martin mcguinness 22:35 - Mar 23 with 3067 views | Vic | Not a terrorist, says Gerry Adams, just a freedom fighter! Sorry, but that's just not right. | |
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martin mcguinness on 22:42 - Mar 23 with 2104 views | sparks | At a time when most people who have major problems with McGuinness are at least being diplomatic and making efforts to concentrate on the better stuff he did later in life... This strikes me as an utterly offensive two fingers being waved by Adams in the faces of those people. True colours being shown. | |
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martin mcguinness on 22:43 - Mar 23 with 2099 views | blue_oyster | A terrorist, to whom Tony Blair caved into. We will lose Northern Ireland as a result. A truly shameful episode. | |
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martin mcguinness on 22:46 - Mar 23 with 2077 views | sparks |
martin mcguinness on 22:43 - Mar 23 by blue_oyster | A terrorist, to whom Tony Blair caved into. We will lose Northern Ireland as a result. A truly shameful episode. |
I dont understand that view. NI is not a piece of property. Its a nation with people who, currently and for a large chunk of recent times, have preferred to be part of the UK. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
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martin mcguinness on 22:55 - Mar 23 with 2025 views | Darth_Koont | It's always better to see both sides rather than just assume your side is correct. | |
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martin mcguinness on 22:57 - Mar 23 with 2014 views | vapour_trail | Both, I would suggest. Adams has his agenda and was his brother in arms though so hardly surprising. | |
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martin mcguinness on 23:05 - Mar 23 with 1988 views | sparks |
martin mcguinness on 22:57 - Mar 23 by vapour_trail | Both, I would suggest. Adams has his agenda and was his brother in arms though so hardly surprising. |
Im not buying that. There was prejudice and issues for catholics. But to compare him to Mandela who actually fought for a genuinely violently state oppressed people is a stretch imo. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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martin mcguinness on 23:08 - Mar 23 with 1976 views | GlasgowBlue |
martin mcguinness on 22:57 - Mar 23 by vapour_trail | Both, I would suggest. Adams has his agenda and was his brother in arms though so hardly surprising. |
As I posted the other day he made a massive contribution to the peace process when the IRA were beaten but there was a brutal side to him that gores beyond merely fighting for freedom. Read Kathryn Johnston’s book Martin McGuinness: From Guns To Government. One story recalled is when McGuinness personally supervised the murder a psychology student called Leslie Jarvis, who taught leatherwork to inmates in Magilligan prison and was therefore deemed a ‘legitimate target’. The killers then used the dead man as bait, switching his briefcase with one containing a bomb. When two policemen arrived on the scene and examined the case, they were both blown up. An IRA volunteer interviewed by the authors explained that ‘McGuinness was in the house opposite watching everything. He quite often liked to be close when things went off to watch and see… it was part of his strategy, his way of refining operations.’ Did he have Damascene conversion? Or were the IRA starved of funds after the cold war ended and infiltrated so deeply by the security services that the whole organisation was gripped by paranoia and couldn't function for fear of trusting nobody? | |
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martin mcguinness on 23:09 - Mar 23 with 1964 views | vapour_trail |
martin mcguinness on 23:05 - Mar 23 by sparks | Im not buying that. There was prejudice and issues for catholics. But to compare him to Mandela who actually fought for a genuinely violently state oppressed people is a stretch imo. |
I have purposely stayed out of the mcguinness threads this week, and on reflection am going to elect to continue to do so. Appreciate there are very strong opinions and for very good reason. | |
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martin mcguinness on 23:11 - Mar 23 with 1946 views | sparks |
martin mcguinness on 23:08 - Mar 23 by GlasgowBlue | As I posted the other day he made a massive contribution to the peace process when the IRA were beaten but there was a brutal side to him that gores beyond merely fighting for freedom. Read Kathryn Johnston’s book Martin McGuinness: From Guns To Government. One story recalled is when McGuinness personally supervised the murder a psychology student called Leslie Jarvis, who taught leatherwork to inmates in Magilligan prison and was therefore deemed a ‘legitimate target’. The killers then used the dead man as bait, switching his briefcase with one containing a bomb. When two policemen arrived on the scene and examined the case, they were both blown up. An IRA volunteer interviewed by the authors explained that ‘McGuinness was in the house opposite watching everything. He quite often liked to be close when things went off to watch and see… it was part of his strategy, his way of refining operations.’ Did he have Damascene conversion? Or were the IRA starved of funds after the cold war ended and infiltrated so deeply by the security services that the whole organisation was gripped by paranoia and couldn't function for fear of trusting nobody? |
I suspect he geniunely mellowed somewhat, and that he concluded that there was a window to move towards what he wanted via a peace process which was the most likely route to achieve his goals. The guns were always under the table though. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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martin mcguinness on 23:14 - Mar 23 with 1927 views | feelingblue |
martin mcguinness on 22:43 - Mar 23 by blue_oyster | A terrorist, to whom Tony Blair caved into. We will lose Northern Ireland as a result. A truly shameful episode. |
We were always going to 'lose' NI and we will. The only debate is timescale. 15 years, 50 years, 150 years, Ireland will be one country. It was only split as a political construct. If you want to take a longer view, had our ancestors had more vision, Ireland would now be a country within a sort of federal UK. They didn't, it isn't...... FB, ancestors from Co Cork | | | |
martin mcguinness on 23:15 - Mar 23 with 1922 views | vapour_trail |
martin mcguinness on 23:08 - Mar 23 by GlasgowBlue | As I posted the other day he made a massive contribution to the peace process when the IRA were beaten but there was a brutal side to him that gores beyond merely fighting for freedom. Read Kathryn Johnston’s book Martin McGuinness: From Guns To Government. One story recalled is when McGuinness personally supervised the murder a psychology student called Leslie Jarvis, who taught leatherwork to inmates in Magilligan prison and was therefore deemed a ‘legitimate target’. The killers then used the dead man as bait, switching his briefcase with one containing a bomb. When two policemen arrived on the scene and examined the case, they were both blown up. An IRA volunteer interviewed by the authors explained that ‘McGuinness was in the house opposite watching everything. He quite often liked to be close when things went off to watch and see… it was part of his strategy, his way of refining operations.’ Did he have Damascene conversion? Or were the IRA starved of funds after the cold war ended and infiltrated so deeply by the security services that the whole organisation was gripped by paranoia and couldn't function for fear of trusting nobody? |
OK, ignoring my previous statement, I don't believe he had any conversion at all. I think he was a pragmatist and spotted an opportunity. The Major govt did truly excellent work in facilitating back channels which have led to a long period of peace. The Blair govt followed through on this work. If MM hadn't had this opportunity to progress the republican cause he would have stayed true to his earlier tactics. The transition from thatcher to major is, for me, the key point in the positive changes that took effect in Ireland. | |
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martin mcguinness on 23:16 - Mar 23 with 1913 views | factual_blue |
martin mcguinness on 22:55 - Mar 23 by Darth_Koont | It's always better to see both sides rather than just assume your side is correct. |
That is a sensible position. I'm not clear what is meant though. It's clearly correct - or 'right' that Adams said that. It's impossible to say whether Adams' assertion is correct because both 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' are terms burdened with all sorts of emotional implications. [Post edited 24 Mar 2017 9:08]
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martin mcguinness on 23:19 - Mar 23 with 1865 views | GlasgowBlue |
martin mcguinness on 23:15 - Mar 23 by vapour_trail | OK, ignoring my previous statement, I don't believe he had any conversion at all. I think he was a pragmatist and spotted an opportunity. The Major govt did truly excellent work in facilitating back channels which have led to a long period of peace. The Blair govt followed through on this work. If MM hadn't had this opportunity to progress the republican cause he would have stayed true to his earlier tactics. The transition from thatcher to major is, for me, the key point in the positive changes that took effect in Ireland. |
The IRA couldn't continue with their tactics. The were beaten militarily and completely compromised by the security services. So in one sense you are right that he was a pragmatist. But it was still very grave to commit to peace knowing full well he'd be seen as a traitor by the dissidents. Adams couldn't have delivered a peace but McGuiness had enough clout to convince the hardliners to give up. | |
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martin mcguinness on 23:20 - Mar 23 with 1871 views | sparks |
martin mcguinness on 23:14 - Mar 23 by feelingblue | We were always going to 'lose' NI and we will. The only debate is timescale. 15 years, 50 years, 150 years, Ireland will be one country. It was only split as a political construct. If you want to take a longer view, had our ancestors had more vision, Ireland would now be a country within a sort of federal UK. They didn't, it isn't...... FB, ancestors from Co Cork |
The irony is, of course, that the shift arises from the difference between the communities and their religions. At least in part. Modernity may yet scupper that transition. I hope and think that the long term solution will be a separate nation- albeit affiliated one way or the other, or both. Otherwise, we end up with a situaiton where a large minoroty consider themselves occupied against their will... which seems kinda familiar. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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martin mcguinness on 23:38 - Mar 23 with 1813 views | feelingblue |
martin mcguinness on 23:20 - Mar 23 by sparks | The irony is, of course, that the shift arises from the difference between the communities and their religions. At least in part. Modernity may yet scupper that transition. I hope and think that the long term solution will be a separate nation- albeit affiliated one way or the other, or both. Otherwise, we end up with a situaiton where a large minoroty consider themselves occupied against their will... which seems kinda familiar. |
Agreed, Bully. My grandmother always thought that your long term solution was the obvious solution. My grandmother was a Cork Protestant who always thought of herself as Irish first, British second, although she lived in England from 1911 onwards. Tbf she was 11 when she came to England and probably didn't experience and/or understand the real problems of sectarianism. | | | |
martin mcguinness on 23:41 - Mar 23 with 1808 views | sparks |
martin mcguinness on 23:38 - Mar 23 by feelingblue | Agreed, Bully. My grandmother always thought that your long term solution was the obvious solution. My grandmother was a Cork Protestant who always thought of herself as Irish first, British second, although she lived in England from 1911 onwards. Tbf she was 11 when she came to England and probably didn't experience and/or understand the real problems of sectarianism. |
I still recall a member of this board stating that it will be a good thing when the day comes when catholics are in the majority and can take over. Seems to me that attitude puts us right back in 1980something with bombings to follow. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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martin mcguinness on 23:52 - Mar 23 with 1781 views | feelingblue |
martin mcguinness on 23:41 - Mar 23 by sparks | I still recall a member of this board stating that it will be a good thing when the day comes when catholics are in the majority and can take over. Seems to me that attitude puts us right back in 1980something with bombings to follow. |
Any country which defines itself by its religion or religious majority has a really big problem. | | | |
martin mcguinness on 23:52 - Mar 23 with 1784 views | Lord_Lucan |
martin mcguinness on 22:43 - Mar 23 by blue_oyster | A terrorist, to whom Tony Blair caved into. We will lose Northern Ireland as a result. A truly shameful episode. |
McGuiness was a terrorist mass murderer. We will lose NI anyway as eventually the Catholics will out breed everyone else. This is a fact. | |
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martin mcguinness on 23:54 - Mar 23 with 1766 views | GlasgowBlue |
martin mcguinness on 23:41 - Mar 23 by sparks | I still recall a member of this board stating that it will be a good thing when the day comes when catholics are in the majority and can take over. Seems to me that attitude puts us right back in 1980something with bombings to follow. |
You have to remember that the McGuiness and Adams generation of IRA terror was steeped in Marxism as much as Catholicism.. | |
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martin mcguinness on 23:58 - Mar 23 with 1764 views | vapour_trail |
martin mcguinness on 23:19 - Mar 23 by GlasgowBlue | The IRA couldn't continue with their tactics. The were beaten militarily and completely compromised by the security services. So in one sense you are right that he was a pragmatist. But it was still very grave to commit to peace knowing full well he'd be seen as a traitor by the dissidents. Adams couldn't have delivered a peace but McGuiness had enough clout to convince the hardliners to give up. |
Partially agree, but terrorist organisations don't really get beaten militarily, they're beaten philosophically. The Ira would have stumbled on even if they were weakened and continued to be a barrier to peace. | |
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martin mcguinness on 01:15 - Mar 24 with 1667 views | FrowsyArmLarry | Gerry Adams also says the First World War was just a "colonial adventure". I'm not sure you should put any stock into something somebody that hate filled says | | | |
martin mcguinness on 01:25 - Mar 24 with 1643 views | feelingblue |
martin mcguinness on 01:15 - Mar 24 by FrowsyArmLarry | Gerry Adams also says the First World War was just a "colonial adventure". I'm not sure you should put any stock into something somebody that hate filled says |
It may well have been "colonial adventure"if you were looking at it from a German perspective. Either way, it was probably the the worst thing that happened to the world, ever. I bow to no-one in my dislike for Gerry Adams , but nothing is binary. That is what separates us from computers. [Post edited 24 Mar 2017 1:37]
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martin mcguinness on 01:29 - Mar 24 with 1642 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
martin mcguinness on 01:25 - Mar 24 by feelingblue | It may well have been "colonial adventure"if you were looking at it from a German perspective. Either way, it was probably the the worst thing that happened to the world, ever. I bow to no-one in my dislike for Gerry Adams , but nothing is binary. That is what separates us from computers. [Post edited 24 Mar 2017 1:37]
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Agree. FYI my feelings on mcguiness is that once the war ends the slate is wiped clean | | | |
martin mcguinness on 05:39 - Mar 24 with 1528 views | caught-in-limbo |
martin mcguinness on 22:55 - Mar 23 by Darth_Koont | It's always better to see both sides rather than just assume your side is correct. |
This is very true. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Not to consider that demonstrates a very blinkered and probably propagandised view. There are always two sides to a situation. As soon as one appreciates that, one should then consider who might benefit from there being two sides tearing at each other's throats. It's the basis for divide and conquer. [Post edited 24 Mar 2017 5:41]
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martin mcguinness on 05:49 - Mar 24 with 1514 views | caught-in-limbo |
martin mcguinness on 23:52 - Mar 23 by feelingblue | Any country which defines itself by its religion or religious majority has a really big problem. |
And any country/body which provokes sectarian violence in order to divide a country for humanitarian/peace making reasons is an even bigger problem. [Post edited 24 Mar 2017 5:54]
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