| Over 150 dead 20:36 - Mar 25 with 3884 views | vapour_trail |
From our latest endeavours over Mosul, by most accounts, maybe more. In all likelihood we won't put a number on it officially as we don't like to count.
What a disgrace.
And we will wonder why survivors in this community hate us in the future. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 20:42 - Mar 25 with 2071 views | blue_oyster |
It's been much worse than Aleppo, because Isis are hiding in civilian houses and we are bombing these areas to kill them all, meaning there are much higher civilian casualties than Aleppo. Of course, the BBC et al do not report this as "war crimes", as they do when the Russians were bombing Aleppo. Our hypocritical media. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 20:42 - Mar 25 with 2074 views | Darth_Koont |
To put that into perspective, it's 150 Keith Palmers or do we apply an exchange rate?
And yes, I know it's a harsh comparison but a life is a life. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 20:44 - Mar 25 with 2062 views | gtsb1966 |
This a tough one. Any death is one too many but think of the scenarios. (1) the world does nothing and Isis kill and torture even more. (2) We realise air strikes will kill civilians so use ground forces instead and British military are killed or taken hostage and (3) we use air strikes but accept there will be a civilian casualty list. There isn't a definitive answer in my opinion. |  | | |
| Over 150 dead on 20:46 - Mar 25 with 2035 views | Illinoisblue |
| Over 150 dead on 20:44 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
This a tough one. Any death is one too many but think of the scenarios. (1) the world does nothing and Isis kill and torture even more. (2) We realise air strikes will kill civilians so use ground forces instead and British military are killed or taken hostage and (3) we use air strikes but accept there will be a civilian casualty list. There isn't a definitive answer in my opinion. |
that's the conundrum, isn't it? There is no easy answer. There is no right answer. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 20:48 - Mar 25 with 2022 views | vapour_trail |
| Over 150 dead on 20:46 - Mar 25 by Illinoisblue |
that's the conundrum, isn't it? There is no easy answer. There is no right answer. |
There's a wrong answer. And it would appear we have reassessed our risk threshold when it comes to civvies in other parts of the world. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 20:53 - Mar 25 with 2000 views | gtsb1966 |
| Over 150 dead on 20:48 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
There's a wrong answer. And it would appear we have reassessed our risk threshold when it comes to civvies in other parts of the world. |
You can only say there is a wrong answer if there is a right answer....Which there isn't. | | | |
| Over 150 dead on 20:55 - Mar 25 with 1991 views | Darth_Koont |
| Over 150 dead on 20:53 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
You can only say there is a wrong answer if there is a right answer....Which there isn't. |
Or ... if you don't have the right answer, don't try to answer the question. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 20:58 - Mar 25 with 1977 views | Illinoisblue |
| Over 150 dead on 20:48 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
There's a wrong answer. And it would appear we have reassessed our risk threshold when it comes to civvies in other parts of the world. |
one thing is clear; there should be greater coverage in the Western media when these missions go astray. Wonder if Obama would be so highly regarded if the full extent of his drone-strike bombings were to be made public. Literally thousands of them. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 20:58 - Mar 25 with 1965 views | vapour_trail |
| Over 150 dead on 20:53 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
You can only say there is a wrong answer if there is a right answer....Which there isn't. |
Not sure I follow. Not having a right answer doesn't give you a green flag to do anything. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:00 - Mar 25 with 1949 views | gtsb1966 |
| Over 150 dead on 20:55 - Mar 25 by Darth_Koont |
Or ... if you don't have the right answer, don't try to answer the question. |
Easier said than done. Imagine the outcry if we did nothing and let Isis kill, rape and torture everyone. | | | |
| Over 150 dead on 21:13 - Mar 25 with 1914 views | jeera |
| Over 150 dead on 20:58 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
Not sure I follow. Not having a right answer doesn't give you a green flag to do anything. |
It's not OK. But if I suggest that's 'typical' US approach to everything, bomb first, sorry about it later, then I suppose I'd be accused of being anti- yank. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:16 - Mar 25 with 1897 views | jeera |
| Over 150 dead on 21:00 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
Easier said than done. Imagine the outcry if we did nothing and let Isis kill, rape and torture everyone. |
'We', have a history of trying not to harm innocents.
If protecting them means going in on the ground then so be it. That's what should be done.
This has the US approach written all over it.
Bomb from afar and feck em. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:25 - Mar 25 with 1864 views | gtsb1966 |
| Over 150 dead on 21:16 - Mar 25 by jeera |
'We', have a history of trying not to harm innocents.
If protecting them means going in on the ground then so be it. That's what should be done.
This has the US approach written all over it.
Bomb from afar and feck em. |
Do we have the resources to go in and would the British public back a ground force and the sight of British bodies being repatriated again. I doubt it. I'm not saying you're wrong,far from it. | | | |
| Over 150 dead on 21:29 - Mar 25 with 1852 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
| Over 150 dead on 20:44 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
This a tough one. Any death is one too many but think of the scenarios. (1) the world does nothing and Isis kill and torture even more. (2) We realise air strikes will kill civilians so use ground forces instead and British military are killed or taken hostage and (3) we use air strikes but accept there will be a civilian casualty list. There isn't a definitive answer in my opinion. |
So what's the least bad option?
Surely it's whichever minimises innocent deaths as much as possible. From your options I would say that's number 2, unfortunately. I'm not sure that the 'no public appetite' argument would be quite as strong as it would have been a couple of years ago, either.
Although whichever 'option' they go for/continue with, it won't touch the root causes and is only likely to make things worse. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:31 - Mar 25 with 1838 views | jeera |
| Over 150 dead on 21:25 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
Do we have the resources to go in and would the British public back a ground force and the sight of British bodies being repatriated again. I doubt it. I'm not saying you're wrong,far from it. |
Probably not.
But I do feel if the US are there to help people, then don't bomb them to death, justifying it with a shrug saying that it happens.
They get cheers from back home, whilst coldly murdering normal, innocent people who naively thought help was on its way.
If that's the best 'we' can offer, then it's a sad state of affairs. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:32 - Mar 25 with 1834 views | vapour_trail |
| Over 150 dead on 21:25 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
Do we have the resources to go in and would the British public back a ground force and the sight of British bodies being repatriated again. I doubt it. I'm not saying you're wrong,far from it. |
Probably not. Do we have the right to lay waste to so many Syrian bodies. Absolutely not. It's not a surprise that we have nutters over here looking to attack from within.
It won't change anytime soon however. We'll continue to rinse the region for defence contracts and simultaneously unload all over the place. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:34 - Mar 25 with 1826 views | jeera |
| Over 150 dead on 21:29 - Mar 25 by ThisIsMyUsername |
So what's the least bad option?
Surely it's whichever minimises innocent deaths as much as possible. From your options I would say that's number 2, unfortunately. I'm not sure that the 'no public appetite' argument would be quite as strong as it would have been a couple of years ago, either.
Although whichever 'option' they go for/continue with, it won't touch the root causes and is only likely to make things worse. |
That's big of you.
You'd possibly feel different if those were your children buried in the rubble. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:35 - Mar 25 with 1821 views | gtsb1966 |
| Over 150 dead on 21:31 - Mar 25 by jeera |
Probably not.
But I do feel if the US are there to help people, then don't bomb them to death, justifying it with a shrug saying that it happens.
They get cheers from back home, whilst coldly murdering normal, innocent people who naively thought help was on its way.
If that's the best 'we' can offer, then it's a sad state of affairs. |
The scary thought is that Trump hasn't had a go yet. | | | |
| Over 150 dead on 21:36 - Mar 25 with 1813 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
| Over 150 dead on 21:34 - Mar 25 by jeera |
That's big of you.
You'd possibly feel different if those were your children buried in the rubble. |
Did you read what I said? I said 'we' should be doing everything to minimise the amount of innocent children laying in the rubble... | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:37 - Mar 25 with 1807 views | jeera |
| Over 150 dead on 21:35 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
The scary thought is that Trump hasn't had a go yet. |
Yes. There's always that. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:38 - Mar 25 with 1797 views | jeera |
| Over 150 dead on 21:36 - Mar 25 by ThisIsMyUsername |
Did you read what I said? I said 'we' should be doing everything to minimise the amount of innocent children laying in the rubble... |
I saw your resignation to Point 2. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:40 - Mar 25 with 1782 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
| Over 150 dead on 21:38 - Mar 25 by jeera |
I saw your resignation to Point 2. |
I think you've misinterpreted my post. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:46 - Mar 25 with 1746 views | J2BLUE |
| Over 150 dead on 20:42 - Mar 25 by Darth_Koont |
To put that into perspective, it's 150 Keith Palmers or do we apply an exchange rate?
And yes, I know it's a harsh comparison but a life is a life. |
The vast majority of us apply an exchange rate. You're right, a life is a life, but look at the reaction to 5 people dying compared to the current massive humanitarian crisis. We are almost all guilty of getting angry about our own people dying and not doing anywhere near enough to help the people in desperate need who have nothing.
One policeman dying raises over £500,000 for his family. A fantastic gesture for a genuine hero. Where's the fundraising page and the millions in donations for the humanitarian crisis? You haven't started one. I haven't started one. We are nearly all guilty in applying an exchange rate whether it's conscious or not. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:48 - Mar 25 with 1739 views | vapour_trail |
| Over 150 dead on 21:38 - Mar 25 by jeera |
I saw your resignation to Point 2. |
I think Jono was just looking at the three scenarios offered. He did add that we're ignoring root cause (I think, I'm paraphrasing) | |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:50 - Mar 25 with 1722 views | vapour_trail |
| Over 150 dead on 21:46 - Mar 25 by J2BLUE |
The vast majority of us apply an exchange rate. You're right, a life is a life, but look at the reaction to 5 people dying compared to the current massive humanitarian crisis. We are almost all guilty of getting angry about our own people dying and not doing anywhere near enough to help the people in desperate need who have nothing.
One policeman dying raises over £500,000 for his family. A fantastic gesture for a genuine hero. Where's the fundraising page and the millions in donations for the humanitarian crisis? You haven't started one. I haven't started one. We are nearly all guilty in applying an exchange rate whether it's conscious or not. |
We do though have plenty of organisations dedicated to nothing else, so there's no need to start a just giving page when you can send your cash to unicef, msf, scf, Muslim aid etc | |
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