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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? 11:52 - Jan 23 with 1441 viewsOxfordTH_1981

Objectively, we have had worse managers than MM - based on results - in the Evans era: both PJ and RK were looking likely to take us to Division One, and neither got anywhere near the play offs, or even 7th, as did MM. Both had a lot more money to spend - e.g. Bullard, Chopra, Bowyer etc. and yet at times the football and performances were very poor. RK didn't win a match for about the first 13 or 14 games of the season I recall.

In other words, objectively, MM has achieved a lot more with a lot less than his two predecessors - both of whom, but particularly RK, did a lot of harm to the club by mismanaging key players, and selling the likes of Rhodes when they could have been retained.

MM as we know has lost Mings, Cresswell and Murphy (and also Tommy Smith and a number of other key players through injury) and has not been able to replace them with anything other than average to below average players. That is not his fault. It is caused by Marcus Evans refusing to make the transfer revenue available to MM to buy quality.

And yet.....despite some flickers of irritation (e.g. the minor altercation with fans and RK after a home match that led partly to his dismissal), neither RK nor PJ faced the barrage of abuse and criticism at most matches from large sections of the support, even when the team was in the bottom four.

Yet MM is currently 14th - having come 7th and 6th in the previous seasons - and is getting some serious abuse, as are a number of his players. Crowds are also down by several thousand as compared to the RK and PJ era.

My point is that, even taking into account poor performances and some sterile football, MM is being treated worse by many fans than either RK or PJ, despite having achieved more.

Most Ipswich fans are not unreasonable - although of course we have our moronic/zombie element, as Sir Bobby knew only too well - so it seems to me that what is behind all of this is a mixture of immense frustration at the 15/16 years in the same division, and the continued erosion of trust and good will between the club's owner/senior management and the fans. In other words, MM is getting it in the neck for the fact that he took over later than the previous managers, and the hope and goodwill factor is now almost extinguished.

I do not believe that sacking him will put us in a better position. What manager will do better with no resources or experience of getting teams promoted?

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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 11:56 - Jan 23 with 1422 viewsGuthrum

Yes.

Edit: At least that is a major contributory factor.
[Post edited 23 Jan 2017 12:00]

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:08 - Jan 23 with 1384 viewsLankHenners

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 11:56 - Jan 23 by Guthrum

Yes.

Edit: At least that is a major contributory factor.
[Post edited 23 Jan 2017 12:00]


Also getting so close to getting out two seasons ago shifted expectations in a not insignificant amount of fans' minds, so the reaction to this current season is quite hyperbolic than the 'meh-ness' of what it actually is.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:15 - Jan 23 with 1349 viewsblueblood66

was with until the last line. So you think Micks football style is worth staying with? Did you watch Barnsley v Leeds, and how Huddersfield play, not big spenders by any stretch
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:21 - Jan 23 with 1315 viewsOxfordTH_1981

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:15 - Jan 23 by blueblood66

was with until the last line. So you think Micks football style is worth staying with? Did you watch Barnsley v Leeds, and how Huddersfield play, not big spenders by any stretch


Difficult question. It raises the tension between style of football versus results.

I heard a supporter call in on the radio on Saturday after match saying he wouldn't care if the club were relegated, as long as they played pretty football. I doubt, in truth, whether many would share that view if we were losing each week and facing relegation.

Obviously most fans want their team to play like Brazil in their hey-day, and also be successful. But MM's style wasn't a problem when we were challenging for promotion.

That said, at least then we played attacking direct football. I agree he sets up defensively these days which is a mark of his lack of confidence in the team's defence - and I agree it is not fun to watch.

I just don't think that getting rid of MM and replacing him with a less experienced manager with no more money is going to be a magic bullet.

No decent and proven manager is going to come to the club given there will be no money available to spend.
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:23 - Jan 23 with 1286 viewsReuser_is_God

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:08 - Jan 23 by LankHenners

Also getting so close to getting out two seasons ago shifted expectations in a not insignificant amount of fans' minds, so the reaction to this current season is quite hyperbolic than the 'meh-ness' of what it actually is.


The lack of progress, & resultant decline, since 14/15 is the biggest frustration I feel.

Evans out
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:28 - Jan 23 with 1262 viewsOxfordTH_1981

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:23 - Jan 23 by Reuser_is_God

The lack of progress, & resultant decline, since 14/15 is the biggest frustration I feel.


Sure - but given we have no divine right to be promoted, and that there are teams in the league with significant resources (even Norwich, who are hardly setting the world on fire even with cash) why is MM's performance worse than RK's or PJ's and why didn't they get the same treatment?

Marcus Evans is at the root of all this. He won't show his face, he appoints people to run the club who are not Ipswich supporters (they are Chelsea fans, I think) and who have no connection with the town or Suffolk. Evans won't be clear about his plans to take the club forwards and he won't allow MM to compete or to retain players.
[Post edited 23 Jan 2017 12:28]
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:28 - Jan 23 with 1249 viewsBenters

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:21 - Jan 23 by OxfordTH_1981

Difficult question. It raises the tension between style of football versus results.

I heard a supporter call in on the radio on Saturday after match saying he wouldn't care if the club were relegated, as long as they played pretty football. I doubt, in truth, whether many would share that view if we were losing each week and facing relegation.

Obviously most fans want their team to play like Brazil in their hey-day, and also be successful. But MM's style wasn't a problem when we were challenging for promotion.

That said, at least then we played attacking direct football. I agree he sets up defensively these days which is a mark of his lack of confidence in the team's defence - and I agree it is not fun to watch.

I just don't think that getting rid of MM and replacing him with a less experienced manager with no more money is going to be a magic bullet.

No decent and proven manager is going to come to the club given there will be no money available to spend.


ok then how come Lincoln played better football than town ?

Gentlybentley
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:35 - Jan 23 with 1199 viewsOxfordTH_1981

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:28 - Jan 23 by Benters

ok then how come Lincoln played better football than town ?


Because in one-off matches, history shows that smaller teams can raise their games and beat teams well above them. When we beat Blackburn 1-0 away in 95-96 (I think) they had just won the Premiership. Were we a better side than they were? No.

Lincoln would be relegated if they played 46 matches in the Championship.

And they also beat us because we were so poor.
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:37 - Jan 23 with 1189 viewsReuser_is_God

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:28 - Jan 23 by OxfordTH_1981

Sure - but given we have no divine right to be promoted, and that there are teams in the league with significant resources (even Norwich, who are hardly setting the world on fire even with cash) why is MM's performance worse than RK's or PJ's and why didn't they get the same treatment?

Marcus Evans is at the root of all this. He won't show his face, he appoints people to run the club who are not Ipswich supporters (they are Chelsea fans, I think) and who have no connection with the town or Suffolk. Evans won't be clear about his plans to take the club forwards and he won't allow MM to compete or to retain players.
[Post edited 23 Jan 2017 12:28]


We don't but we shouldn't be 10 places lower in the league 18 months after being top 6.

why is MM's performance worse than RK's or PJ's and why didn't they get the same treatment?

It's not worse but but we've come to expect more from MM (rightly so) therefore he'll naturally get scrutinised more.

Completely agree with your last para.

Evans out
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:42 - Jan 23 with 1160 viewsOxfordTH_1981

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:37 - Jan 23 by Reuser_is_God

We don't but we shouldn't be 10 places lower in the league 18 months after being top 6.

why is MM's performance worse than RK's or PJ's and why didn't they get the same treatment?

It's not worse but but we've come to expect more from MM (rightly so) therefore he'll naturally get scrutinised more.

Completely agree with your last para.


Sure, but isn't the reason for that decline out of MM's hands? He had to sell Murphy, who was plainly key to the system/team, and do you think MM would have wanted to sell him? Smith being injured, as well as others, is a problem. Even if we came 14th this season, it is 6th, 7th and 14th which is hardly a disaster. Look, I'm not saying that there isn't cause for concern, but I simply do not see the argument that getting rid of MM and appointing a manager with no experience and giving him no money is going to be better. It won't be.

Yes, I am more and more convinced that Marcus Evans' public relations is a disaster - which is ironic, given his company runs corporate seminars for PR companies. If Evans was to come out now - in the press, or on the radio, it would assuage a lot of the fans' anger. Instead, we get trite sound bites from behind the walls of the club.
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:44 - Jan 23 with 1143 viewsReuser_is_God

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:42 - Jan 23 by OxfordTH_1981

Sure, but isn't the reason for that decline out of MM's hands? He had to sell Murphy, who was plainly key to the system/team, and do you think MM would have wanted to sell him? Smith being injured, as well as others, is a problem. Even if we came 14th this season, it is 6th, 7th and 14th which is hardly a disaster. Look, I'm not saying that there isn't cause for concern, but I simply do not see the argument that getting rid of MM and appointing a manager with no experience and giving him no money is going to be better. It won't be.

Yes, I am more and more convinced that Marcus Evans' public relations is a disaster - which is ironic, given his company runs corporate seminars for PR companies. If Evans was to come out now - in the press, or on the radio, it would assuage a lot of the fans' anger. Instead, we get trite sound bites from behind the walls of the club.


I totally agree but MM is getting a lot wrong at the moment too & should be spared criticism.

The reality is that it's a lot easier to change manager than it is owner, hence the manager will get more stick.

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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 13:11 - Jan 23 with 1069 viewsTractorWood

MM dragged us up and out of decline. He made some shrewd acquisitions and got us winning with probably the closest and best team ethos in the country on a shoestring budget in 14/15. This can't be forgotten.

However, our fans constant need to compare him to his predecessors is ridiculous. Football has changed and it is a ridiculously results focussed business with bad decisions costing clubs money, time and progress. We have been consistently poor for nearly a year, not just our average results but our performances and the complete lack of creativity. We have also relied on extremely fortuitous loans in the last couple of seasons, again our playing squad who are contractually committed to report to pre-season training for 17/18 is mainly composed of young but talented, inexperienced players and ageing journeymen. We don't have enough players in their prime.

To me, MM needs to go but to think that this will cure all of the club's problems overnight is misguided. It needs to dovetailed with some reasonable investment in the spine of the side, we need a physical, sharp midfielder with a progressive range of passing, we need a 15+ goal a season striker and Tom Lawrence type advanced midfielder/winger who can create. For too long we've blamed injuries to blatantly injury prone players, it's rampant escapism and can't be indulged any longer.

Another key point is ME's involvement in every fundamental aspect of the club needs to change. We need a proper management structure who are trusted and mandated to run the club with power actually dissolved to them by ME to progress the club with pre-agreed budgets. There isn't enough transparency or rigour around who makes the decisions. We need a Director of Football who is not a head scout to join the dots.

In summary, nothing will change even with a new manager as we are reaping what has been sowed, which is years of under investment and the failure to acknowledge the necessity to pay what is necessary to keep us competitive. ME has ploughed in enough cash to keep the club alive but it's pulse is starting to fade............
[Post edited 23 Jan 2017 13:13]

I know that was then, but it could be again..
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 14:30 - Jan 23 with 965 viewsOxfordTH_1981

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 13:11 - Jan 23 by TractorWood

MM dragged us up and out of decline. He made some shrewd acquisitions and got us winning with probably the closest and best team ethos in the country on a shoestring budget in 14/15. This can't be forgotten.

However, our fans constant need to compare him to his predecessors is ridiculous. Football has changed and it is a ridiculously results focussed business with bad decisions costing clubs money, time and progress. We have been consistently poor for nearly a year, not just our average results but our performances and the complete lack of creativity. We have also relied on extremely fortuitous loans in the last couple of seasons, again our playing squad who are contractually committed to report to pre-season training for 17/18 is mainly composed of young but talented, inexperienced players and ageing journeymen. We don't have enough players in their prime.

To me, MM needs to go but to think that this will cure all of the club's problems overnight is misguided. It needs to dovetailed with some reasonable investment in the spine of the side, we need a physical, sharp midfielder with a progressive range of passing, we need a 15+ goal a season striker and Tom Lawrence type advanced midfielder/winger who can create. For too long we've blamed injuries to blatantly injury prone players, it's rampant escapism and can't be indulged any longer.

Another key point is ME's involvement in every fundamental aspect of the club needs to change. We need a proper management structure who are trusted and mandated to run the club with power actually dissolved to them by ME to progress the club with pre-agreed budgets. There isn't enough transparency or rigour around who makes the decisions. We need a Director of Football who is not a head scout to join the dots.

In summary, nothing will change even with a new manager as we are reaping what has been sowed, which is years of under investment and the failure to acknowledge the necessity to pay what is necessary to keep us competitive. ME has ploughed in enough cash to keep the club alive but it's pulse is starting to fade............
[Post edited 23 Jan 2017 13:13]


I agree with a lot of the below - but why is it unreasonable to say that losing key players through injury has an adverse impact on the team? Not being able to play your best side is a problem for any manager.
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 15:02 - Jan 23 with 908 viewsTractorWood

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 14:30 - Jan 23 by OxfordTH_1981

I agree with a lot of the below - but why is it unreasonable to say that losing key players through injury has an adverse impact on the team? Not being able to play your best side is a problem for any manager.


It would be excusable if it weren't so predictable. Signing JW, an injury prone player whilst injured and then ruing his injuries is bad planning not bad luck.
[Post edited 23 Jan 2017 15:15]

I know that was then, but it could be again..
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 15:08 - Jan 23 with 896 viewsLankHenners

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 12:23 - Jan 23 by Reuser_is_God

The lack of progress, & resultant decline, since 14/15 is the biggest frustration I feel.


Certainly frustrating, hell yes it is, but the negativity seems quite OTT for what is essentially an average team having an average season playing less than average football.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.
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Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 18:22 - Jan 23 with 807 viewsOxfordTH_1981

Isn't much of this negativity mainly a reaction to 15 years in the Championship? on 15:02 - Jan 23 by TractorWood

It would be excusable if it weren't so predictable. Signing JW, an injury prone player whilst injured and then ruing his injuries is bad planning not bad luck.
[Post edited 23 Jan 2017 15:15]


The fans wanted him - and in any event JW is one example. What about Smith, Murphy, Hyam, Bishop, McGoldrick etc? All unavailable for large parts of the season. You can't blame MM for their absence.
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