| Trump - really, I mean really?? 08:31 - Jan 22 with 16202 views | unstableblue |
People are really flabbergasted and concerned this morning in the US. Is he really going to be like this??
Basically he is claiming 1.5million people for his inauguration, he is stating it's is ghe largest turnout ever. He is stating the media are lying that it was only 250k, and much lower than Obamas.
He won't even acknowkedge the protest movement - which was larger. He's basically p!ssed about this and is blaming the media. His press secretary has carried on the line and the attack.
But photos and importantly the Washington mass transit numbers prove the press news.
Trump is lying! Like he did throughout his campaign. But now he is president.
It is shocking. It is like a banana republic.
And to think there were muppets on here lauding him. [Post edited 22 Jan 2017 8:32]
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 00:28 - Jan 23 with 2971 views | Ryorry |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 00:23 - Jan 23 by J2BLUE |
Is there anywhere I can read about fracking? I don't know much about it. |
Oooh, how best to summarise it fairly - I'd have to think about that and get a balanced but brief, digestible, compilation together for you. Unfortunately I have a particularly busy 24 hrs ahead, was just about to shower, feed dogs & self with early start tomoz, if you can wait till tomorrow night or Tues? |  |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 00:29 - Jan 23 with 2967 views | Binner |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 00:07 - Jan 23 by ElderGrizzly |
We can all sleep soundly, Trump wants to set up his own security and intelligence services.
Now that is worrying
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Yes. He can put them in black shirts so that they are easily recognised; and call them the 'Special Service', or 'SS' for short... |  |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 00:30 - Jan 23 with 2956 views | J2BLUE |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 00:28 - Jan 23 by Ryorry |
Oooh, how best to summarise it fairly - I'd have to think about that and get a balanced but brief, digestible, compilation together for you. Unfortunately I have a particularly busy 24 hrs ahead, was just about to shower, feed dogs & self with early start tomoz, if you can wait till tomorrow night or Tues? |
That would be great thank you. No rush. |  |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 01:01 - Jan 23 with 2930 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 00:23 - Jan 23 by J2BLUE |
Is there anywhere I can read about fracking? I don't know much about it. |
You're better off googling it and going through the pros and cons to see where you land. It's obviously a hugely polarized debate with its share of fanboys and critics plus scientific data that proves each side's arguments.
But the essential thing is to compare fracking with offshore/land drilling for oil and gas as well as coal mining and nuclear power - the different effects of production on the local environment and political/social stability as well as the levels of emissions from the fuels produced.
All hydrocarbon fuels are bad and we should really be focusing on renewables but, until then, some are worse than others. |  |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 01:04 - Jan 23 with 2916 views | J2BLUE |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 01:01 - Jan 23 by Darth_Koont |
You're better off googling it and going through the pros and cons to see where you land. It's obviously a hugely polarized debate with its share of fanboys and critics plus scientific data that proves each side's arguments.
But the essential thing is to compare fracking with offshore/land drilling for oil and gas as well as coal mining and nuclear power - the different effects of production on the local environment and political/social stability as well as the levels of emissions from the fuels produced.
All hydrocarbon fuels are bad and we should really be focusing on renewables but, until then, some are worse than others. |
Agree and I will do that but wondered what Ryorry had seen to be so strongly against it. | |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 01:14 - Jan 23 with 2894 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 01:04 - Jan 23 by J2BLUE |
Agree and I will do that but wondered what Ryorry had seen to be so strongly against it. |
Possibly "Gasland" which is an earnest but fairly flawed documentary. And it's a local issue up her way too.
The other side of the argument is that it's a safer technique than the documentary alleged and far below drinking water sources. The fuel is also "better" for the environment with lower emissions than oil. And while I do know it industrializes some of our countryside, it's a far cry from the horrors oil has unleashed on people, animals and places around the world.
None of which means we shouldn't be putting a lot more money and effort into renewables and taking hydrocarbons off the table completely. | |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 01:48 - Jan 23 with 2864 views | Ryorry |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 01:14 - Jan 23 by Darth_Koont |
Possibly "Gasland" which is an earnest but fairly flawed documentary. And it's a local issue up her way too.
The other side of the argument is that it's a safer technique than the documentary alleged and far below drinking water sources. The fuel is also "better" for the environment with lower emissions than oil. And while I do know it industrializes some of our countryside, it's a far cry from the horrors oil has unleashed on people, animals and places around the world.
None of which means we shouldn't be putting a lot more money and effort into renewables and taking hydrocarbons off the table completely. |
Or possibly *not* (Gaslands). I haven't even seen most of that.
"earnest but fairly flawed" - good description of your own post.
J2 would indeed be better off googling it than swallowing all that.
I can put up thousands of peer-reviewed academic articles and abstracts refuting your middle paragraph, but the evidence is that you didn't even bother to open the links to the two compendiums I put up last time this was discussed.
I at least was going to put up a *balanced* post of the arguments both for (albeit I think there's only one genuine one for, namely a short-term shortfall) and against | |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 02:22 - Jan 23 with 2825 views | Ryorry |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 01:04 - Jan 23 by J2BLUE |
Agree and I will do that but wondered what Ryorry had seen to be so strongly against it. |
The short answer to that is "years of unbiased research", both as someone who cares about the future of the planet, and as someone who could be affected locally (quite apart from the technical, health & environmental issues, a local businessman spent a day ringing round insurance companies, and couldn't find a single one that would give cover for any home damaged by fracking). I'd have been delighted to have found any positives in favour, but didn't.
I abhor the loose /sweeping generalisations/accusations that are bandied about from both sides, and see one of my functions as trying to keep my fellow anti-frackers' arguments grounded in politely repeated, credible, scientific evidence, so that we are taken seriously, rather than (as is more usual) sneeringly dismissed as "loony-left", "nimbys" etc. Not making claims to be expert, very far from that, many other antis are much more knowledgeable & eloquent than myself.
May not have time for further replies until at least tomorrow night now. [Post edited 23 Jan 2017 2:24]
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 06:49 - Jan 23 with 2731 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 01:48 - Jan 23 by Ryorry |
Or possibly *not* (Gaslands). I haven't even seen most of that.
"earnest but fairly flawed" - good description of your own post.
J2 would indeed be better off googling it than swallowing all that.
I can put up thousands of peer-reviewed academic articles and abstracts refuting your middle paragraph, but the evidence is that you didn't even bother to open the links to the two compendiums I put up last time this was discussed.
I at least was going to put up a *balanced* post of the arguments both for (albeit I think there's only one genuine one for, namely a short-term shortfall) and against |
If you think the only advantage is a "short-term shortfall" then you should work a bit harder to understand the pro arguments. What about the lower emissions of burning natural gas? What about the clear environmental damage from oil exploration and distribution? The human cost in the Middle East alone?
Of course, there's no disagreeing with the main anti-fracking arguments in isolation. But not without the wider context of fuel exploration, production and consumption. | |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 08:35 - Jan 23 with 2655 views | gordon |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 06:49 - Jan 23 by Darth_Koont |
If you think the only advantage is a "short-term shortfall" then you should work a bit harder to understand the pro arguments. What about the lower emissions of burning natural gas? What about the clear environmental damage from oil exploration and distribution? The human cost in the Middle East alone?
Of course, there's no disagreeing with the main anti-fracking arguments in isolation. But not without the wider context of fuel exploration, production and consumption. |
Just on the subject of emissions, of course natural gas is the least emitting fossil fuel. The problem with fracking is the extent to which methane escapes from the ground to the atmosphere during the extraction process (methane warming effect is approx. 80 times worse than Co2 I think).
As I understand it there has been a spike in methane emissions in America over the last 10 years, and there is a scientific debate going on now about the extent to which it can be attributed to fracking, or other sources. Unless I've missed something (which is definitely possible), assertions on the climate change effect of fracking are premature. [Post edited 23 Jan 2017 8:35]
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 08:54 - Jan 23 with 2635 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 08:35 - Jan 23 by gordon |
Just on the subject of emissions, of course natural gas is the least emitting fossil fuel. The problem with fracking is the extent to which methane escapes from the ground to the atmosphere during the extraction process (methane warming effect is approx. 80 times worse than Co2 I think).
As I understand it there has been a spike in methane emissions in America over the last 10 years, and there is a scientific debate going on now about the extent to which it can be attributed to fracking, or other sources. Unless I've missed something (which is definitely possible), assertions on the climate change effect of fracking are premature. [Post edited 23 Jan 2017 8:35]
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True. The overall lifecycle cost (economic and environmental) needs to be addressed and carefully monitored. I welcome that on all energy, not just to ensure we get the best and most objective perspective on conventional energy sources such as gas, oil, coal and nuclear but also because it *should* lead to a clearer focus on renewables when a more "cradle to grave" approach is taken.
On a related note, I saw the other day that the long-term figures for the new hydro-energy proposals around the Severn compare much more favourably to the cost of the Hinkley Point nuclear expansion. Even down to the cost per MWh. | |
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| UPDATE: Trump and Republican stupidity on 09:03 - Jan 23 with 2625 views | unstableblue |
"We must defeat ISIS, We will defeat ISIS"
Now what he means is militarily. Blow them up. Hook up with Russia. BOOM!
Well ISIS is the twisted grandchild of US middle-eastern policy and Russian's Afghanistani conflict. Its not just an entity its a movement.
Yes you can blow elements to smithereens. But the route of the problem has to be winning hearts and minds on the ground, of diplomacy, aid, connecting with the iranian youth, of building bridges.
You don't then go and move the US embassy to Jerusalem you frickin DUMB ASS! | |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 09:09 - Jan 23 with 2610 views | feelingblue |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 00:17 - Jan 23 by Ryorry |
It's rather weird, but the world seems so precariously balanced now that I've kinda stopped worrying - it seems pointless; and have become very focussed on actually *doing* little bits of things# - unnoticeable as an individual, but together we minnows can add up to something. #Mainly through involvement in direct action against fracking. |
I completely understand that feeling, up to a point, but it is important that our friends in America do not give up on democracy.
We, in England and Wales, have chosen, democratically, to cause serious difficulties to our economy over the long term, there's nothing much we can do about it so let's get on with our lives. We will have an election in 2020, without doubt.
The USA have taken a path which feels potentially much more dangerous. They have voted for someone who appears quite happy to ignore/deny reality in a quite different way. They need to make sure that their other elected representatives hold the president to account, properly. The Republicans need to put country before party, and I am not sure that they have the moral compass to do so. |  | | |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 09:25 - Jan 23 with 2580 views | StokieBlue |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 09:03 - Jan 22 by lowhouseblue |
oh right, so cil will be on later with youtube videos showing this. i don't care about the number of people there either. but to lie so casually and blatantly once he is in office is bizarre. |
Yes, it's totally ridiculous and self-defeating.
But his supporters won't care an iota.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 09:26 - Jan 23 with 2583 views | Vic |
Lots of arguing going on here, I fear we may lose sight of the main point of concern.
The USA has a president who makes a claim about the numbers at a meeting. When others disagree and show photos of why he angrily accuses them of lying and seeking to discredit him.
Surely that has to be deeply concerning to any sane person. It's not a matter of who's right or wrong, or interpretation of data or evidence It's the lack of discussion, the desire to simply shut down dissenting voices. |  |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 09:29 - Jan 23 with 2575 views | StokieBlue |
China is a mess as well though. It's very well hidden but they have an internal debt of x27 what the US sub prime debt was and also are burning through their currency reserves propping up the yuan.
They still have plenty of reserves left but unless they can start selling internally to the middle class then they are in for some rocky times - a property crash there is almost inevitable.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| UPDATE: Trump and Republican stupidity on 09:31 - Jan 23 with 2574 views | caught-in-limbo |
| UPDATE: Trump and Republican stupidity on 09:03 - Jan 23 by unstableblue |
"We must defeat ISIS, We will defeat ISIS"
Now what he means is militarily. Blow them up. Hook up with Russia. BOOM!
Well ISIS is the twisted grandchild of US middle-eastern policy and Russian's Afghanistani conflict. Its not just an entity its a movement.
Yes you can blow elements to smithereens. But the route of the problem has to be winning hearts and minds on the ground, of diplomacy, aid, connecting with the iranian youth, of building bridges.
You don't then go and move the US embassy to Jerusalem you frickin DUMB ASS! |
What on earth do Iranians have to do with ISIS? |  |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 09:33 - Jan 23 with 2566 views | StokieBlue |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 06:49 - Jan 23 by Darth_Koont |
If you think the only advantage is a "short-term shortfall" then you should work a bit harder to understand the pro arguments. What about the lower emissions of burning natural gas? What about the clear environmental damage from oil exploration and distribution? The human cost in the Middle East alone?
Of course, there's no disagreeing with the main anti-fracking arguments in isolation. But not without the wider context of fuel exploration, production and consumption. |
One of the best things about fracking is that is has basically destroyed one of the worst regimes on the planet - Saudi Arabia.
The Saudi's trying to destroy the frackers in the US by lowering the oil price to a level they thought would bankrupt them. Unfortunately for the Saudi's the technological developments in fracking in the US have taken the profitable price down to around 55 USD a barrel. As soon as the price rises above this loads of wells come online in the US and put a ceiling on the price.
The Saudi's have based their entirely spending plan for the next 15/20 years on 100 USD a barrel, at the current levels they don't have the money to meet their commitments and hopefully some internal strife will follow. They certainly deserve it.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 09:40 - Jan 23 with 2548 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 09:25 - Jan 23 by StokieBlue |
Yes, it's totally ridiculous and self-defeating.
But his supporters won't care an iota.
SB |
To clarify, in case there's any doubt, I am no supporter of Trump's. | |
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| UPDATE: Trump and Republican stupidity on 09:44 - Jan 23 with 2546 views | unstableblue |
| UPDATE: Trump and Republican stupidity on 09:31 - Jan 23 by caught-in-limbo |
What on earth do Iranians have to do with ISIS? |
Sorry - obviously Iran are against ISIS.
It was more on the wider loony Trump Middle East agenda
Iran actually has quite a forward looking and progressive youth movement. And I think connecting with them should be a key part of US policy.
Trump is just black and white - Iran bad, Israel good - and that means we'll reap more decades of mopping up US policy in the region. | |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 09:54 - Jan 23 with 2516 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 02:22 - Jan 23 by Ryorry |
The short answer to that is "years of unbiased research", both as someone who cares about the future of the planet, and as someone who could be affected locally (quite apart from the technical, health & environmental issues, a local businessman spent a day ringing round insurance companies, and couldn't find a single one that would give cover for any home damaged by fracking). I'd have been delighted to have found any positives in favour, but didn't.
I abhor the loose /sweeping generalisations/accusations that are bandied about from both sides, and see one of my functions as trying to keep my fellow anti-frackers' arguments grounded in politely repeated, credible, scientific evidence, so that we are taken seriously, rather than (as is more usual) sneeringly dismissed as "loony-left", "nimbys" etc. Not making claims to be expert, very far from that, many other antis are much more knowledgeable & eloquent than myself.
May not have time for further replies until at least tomorrow night now. [Post edited 23 Jan 2017 2:24]
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I see that Friends of the Earth was recently censured by the advertising regulator and forced to promise it will not repeat pseudo-scientific claims about the economic, environmental and health effects of fracking after they put out a scaremongering campaign leaflet warning fracking would be responsible for everything from falling house prices to asthma and cancer.
The watchdog said the anti fracking campaigner must:
Not claim that fluid used in fracking contains chemicals dangerous to human health or that it would contaminate drinking water
Not claim a US fracking site was responsible for increases in asthma rates or that the public would be at risk of equivalent increases in asthma rates in the UK
Not claim that there is an established risk of the chemicals concerned causing cancer and other conditions among the local population
Not claim that fracking will cause plummeting house prices. |  |
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| UPDATE: Trump and Republican stupidity on 10:05 - Jan 23 with 2482 views | caught-in-limbo |
| UPDATE: Trump and Republican stupidity on 09:44 - Jan 23 by unstableblue |
Sorry - obviously Iran are against ISIS.
It was more on the wider loony Trump Middle East agenda
Iran actually has quite a forward looking and progressive youth movement. And I think connecting with them should be a key part of US policy.
Trump is just black and white - Iran bad, Israel good - and that means we'll reap more decades of mopping up US policy in the region. |
OK. I don't think there's much that the US can do to connect with Iranian youth while its support of Israel remains unconditional.
I've never understood Trumps foreign policy. Wanting to repair relations with Russia while at the same time taking his current stance over China and Iran, make little sense...
Until two days ago when I read an article by Pepe Escobar entitled: "Here’s How The Trump Presidency Will Play Out" - it's the only article that has tried to make sense of Trump's foreign relations statements to date. | |
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| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 10:25 - Jan 23 with 2444 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 19:58 - Jan 22 by WeWereZombies |
Interesting read, warming to hear a world leader quoting Dickens, chilling to hear the dismissive attitude towards judicial independence. I take the point that Xi will not be a 'leader of the free world' figurehead in the way that US Presidents have become accustomed to but China has become manufacturer to the world in part by stealth and nowadays by obvious design (I saw some of the One Belt/One Road in Kenya and Ethiopia last year and it is staggering in it's scale and does not look remotely green). The other factor I have become aware of during a recent jaunt around the Pacific is just how widespread the Chinese diaspora outside the PRC is (though no 'Chinese' pubs in every town and city yet) and that these people are often English speakers when it comes to business and can have quite a British set of ideals and values (sorry, I'm including the many virtues of Ireland in British here too, is there a better phrase for all of us from this archipelago?)
What is the view on Trump from Ireland? I've read that he is unhappy with your low corporation tax rate - does he want to give green cards to more Irish citizens and drain the workers from a green and pleasant land into the corporations of grey and forbidding North American cities? |
Some major trauma here as we are sandwiched between Brexit and an isolationist American administration. Trading with the UK is going to become more difficult and Ireland is the only EU country with a land border so border control is going to become a major issue. Having the big American multinationals basically saved us becoming another Greece during the financial crisis so the Trump's policy of making it financially difficult for these companies to operate outside the US is ominous. Perfect storm looming! |  | | |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 10:41 - Jan 23 with 2418 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Trump - really, I mean really?? on 10:25 - Jan 23 by Eireannach_gorm |
Some major trauma here as we are sandwiched between Brexit and an isolationist American administration. Trading with the UK is going to become more difficult and Ireland is the only EU country with a land border so border control is going to become a major issue. Having the big American multinationals basically saved us becoming another Greece during the financial crisis so the Trump's policy of making it financially difficult for these companies to operate outside the US is ominous. Perfect storm looming! |
Or,s the UK is the ROI's largest export market, you could join us in leaving the EU and sign a free trade deal with us.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/03/ireland-should-not-rule-out-lea | |
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