| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. 23:14 - Jan 20 with 6501 views | GunnsAirkick |
Let me start by saying I consider myself left-wing; I have always voted Labour and I voted for Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party Leadership Election around a year and a half ago (not the recent one though, I abstained). I'm an active member of my local Labour Party group where I administer a Website and leaflet.
I've seen a few posts on here tonight which leave me shaking my head. The blanket image cultivated from some that if you voted for Trump or Brexit that you're a racist, uneducated oik has to stop.
Trump won because he focused on on downtrodden working class people who felt they have been left behind. I think he's a colossal a**ehole with some disgusting views but that is what he did. The same can be said of the Brexit vote. People on the left seem so so obsessed with certain fringe issues that they forget their bread and butter; the working classes of their own country. I'm not for one minute saying that these other issues don't matter, but prioritisation of issues that matter to what should be your core vote does.
If people on the left continue with this inverse snobbery it will only make the Trumps of this world and the right even stronger. I don't know how some cannot see this. |  | | |  |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:23 - Jan 21 with 1817 views | m14_blue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:16 - Jan 21 by unbelievablue |
People are morons. |
People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people. |  | | |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:25 - Jan 21 with 1810 views | Archer4721 |
Good post and there's a lot in what you say.
The working class have been trodden on now for many years and this is what swung the Brexit and Trump vote.It seems the establishment are disgusted with them for voting against their wishes. Re Brexit Cameron and co badly misjudged how badly disliked they were by many people and a lot of the anti vote was aimed at him.
You see when the system doesn't work for you and you have nothing, you have nothing to lose from change.People who are well off,live in their nice cosy world are very sceptical of change, it's the unknown and they're scared of losing what they have. |  | | |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:26 - Jan 21 with 1794 views | DanTheMan |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:06 - Jan 21 by BergholtBru |
A "national socialist"?? What was Stalin? |
Really?
Stalin was a communist. There will be people who argue he wasn't because of his totalitarianism but he was. Doesn't make all communists bad and many of the left don't admire him.
National Socialist name came from the origins of the party, it was just a name that people would like. I don't recall Hitler giving the means of productions to the workers. He disliked Socialism and Bolshevism.
If you really think the name is important, then North Korea is actually a democratic republic. |  |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:31 - Jan 21 with 1771 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:04 - Jan 21 by DanTheMan |
"Hitler was indeed a socialist."
No he wasn't. He despised Socialism, which is why he murdered most of the socialists in his party during Night of the Long Knives. |
He despised communism. He was a National Socialist.
Many of Hitlers ideas regarding Jews, Blacks and Eugenics were shared by the darlings of thew British left pre World War 2.
John Maynard Keynes, for example, served on the Eugenics Society and was its director. He endorsed legalised birth control because the working class was too "drunken and ignorant" to be trusted to keep its own numbers down.
George Bernard Shaw was a Eugenicist who said "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." and described Jews as “the real enemy, the invader from the East, the ruffian, the oriental parasite.”? How very Adolf Hitler.
Bertrand Russell for coming up the idea that the state issue colour-coded “procreation tickets.” Those who dared breed with holders of a different-coloured ticket would face a heavy fine? Very racists stuff.
Hyek devoted an entire chapter to the socialist roots of Socialism in the Road to Serfdom.
Mosley formed his New Party of Blackshirts with other 6 other Labour MP's, after resigning from the Labour government when the cabinet rejected his "Mosley Memorandum", a document supported by Aneurin Bevan and which Labour Minister Dick Crossman described as "whole generation ahead of Labour thinking"
And of course Mussolini was a leading socialist in Italy for years before forming his fascist party.
All of this seems to have been conveniently swept under the carpet. |  |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:34 - Jan 21 with 1753 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 08:22 - Jan 21 by Dubtractor |
Not all of us! |
You're only an occasional visitor these days mate. Those who shout the loudest on here with tedious repetition drown your sensible posts on the subject. | |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:36 - Jan 21 with 1730 views | lowhouseblue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:25 - Jan 21 by Archer4721 |
Good post and there's a lot in what you say.
The working class have been trodden on now for many years and this is what swung the Brexit and Trump vote.It seems the establishment are disgusted with them for voting against their wishes. Re Brexit Cameron and co badly misjudged how badly disliked they were by many people and a lot of the anti vote was aimed at him.
You see when the system doesn't work for you and you have nothing, you have nothing to lose from change.People who are well off,live in their nice cosy world are very sceptical of change, it's the unknown and they're scared of losing what they have. |
and the working class consider that they've now been abandoned by corbyn's labour
https://order-order.com/2017/01/19/tories-lead-labour-north/ |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:40 - Jan 21 with 1698 views | GlasgowBlue |
It's ok. George Galloway has offered to stand in Stoke as he thinks he is Corbyn's only hope of keeping the seat. | |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:43 - Jan 21 with 1701 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:25 - Jan 21 by Archer4721 |
Good post and there's a lot in what you say.
The working class have been trodden on now for many years and this is what swung the Brexit and Trump vote.It seems the establishment are disgusted with them for voting against their wishes. Re Brexit Cameron and co badly misjudged how badly disliked they were by many people and a lot of the anti vote was aimed at him.
You see when the system doesn't work for you and you have nothing, you have nothing to lose from change.People who are well off,live in their nice cosy world are very sceptical of change, it's the unknown and they're scared of losing what they have. |
You really don't get it do you. The working class are not the down trodden masses living in a system that doesn't t work for them and who have nothing. This is what the socialist elite can't seem to grasp or accept |  | | |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:46 - Jan 21 with 1678 views | imsureazzure |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:25 - Jan 21 by Archer4721 |
Good post and there's a lot in what you say.
The working class have been trodden on now for many years and this is what swung the Brexit and Trump vote.It seems the establishment are disgusted with them for voting against their wishes. Re Brexit Cameron and co badly misjudged how badly disliked they were by many people and a lot of the anti vote was aimed at him.
You see when the system doesn't work for you and you have nothing, you have nothing to lose from change.People who are well off,live in their nice cosy world are very sceptical of change, it's the unknown and they're scared of losing what they have. |
By the same token, the northern vote for Brexit was helped by the fact that Corbyn voted and campaigned for remain.
He is not liked in the northern heartlands. |  | | |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:52 - Jan 21 with 1650 views | StokieBlue |
Labours own canvasing is suggesting they will lose Copeland to the Tories. If it happens JC will be the first opposition leader to lose a by-election to the government in 35 years.
Tells you everything.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:54 - Jan 21 with 1637 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:52 - Jan 21 by StokieBlue |
Labours own canvasing is suggesting they will lose Copeland to the Tories. If it happens JC will be the first opposition leader to lose a by-election to the government in 35 years.
Tells you everything.
SB |
And Copeland has been a Labour held seat since the 1930's. | |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:57 - Jan 21 with 1639 views | Guthrum |
I don't entirely agree.
Firstly in the sense that it's not a specifically left-wing problem. These issues have been building for many years and all sides are at fault.
Secondly I believe it has less to do with focussing on minor issues as with expectations and communication. It is the presentation of broader issues where people have been left behind, or, rather, out in the cold.
The people have not changed. All they want is food, comfort, peace and security. They have been promised all of this and a great deal more - generous prosperity, even - by successive governments and their would-be replacements. They enjoy a general standard of living well above that of their grandparents' generation and before.
But the situation has. The promises were founded on sand and the system broke down when debt levels (particularly in the housing sector) became unsustainable. Conventional politicians switched to a message of bleak austerity, stretching far into the future. Virtually no warning was given, things were said to be hunky dory right up to the moment the axe fell. Is it surprising that people are scared and angry?
Then along came a number of often somewhat unconventional operators who made traditional-style promises of better times ahead if their theories are adopted. Some aspects of their rhetoric or personal conduct might be deeply unpalatable, but people have always been prepared to turn a blind eye to such things in exchange for security.
Now, probably nobody on the planet has the knowlege and expertise to be able to definitively say that projects such as Trumpism or Brexit will not work, that conditions will not improve. Many experts are skeptical, but they cannot be absolutely sure. How can the ordinary man on the street, no idiot, but without a lifetime's study of economics, be even remotely expected to come to a firm conclusion? So they plump for the things they've always wanted, the promise of food, comfort, peace and security.
From their point of view, it has to be worth a try. Things are already getting worse (relative to their position a few years ago). The choice is to risk either the grim struggle if the Trumps and Brexiteers prove to be wrong, or the grim struggle promised by the conventional politicians. No brainer - one at least has a hope of something better attached, the other does not, however "realistic" it claims to be. And the conventional politicians misled (albeit, perhaps, unwittingly and with the best intentions) before, why believe they are not doing so now? |  |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 10:03 - Jan 21 with 1619 views | GunnsAirkick |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 00:31 - Jan 21 by factual_blue |
I'd say Trump and the brexiteers won because they exploited the simplistic fact-free approach the modern press has increasingly embraced as the world has got more and more complicated. This is seen in the reporting of science (the unending stream of stories about cures for cancer) as much as in the simplistic reporting of current affairs.
Inexorably western society has - and is - becoming further and further removed from the rationality and empiricism that has guided us since the Enlightment. That flight from rationality is why 'we are all sick of experts', which is really saying 'this is all getting to complicated to explain to you properly', so we'll make stuff up as it suits us. If we leave the EU, we'll build a hospital a week with the money we save. Unhappy about Mexican immigrants? We'll build a wall'.
Too many people don't want to listen to reason and complexity any more. Those who tell them there's a simple solution are the ones who are treating them like idiots.
I've had too much to drink. Good night. |
Just to clarify I think Trump is horrible. He's said some downright awful things, I wouldn't have voted for him in a million years. However his key policy was bringing industry back to some of the more deprived states (in that respect). It remains to be seen whether he will be able to keep that pledge but it is certainly one of the more viable ones and I think why some voted for him over Clinton (despite some of the awful things he said). There was a guy on BBC News from Pennsylvania who said he voted for him purely on that issue (even though he didn't like his divisive rhetoric). Clinton largely ignored the concerns of these people. These are the sort of people I'm talking about, don't get me wrong some who voted for him will be thick bigots but making that assumption in advance is just ignorant. I'm not the only one to have noticed this, renowned right-wing commentator Michael Moore noticed it months ago. He also predicted a Trump win. [Post edited 21 Jan 2017 10:11]
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 10:04 - Jan 21 with 1613 views | DanTheMan |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:31 - Jan 21 by GlasgowBlue |
He despised communism. He was a National Socialist.
Many of Hitlers ideas regarding Jews, Blacks and Eugenics were shared by the darlings of thew British left pre World War 2.
John Maynard Keynes, for example, served on the Eugenics Society and was its director. He endorsed legalised birth control because the working class was too "drunken and ignorant" to be trusted to keep its own numbers down.
George Bernard Shaw was a Eugenicist who said "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." and described Jews as “the real enemy, the invader from the East, the ruffian, the oriental parasite.”? How very Adolf Hitler.
Bertrand Russell for coming up the idea that the state issue colour-coded “procreation tickets.” Those who dared breed with holders of a different-coloured ticket would face a heavy fine? Very racists stuff.
Hyek devoted an entire chapter to the socialist roots of Socialism in the Road to Serfdom.
Mosley formed his New Party of Blackshirts with other 6 other Labour MP's, after resigning from the Labour government when the cabinet rejected his "Mosley Memorandum", a document supported by Aneurin Bevan and which Labour Minister Dick Crossman described as "whole generation ahead of Labour thinking"
And of course Mussolini was a leading socialist in Italy for years before forming his fascist party.
All of this seems to have been conveniently swept under the carpet. |
He was not a socialist. You will find not find many historians who will agree that he was. He despised socialism and communism. If anything his style of "socialism" was based on race and not class, which to me is pretty fundamental.
I'm not sure what any of the following people have to do with this. Eugenics was incredibly popular after WW1 and although it had begun to decline by the time Hitler was about, it wasn't until the atrocities were shown that it really died.
Keynes definitely had problems with some race aspects but again after the war was pretty critical against those who didn't take a stand against Hitler. He was also born in 1883, so it's hardly surprising that his views on race are not modern.
Goerge Bernard Shaw was born in 1856, again it is hardly surprising his views on race aren't modern. Not sure what he has to do with the Nazi party.
Again Russell has nothing to do with the Nazi party. He supported Eugenics, I'm not sure what point you're making though. He was born at a time it was popular.
Fascism and Nazism do have their roots in Socialism. That doesn't make them socialist. One could argue that capitalism has it's roots in Feudalism, that doesn't make capitalists fuedalists.
I could go on here but the original point is that Hitler was not a socialist. He literally murdered them all in Night of the Long Knives. He used socialism as a tool to get people on board and to consolidate power, nothing more.
Mussolini being a Socialist in his early years is hardly swept under the carpet. Anyone with a small knowledge of the period knows this.
I'm sorry but if you're trying to prove Hitler was a socialist you are flat out wrong. | |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 10:42 - Jan 21 with 1541 views | CaptMickMills |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 23:29 - Jan 20 by IpswichIrish |
I disagree
I voted for Corbyn twice
Corbyn, even though the media barons like that total scumbag Murdoch hate him, has relentlessly joined 'the working class' on picket lines, protests, voted against wars, doesn't support useless nukes. He supports trade unions, all in the best interests of the working class.
Trump wouldn't have won in the UK, Farage, another fraud who is a millionaire claiming to hate the establishment, while begging for a knighthood, entry into the lords and a job with the orange pervert Trump, would be all out gunning to be PM if that worked.
New Labour never had any interest in workers. They were lead by the war criminal liar Bliar who hated trade unions, and his other anti Labour mate Campbell's spinning made many lose faith in politics, along with the two liars Straw and Mandelson.
I don't by the 'left behind by the political elite' stuff to be honest, Trump is the elite, a billionaire liar, bigot, scumbag who has never lived in the real world. And Theresa May, who will be groveling to Trump, is also an elite, in power. |
Ignoring Iraq War a different topic. Blair's government got the correct balance between policies for the poorest in society and encouraging business and wealth creation. Realistically you need to do both. Went wrong with Brown who lost the plot. Britain was obviously as a whole better off under Blair. I am a social democrat by inclination and have voted for all 3 main parties at different times. I would never vote for Labour led by incompetent Corbin. I respect him for consistently keeping to his views over many years but no way is he a leader. So we have unelectable Labour, invisible Liberals allowing the Tories to get away with all sorts including destroying the NHS | | | |
| arf (n/t) on 10:50 - Jan 21 with 1537 views | Dyland |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:23 - Jan 21 by m14_blue |
People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people. |
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| Indeed on 10:56 - Jan 21 with 1512 views | Dyland |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 10:04 - Jan 21 by DanTheMan |
He was not a socialist. You will find not find many historians who will agree that he was. He despised socialism and communism. If anything his style of "socialism" was based on race and not class, which to me is pretty fundamental.
I'm not sure what any of the following people have to do with this. Eugenics was incredibly popular after WW1 and although it had begun to decline by the time Hitler was about, it wasn't until the atrocities were shown that it really died.
Keynes definitely had problems with some race aspects but again after the war was pretty critical against those who didn't take a stand against Hitler. He was also born in 1883, so it's hardly surprising that his views on race are not modern.
Goerge Bernard Shaw was born in 1856, again it is hardly surprising his views on race aren't modern. Not sure what he has to do with the Nazi party.
Again Russell has nothing to do with the Nazi party. He supported Eugenics, I'm not sure what point you're making though. He was born at a time it was popular.
Fascism and Nazism do have their roots in Socialism. That doesn't make them socialist. One could argue that capitalism has it's roots in Feudalism, that doesn't make capitalists fuedalists.
I could go on here but the original point is that Hitler was not a socialist. He literally murdered them all in Night of the Long Knives. He used socialism as a tool to get people on board and to consolidate power, nothing more.
Mussolini being a Socialist in his early years is hardly swept under the carpet. Anyone with a small knowledge of the period knows this.
I'm sorry but if you're trying to prove Hitler was a socialist you are flat out wrong. |
I think the problem is the title National Socialist German Workers' Party.
Certainly Hitler was not a socialist under any current intended meaning of the word. | |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 11:14 - Jan 21 with 1489 views | Darth_Koont |
"the working class consider that they've now been abandoned by corbyn's labour"
Yet they were actually abandoned 20 years ago by a Labour party who sought power through a middle-ground, middle-class shift. After all, that's where the marginals could be won.
And it's actually both right and left. British politicians have sold their soul to expediency, saying whatever they think will get them into power. It's that political ratings game of point-scoring and swerving that the political parties, media and far too many blogging fanboys have embraced that has led us to where we are today.
My only hope is that with this race to the bottom that enough people start demanding more integrity and intelligence from their politicians and media (Kuenssberg and similar need to stop getting so moist over the game for starters). After all, politics has no practical value if it doesn't appeal to our own and society's better nature. |  |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 11:21 - Jan 21 with 1474 views | GunnsAirkick |
A lot of what Corbyn stands for is good and does appeal to working class voters. As an example surely you can't disagree with his current campaigning on the NHS?
Where he falls down for me is on his general incompetence to deliver focused and coherent policy positions (bar some exceptions, the example above being one). He is also obsessed with fringe policies which most people either don't care about or think are just plain mad (the unrealistic Wage Cap policy being a good example); he can't deliver a clear message on those either! | | | |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 11:27 - Jan 21 with 1441 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 11:21 - Jan 21 by GunnsAirkick |
A lot of what Corbyn stands for is good and does appeal to working class voters. As an example surely you can't disagree with his current campaigning on the NHS?
Where he falls down for me is on his general incompetence to deliver focused and coherent policy positions (bar some exceptions, the example above being one). He is also obsessed with fringe policies which most people either don't care about or think are just plain mad (the unrealistic Wage Cap policy being a good example); he can't deliver a clear message on those either! |
But a recent poll showed the public trust May more than Corbyn to run the NHS so his message isn't cutting through.
I can only conclude that if he isn't trusted to run the economy then how can he fund the NHS? | |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 11:32 - Jan 21 with 1416 views | Darth_Koont |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:57 - Jan 21 by Guthrum |
I don't entirely agree.
Firstly in the sense that it's not a specifically left-wing problem. These issues have been building for many years and all sides are at fault.
Secondly I believe it has less to do with focussing on minor issues as with expectations and communication. It is the presentation of broader issues where people have been left behind, or, rather, out in the cold.
The people have not changed. All they want is food, comfort, peace and security. They have been promised all of this and a great deal more - generous prosperity, even - by successive governments and their would-be replacements. They enjoy a general standard of living well above that of their grandparents' generation and before.
But the situation has. The promises were founded on sand and the system broke down when debt levels (particularly in the housing sector) became unsustainable. Conventional politicians switched to a message of bleak austerity, stretching far into the future. Virtually no warning was given, things were said to be hunky dory right up to the moment the axe fell. Is it surprising that people are scared and angry?
Then along came a number of often somewhat unconventional operators who made traditional-style promises of better times ahead if their theories are adopted. Some aspects of their rhetoric or personal conduct might be deeply unpalatable, but people have always been prepared to turn a blind eye to such things in exchange for security.
Now, probably nobody on the planet has the knowlege and expertise to be able to definitively say that projects such as Trumpism or Brexit will not work, that conditions will not improve. Many experts are skeptical, but they cannot be absolutely sure. How can the ordinary man on the street, no idiot, but without a lifetime's study of economics, be even remotely expected to come to a firm conclusion? So they plump for the things they've always wanted, the promise of food, comfort, peace and security.
From their point of view, it has to be worth a try. Things are already getting worse (relative to their position a few years ago). The choice is to risk either the grim struggle if the Trumps and Brexiteers prove to be wrong, or the grim struggle promised by the conventional politicians. No brainer - one at least has a hope of something better attached, the other does not, however "realistic" it claims to be. And the conventional politicians misled (albeit, perhaps, unwittingly and with the best intentions) before, why believe they are not doing so now? |
Good post.
Our politicians (here and in the US I would say) have been talking a good game for years but delivering very little. Perhaps because they just cannot address that they are nowadays too small a part of these larger forces that actually shape the modern world (globalization, market forces, digitalization, information access, democratization, extremism etc.)
Not surprising that in a world of making big, undeliverable promises to solve confusing problems that more unscrupulous politicians will come in and make even bigger, more simplistic promises. | |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 11:46 - Jan 21 with 1390 views | eireblue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 09:31 - Jan 21 by GlasgowBlue |
He despised communism. He was a National Socialist.
Many of Hitlers ideas regarding Jews, Blacks and Eugenics were shared by the darlings of thew British left pre World War 2.
John Maynard Keynes, for example, served on the Eugenics Society and was its director. He endorsed legalised birth control because the working class was too "drunken and ignorant" to be trusted to keep its own numbers down.
George Bernard Shaw was a Eugenicist who said "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." and described Jews as “the real enemy, the invader from the East, the ruffian, the oriental parasite.”? How very Adolf Hitler.
Bertrand Russell for coming up the idea that the state issue colour-coded “procreation tickets.” Those who dared breed with holders of a different-coloured ticket would face a heavy fine? Very racists stuff.
Hyek devoted an entire chapter to the socialist roots of Socialism in the Road to Serfdom.
Mosley formed his New Party of Blackshirts with other 6 other Labour MP's, after resigning from the Labour government when the cabinet rejected his "Mosley Memorandum", a document supported by Aneurin Bevan and which Labour Minister Dick Crossman described as "whole generation ahead of Labour thinking"
And of course Mussolini was a leading socialist in Italy for years before forming his fascist party.
All of this seems to have been conveniently swept under the carpet. |
I don't think people from that time should be judged by today's standards. |  | | |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 11:48 - Jan 21 with 1389 views | lowhouseblue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 11:21 - Jan 21 by GunnsAirkick |
A lot of what Corbyn stands for is good and does appeal to working class voters. As an example surely you can't disagree with his current campaigning on the NHS?
Where he falls down for me is on his general incompetence to deliver focused and coherent policy positions (bar some exceptions, the example above being one). He is also obsessed with fringe policies which most people either don't care about or think are just plain mad (the unrealistic Wage Cap policy being a good example); he can't deliver a clear message on those either! |
true. but the poll indicates that he doesn't appeal to working class voters. there's no point being right about the nhs if you're not trusted on the economy and people think that you couldn't run a whelk stall. trust and competence are the things you need to establish before people listen to anything else. he has achieved the exact opposite. while the labour party has a lead on the nhs, people trust corbyn on the nhs much less than they do may.
his election and re-election fits exactly with your more general point about the left and trump. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 13:10 - Jan 21 with 1327 views | eireblue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 10:04 - Jan 21 by DanTheMan |
He was not a socialist. You will find not find many historians who will agree that he was. He despised socialism and communism. If anything his style of "socialism" was based on race and not class, which to me is pretty fundamental.
I'm not sure what any of the following people have to do with this. Eugenics was incredibly popular after WW1 and although it had begun to decline by the time Hitler was about, it wasn't until the atrocities were shown that it really died.
Keynes definitely had problems with some race aspects but again after the war was pretty critical against those who didn't take a stand against Hitler. He was also born in 1883, so it's hardly surprising that his views on race are not modern.
Goerge Bernard Shaw was born in 1856, again it is hardly surprising his views on race aren't modern. Not sure what he has to do with the Nazi party.
Again Russell has nothing to do with the Nazi party. He supported Eugenics, I'm not sure what point you're making though. He was born at a time it was popular.
Fascism and Nazism do have their roots in Socialism. That doesn't make them socialist. One could argue that capitalism has it's roots in Feudalism, that doesn't make capitalists fuedalists.
I could go on here but the original point is that Hitler was not a socialist. He literally murdered them all in Night of the Long Knives. He used socialism as a tool to get people on board and to consolidate power, nothing more.
Mussolini being a Socialist in his early years is hardly swept under the carpet. Anyone with a small knowledge of the period knows this.
I'm sorry but if you're trying to prove Hitler was a socialist you are flat out wrong. |
Also, to add to this I think GB has incorrectly assumed the Russel statement was to do with race.
I would be interested to see if GB can come up with the original quote and the full context from Russell himself.
I suspect he has just copied something from the internet and added his own "Very racists" comment.
Of course what would really interesting is if there has been any modern thinking on stuff that falls under the "Eugenics" definition. | | | |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 13:17 - Jan 21 with 1313 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Left-wing arrogance has given the world President Donald Trump. on 11:46 - Jan 21 by eireblue |
I don't think people from that time should be judged by today's standards. |
But they should be judged equally by the standards of their time. | |
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