?
You can not keep applying absolutes to your prejudices: in this case re: saying Germans were in the dark about the plight of Jews and prisoners. Certainly when it comes to Dachau (concentration camp) connivance was widely practised. | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:51 - Jan 20 with 1948 views | Ryorry |
You could simply have pointed this opposing view out to me of course. | |
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| Martin McGuinness on 16:52 - Jan 20 with 1939 views | Raedwald_625 |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:51 - Jan 20 by Ryorry |
You could simply have pointed this opposing view out to me of course. |
sorry. | | | |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:58 - Jan 20 with 1905 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Martin McGuinness on 16:41 - Jan 20 by Raedwald_625 |
it was you confusing concentration camps with death camps.
32,000 documented deaths in the suburbs of German's second city - and nobody really knew? - you don't get much right do you?
'and what makes you think people knew anyway?' Did you read the report? Or, do you know better?
You can not keep applying absolutes to your prejudices: in this case re: saying Germans were in the dark about the plight of Jews and prisoners. Certainly when it comes to Dachau (concentration camp) connivance was widely practised. |
Correct.
"Almost every community in Germany had members taken away to these camps. Newspapers continually reported "the removal of the enemies of the Reich to concentration camps." As early as 1935, a jingle went around: "Dear God, make me dumb, That I may not to Dachau come" ("Lieber Herr Gott, mach mich stumm, Das ich nicht nach Dachau komm'").
Maybe DK is a bit embarrassed that the SNP were supportive of Hitler during World War 2. [Post edited 20 Jan 2017 16:59]
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