| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:45 - Feb 17 with 1043 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:34 - Feb 17 by feelingblue |
Another swerve. |
Jesus Christ. You just accused me of insulting you by using the term budgie. At least have the balls to admit you overacted and completely misread the post.
You seem to have lost thew plot over this referendum result. |  |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:46 - Feb 17 with 1027 views | No9 |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:30 - Feb 17 by hype313 |
What's that got to do with your assertion that he is best place to understand just how devastating bad intelligence can be? |
I think you are confusing this with a point I made on another of your posts? |  | | |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:49 - Feb 17 with 1061 views | Darth_Koont |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:03 - Feb 17 by chicoazul |
It's the same old same old "people didnt know what they were voting for" canard. Desperate times. |
Well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
There's scant evidence on here and in the general public that people knew what they were voting for. Either because of the insane image of the EU that has been manufactured and perpetuated over the years or through completely missing the target re: the cause of the regional and class divides in our country and the legitimate disenfranchisement that has followed.
That allied to the risks of leaving to face a modern, global and coordinated world that looks like it now may even be heading towards trade disputes ...
To a huge extent the Leave voters don't even deal with Europe or the world so of course for the overwhelming majority it's not going to make much of a difference on the surface. And certainly they won't see any benefits as long as the politicians now blame immigrants for problems that are massively down to their centralised, party political bubble. |  |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:54 - Feb 17 with 1024 views | feelingblue |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:45 - Feb 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Jesus Christ. You just accused me of insulting you by using the term budgie. At least have the balls to admit you overacted and completely misread the post.
You seem to have lost thew plot over this referendum result. |
I said 'is that supposed to be an insult, or is it supposed to devalue my opinion?'
Why did you choose to narrow it down to me and Norwich supporter? Are we the only two posters who disagree with you?
As to losing the plot, I am the one trying to keep things factual. I am not making 'comfort blanket', 'get behind your country' meaningless soundbites, I am trying to rationalise what I consider to be a disastrous decision, a view which is also shared by almost every serious economist I have seen write about the result.
Our economy had enough serious issues without us needlessly adding another big one. |  | | |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:57 - Feb 17 with 973 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:54 - Feb 17 by feelingblue |
I said 'is that supposed to be an insult, or is it supposed to devalue my opinion?'
Why did you choose to narrow it down to me and Norwich supporter? Are we the only two posters who disagree with you?
As to losing the plot, I am the one trying to keep things factual. I am not making 'comfort blanket', 'get behind your country' meaningless soundbites, I am trying to rationalise what I consider to be a disastrous decision, a view which is also shared by almost every serious economist I have seen write about the result.
Our economy had enough serious issues without us needlessly adding another big one. |
You are the two who I have debated the single market with, and whether it was debated during the referendum, the most. You read far too much into that mate. | |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:58 - Feb 17 with 963 views | No9 |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:49 - Feb 17 by Darth_Koont |
Well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
There's scant evidence on here and in the general public that people knew what they were voting for. Either because of the insane image of the EU that has been manufactured and perpetuated over the years or through completely missing the target re: the cause of the regional and class divides in our country and the legitimate disenfranchisement that has followed.
That allied to the risks of leaving to face a modern, global and coordinated world that looks like it now may even be heading towards trade disputes ...
To a huge extent the Leave voters don't even deal with Europe or the world so of course for the overwhelming majority it's not going to make much of a difference on the surface. And certainly they won't see any benefits as long as the politicians now blame immigrants for problems that are massively down to their centralised, party political bubble. |
It is obvoius that of all the problmes the UK has NONE were caused by the EU.
It is also obvious that leaving the EU is going not going to cure any of these problems.
On the contrary, if we leave as is being proposed by the RW the least well off in the country will suffer badly that is becoming more & more obvious every day but it is not popular to make these points. | | | |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:58 - Feb 17 with 981 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:49 - Feb 17 by Darth_Koont |
Well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
There's scant evidence on here and in the general public that people knew what they were voting for. Either because of the insane image of the EU that has been manufactured and perpetuated over the years or through completely missing the target re: the cause of the regional and class divides in our country and the legitimate disenfranchisement that has followed.
That allied to the risks of leaving to face a modern, global and coordinated world that looks like it now may even be heading towards trade disputes ...
To a huge extent the Leave voters don't even deal with Europe or the world so of course for the overwhelming majority it's not going to make much of a difference on the surface. And certainly they won't see any benefits as long as the politicians now blame immigrants for problems that are massively down to their centralised, party political bubble. |
Unfortunately I think if you review the treatment of Greece in relation to class war you will see which masters the E U is designed to serve.....and that's even before the manner in which they have been cut adrift/sacrificed in relation to the migrant crisis is added to the equation ! [Post edited 17 Feb 2017 12:01]
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:01 - Feb 17 with 957 views | giant_stow |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:58 - Feb 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Unfortunately I think if you review the treatment of Greece in relation to class war you will see which masters the E U is designed to serve.....and that's even before the manner in which they have been cut adrift/sacrificed in relation to the migrant crisis is added to the equation ! [Post edited 17 Feb 2017 12:01]
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hard to disagree with that. |  |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:04 - Feb 17 with 906 views | No9 |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:58 - Feb 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Unfortunately I think if you review the treatment of Greece in relation to class war you will see which masters the E U is designed to serve.....and that's even before the manner in which they have been cut adrift/sacrificed in relation to the migrant crisis is added to the equation ! [Post edited 17 Feb 2017 12:01]
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But Greece has not been treated any worse by the EU than it has by the IMF has it?
The migrant crisis was caused by the UK as much as anyone else when they bombed Libya | | | |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:05 - Feb 17 with 937 views | feelingblue |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:58 - Feb 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Unfortunately I think if you review the treatment of Greece in relation to class war you will see which masters the E U is designed to serve.....and that's even before the manner in which they have been cut adrift/sacrificed in relation to the migrant crisis is added to the equation ! [Post edited 17 Feb 2017 12:01]
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Whilst the case of Greece is unfortunate, they were foolish to fiddle their books to allow them into the Euro, just as much as the other countries were foolish to allow them into the Euro, when they knew that they had fiddled the books. (cf Italy)
They could also tried collecting their taxes with some modicum of efficiency, so that their government might have had a chance of paying for their reckless early retirement/pension regime.
I don't think that blame for Greece getting to where it got lies much with anyone except the Greeks.
The migrant thing is an unfortunate accident of geography, but given the way Europeans have been reacting to immigration, there was never going to be an easy political solution within the EU, so the Turkey deal was perhaps the best option available. | | | |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:06 - Feb 17 with 934 views | BlueinBrum |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 09:55 - Feb 17 by Guthrum |
A bit late, IMO. It was the Labour government's blasé approach to immigration from Poland which gave so much ammunition to the Leavers. "Fifteen thousand only", they said. Jack Straw has admitted a catastrophic error was made, but they had been warned enough at the time (even by individual members of the Labour party who had worked in Eastern Europe, but whose views were pooh-pooed by ministers). The UK was the only country with no transitional controls.
I'm not against immigration, nor opposed to free movement of people. But the errors and gross underestimates gave valuable fuel to those wishing to portray the UK as a country where "foreigners are flooding in without limit, taking our jobs, homes, hospital beds, etc." |
Bloody Poles. Coming over here...fixing all the things we've broken. Bloody Poles. |  | | |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:06 - Feb 17 with 933 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:01 - Feb 17 by giant_stow |
hard to disagree with that. |
Any analysis of the world at the moment is full of cognitive dissonance. Left/Right never cut it and never will....a new paradigm is required. THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES. You can not make sense see out of madness unless you are a madman. | |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:11 - Feb 17 with 917 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:04 - Feb 17 by No9 |
But Greece has not been treated any worse by the EU than it has by the IMF has it?
The migrant crisis was caused by the UK as much as anyone else when they bombed Libya |
If only it was that simple...migrant crisis was caused by colonialism and everything that followed it re resource wealth. The IMF at least wanted to write off some of the debt as they appreciate it's hell in a hand cart without it (probably F'd either way to be honest) [Post edited 17 Feb 2017 12:17]
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:15 - Feb 17 with 911 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:05 - Feb 17 by feelingblue |
Whilst the case of Greece is unfortunate, they were foolish to fiddle their books to allow them into the Euro, just as much as the other countries were foolish to allow them into the Euro, when they knew that they had fiddled the books. (cf Italy)
They could also tried collecting their taxes with some modicum of efficiency, so that their government might have had a chance of paying for their reckless early retirement/pension regime.
I don't think that blame for Greece getting to where it got lies much with anyone except the Greeks.
The migrant thing is an unfortunate accident of geography, but given the way Europeans have been reacting to immigration, there was never going to be an easy political solution within the EU, so the Turkey deal was perhaps the best option available. |
Sorry but more misinformed rubbish here than I can deal with. If you want to, Google, automaticearth Greece or Golemxiv greece for all the counter points if you want to challenge your beliefs. [Post edited 17 Feb 2017 12:18]
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:16 - Feb 17 with 908 views | Darth_Koont |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:58 - Feb 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Unfortunately I think if you review the treatment of Greece in relation to class war you will see which masters the E U is designed to serve.....and that's even before the manner in which they have been cut adrift/sacrificed in relation to the migrant crisis is added to the equation ! [Post edited 17 Feb 2017 12:01]
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A bit simplistic. Greece cocked up on their own enormously and pretty much fraudulently. That started this ball rolling.
But this is the basic misconception at the heart of the EU issue. That somehow power has been removed and now things are under the EU's or in this case the Eurozone's control.
Each EU country still has responsibility (and needs to take it) for its political, social and economic present and future. | |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:27 - Feb 17 with 865 views | chicoazul |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:49 - Feb 17 by Darth_Koont |
Well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
There's scant evidence on here and in the general public that people knew what they were voting for. Either because of the insane image of the EU that has been manufactured and perpetuated over the years or through completely missing the target re: the cause of the regional and class divides in our country and the legitimate disenfranchisement that has followed.
That allied to the risks of leaving to face a modern, global and coordinated world that looks like it now may even be heading towards trade disputes ...
To a huge extent the Leave voters don't even deal with Europe or the world so of course for the overwhelming majority it's not going to make much of a difference on the surface. And certainly they won't see any benefits as long as the politicians now blame immigrants for problems that are massively down to their centralised, party political bubble. |
"People who voted leave are stupid" |  |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:28 - Feb 17 with 859 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:16 - Feb 17 by Darth_Koont |
A bit simplistic. Greece cocked up on their own enormously and pretty much fraudulently. That started this ball rolling.
But this is the basic misconception at the heart of the EU issue. That somehow power has been removed and now things are under the EU's or in this case the Eurozone's control.
Each EU country still has responsibility (and needs to take it) for its political, social and economic present and future. |
So when Goldman Sachs cooked the books do you think they did it for the benefit of the Greek working class or some other vested interest ? The Euro was designed to suck
the benefits of debt based growth from the periphery (Ireland, Greece, Spain, Italy) to the center (France, Germany)....austerity has been the result of trying to plug the holes ever since (It's almost certainly not going to be enough though)and as usual it will be the average man/woman that pays the highest price.
The 'greek crisis' has more to do with the derivatives black hole at Deutschebank than any hard working Greek I have ever met. | |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:31 - Feb 17 with 851 views | chicoazul |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:28 - Feb 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
So when Goldman Sachs cooked the books do you think they did it for the benefit of the Greek working class or some other vested interest ? The Euro was designed to suck
the benefits of debt based growth from the periphery (Ireland, Greece, Spain, Italy) to the center (France, Germany)....austerity has been the result of trying to plug the holes ever since (It's almost certainly not going to be enough though)and as usual it will be the average man/woman that pays the highest price.
The 'greek crisis' has more to do with the derivatives black hole at Deutschebank than any hard working Greek I have ever met. |
German manufacturers and French farmers and Dutch chessemakers and Benelux bureaucrats in nice suits & Oliver People glasses. The people the EU was designed to support. | |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:36 - Feb 17 with 843 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
FWIW Corbyn's 7/10 comment was probably the nearest thing to honesty I heard in all the noise of the Referendum campaign....they would have been in a stronger place now if they had followed through! | |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:37 - Feb 17 with 834 views | feelingblue |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:15 - Feb 17 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Sorry but more misinformed rubbish here than I can deal with. If you want to, Google, automaticearth Greece or Golemxiv greece for all the counter points if you want to challenge your beliefs. [Post edited 17 Feb 2017 12:18]
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I looked at the automaticearth Greece website, and there is nothing there which disagrees with anything I wrote. Indeed some of the historic economic analysis supports my post exactly.
Suggest that you reread my post and have a think before handing out insults. | | | |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:37 - Feb 17 with 828 views | Darth_Koont |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:27 - Feb 17 by chicoazul |
"People who voted leave are stupid" |
We all have stupid, misguided, egotistical and "eager to see our own side win" tendencies.
But yes, the weight of that lies towards the Leave side. You only have to look at our media and our politics to see that's the state of the "marketplace".
FWIW I'd never accuse a random Leave voter of being stupid (or pat a random Remainer on the back for being smart). But that's the same for the people who buy Now That's What I Call Music or watch Top Gear. | |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:38 - Feb 17 with 822 views | Guthrum |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:06 - Feb 17 by BlueinBrum |
Bloody Poles. Coming over here...fixing all the things we've broken. Bloody Poles. |
Well, quite. Clearly they had jobs to come to, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered. But the government of the time's unpreparedness and false promises did give ammunition to those seeking to use immigration as a political weapon. |  |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:39 - Feb 17 with 811 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:31 - Feb 17 by chicoazul |
German manufacturers and French farmers and Dutch chessemakers and Benelux bureaucrats in nice suits & Oliver People glasses. The people the EU was designed to support. |
The very class of people now pulling the Brexit strings ....mind you don't get played Chico ! (complicated/messy ain't it) | |
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| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:40 - Feb 17 with 803 views | imsureazzure |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 11:08 - Feb 17 by No9 |
Although, maybe he is best place to understand just how devastating bad intelligence can be. |
He was best placed to corrupt bad intelligence to suit his agenda. |  | | |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:45 - Feb 17 with 782 views | Darth_Koont |
| I agree with Tony Blair.... on 12:31 - Feb 17 by chicoazul |
German manufacturers and French farmers and Dutch chessemakers and Benelux bureaucrats in nice suits & Oliver People glasses. The people the EU was designed to support. |
Yes, that type of misrepresentation that is little more than a parody. What about Estonian manufacturers, Irish farmers, Danish cheesemakers and British bureaucrats that it is also designed to support? | |
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