| Over 150 dead 20:36 - Mar 25 with 3885 views | vapour_trail |
From our latest endeavours over Mosul, by most accounts, maybe more. In all likelihood we won't put a number on it officially as we don't like to count.
What a disgrace.
And we will wonder why survivors in this community hate us in the future. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:53 - Mar 25 with 907 views | J2BLUE |
| Over 150 dead on 21:50 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
We do though have plenty of organisations dedicated to nothing else, so there's no need to start a just giving page when you can send your cash to unicef, msf, scf, Muslim aid etc |
Fair enough. My wider point still stands IMO. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:54 - Mar 25 with 919 views | Guthrum |
Yes, it's a terrible thing.
But.
To defeat Islamic State and for Iraqis to regain governance of their own country (from a murderous bunch who themselves recently killed 122 civilians for attempting to flee), the city of Mosul must be retaken.
Negotiation is not an option, IS are not going to simply withdraw. An investment and sit-down siege would result in very many civilian deaths from starvation (the defending forces are not going to share food and medical supplies - c.f the recent Siege of Aleppo). So an assault has to be mounted.
This necessitates intensive street fighting. Always messy and with terrible consequences for civilians caught in the way. During the Battle of Berlin, not only were tens of thousands killed, but those hiding in cellars were driven mad by the intense bombardment.
In a confused, fluid and rapidly changing environment, accurate and up-to-date target identification is extremely difficult. Mistakes can be made by people under extreme stress (being shot at, car bombs heading towards them).
Less a disgrace (I doubt it was done deliberately), more the inevitable consequence of the situation. |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 21:58 - Mar 25 with 899 views | Ftnfwest |
| Over 150 dead on 21:54 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
Yes, it's a terrible thing.
But.
To defeat Islamic State and for Iraqis to regain governance of their own country (from a murderous bunch who themselves recently killed 122 civilians for attempting to flee), the city of Mosul must be retaken.
Negotiation is not an option, IS are not going to simply withdraw. An investment and sit-down siege would result in very many civilian deaths from starvation (the defending forces are not going to share food and medical supplies - c.f the recent Siege of Aleppo). So an assault has to be mounted.
This necessitates intensive street fighting. Always messy and with terrible consequences for civilians caught in the way. During the Battle of Berlin, not only were tens of thousands killed, but those hiding in cellars were driven mad by the intense bombardment.
In a confused, fluid and rapidly changing environment, accurate and up-to-date target identification is extremely difficult. Mistakes can be made by people under extreme stress (being shot at, car bombs heading towards them).
Less a disgrace (I doubt it was done deliberately), more the inevitable consequence of the situation. |
4,000 civilians in the last month in fact. Most at the hands of Isis either whilst being used as human shields or after they'd been finished with |  | | |
| Over 150 dead on 22:00 - Mar 25 with 890 views | Guthrum |
| Over 150 dead on 20:44 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
This a tough one. Any death is one too many but think of the scenarios. (1) the world does nothing and Isis kill and torture even more. (2) We realise air strikes will kill civilians so use ground forces instead and British military are killed or taken hostage and (3) we use air strikes but accept there will be a civilian casualty list. There isn't a definitive answer in my opinion. |
There's no option which avoids air strikes.
It's the major point of superiority Iraqi (or any coalition) troops have over IS. Without that, you're fighting car bombs and snipers in fortified positions with small arms and human flesh. You can't take tanks into narrow side-streets. The attack would unquestionably fail.
Artillery is as likely to cause civilian casualties, if not more so, than air power. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:01 - Mar 25 with 878 views | gtsb1966 |
| Over 150 dead on 21:50 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
We do though have plenty of organisations dedicated to nothing else, so there's no need to start a just giving page when you can send your cash to unicef, msf, scf, Muslim aid etc |
Muslim aid. I'd hazard a guess that with that name that charity hardly raises a bean with your average Britain especially now. Don't get me wrong as i know the good they do but unfortunately the name is tarnished amongst many. |  | | |
| Over 150 dead on 22:02 - Mar 25 with 885 views | vapour_trail |
| Over 150 dead on 21:54 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
Yes, it's a terrible thing.
But.
To defeat Islamic State and for Iraqis to regain governance of their own country (from a murderous bunch who themselves recently killed 122 civilians for attempting to flee), the city of Mosul must be retaken.
Negotiation is not an option, IS are not going to simply withdraw. An investment and sit-down siege would result in very many civilian deaths from starvation (the defending forces are not going to share food and medical supplies - c.f the recent Siege of Aleppo). So an assault has to be mounted.
This necessitates intensive street fighting. Always messy and with terrible consequences for civilians caught in the way. During the Battle of Berlin, not only were tens of thousands killed, but those hiding in cellars were driven mad by the intense bombardment.
In a confused, fluid and rapidly changing environment, accurate and up-to-date target identification is extremely difficult. Mistakes can be made by people under extreme stress (being shot at, car bombs heading towards them).
Less a disgrace (I doubt it was done deliberately), more the inevitable consequence of the situation. |
Less a disgrace (I doubt it was done deliberately), more the inevitable consequence of the situation
I too doubt it was deliberate guthers, but inevitable is stretching it somewhat.
From the Washington post:
The disputed airstrikes come as the White House considers lifting rules put in place by President Barack Obama’s administration to avoid civilian deaths, foreshadowing a more aggressive approach to dealing with terrorist threats overseas.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-investigates-airstrike-in-syria-that-act
You will be aware of this I am sure, and it is being widely reported the consideration has already led to a relaxation in approaching targets where civilian casualties are more likely.
Certainly not inevitable. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:05 - Mar 25 with 863 views | vapour_trail |
| Over 150 dead on 22:01 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
Muslim aid. I'd hazard a guess that with that name that charity hardly raises a bean with your average Britain especially now. Don't get me wrong as i know the good they do but unfortunately the name is tarnished amongst many. |
They're pretty significant. About 35m a year. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:07 - Mar 25 with 848 views | Guthrum |
| Over 150 dead on 20:48 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
There's a wrong answer. And it would appear we have reassessed our risk threshold when it comes to civvies in other parts of the world. |
Or a simple mistake was made. From local reports, the wrong building was targeted, one which had a cellar where civilians were sheltering. It's questionable whether that latter fact could have been known by anybody from the troops on the ground under fire calling in the airstrikes right up to the person who authorised the bombs to be dropped.
The whole city is full of civilians. There is no way to evacuate them and, in any case, IS are not letting them flee. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:10 - Mar 25 with 838 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over 150 dead on 21:54 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
Yes, it's a terrible thing.
But.
To defeat Islamic State and for Iraqis to regain governance of their own country (from a murderous bunch who themselves recently killed 122 civilians for attempting to flee), the city of Mosul must be retaken.
Negotiation is not an option, IS are not going to simply withdraw. An investment and sit-down siege would result in very many civilian deaths from starvation (the defending forces are not going to share food and medical supplies - c.f the recent Siege of Aleppo). So an assault has to be mounted.
This necessitates intensive street fighting. Always messy and with terrible consequences for civilians caught in the way. During the Battle of Berlin, not only were tens of thousands killed, but those hiding in cellars were driven mad by the intense bombardment.
In a confused, fluid and rapidly changing environment, accurate and up-to-date target identification is extremely difficult. Mistakes can be made by people under extreme stress (being shot at, car bombs heading towards them).
Less a disgrace (I doubt it was done deliberately), more the inevitable consequence of the situation. |
Fair points but apply the same scenario with Russian bombs killing innocents and the media representation is somewhat different ! Why so and who gets to call the shots on these 'editorial' decisions ? |  |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:10 - Mar 25 with 830 views | gtsb1966 |
| Over 150 dead on 22:05 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
They're pretty significant. About 35m a year. |
And i dare say they do a fantastic job. How much more could they do If the word Muslim wasn't associated with virtually every terrorist attack in Europe. Sad but true. | | | |
| Over 150 dead on 22:11 - Mar 25 with 821 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over 150 dead on 21:58 - Mar 25 by Ftnfwest |
4,000 civilians in the last month in fact. Most at the hands of Isis either whilst being used as human shields or after they'd been finished with |
Who told you that then? | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:13 - Mar 25 with 817 views | vapour_trail |
| Over 150 dead on 22:10 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
And i dare say they do a fantastic job. How much more could they do If the word Muslim wasn't associated with virtually every terrorist attack in Europe. Sad but true. |
Don't know too much about their projects. I don't tend to donate to religious charities generally. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:16 - Mar 25 with 804 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over 150 dead on 22:07 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
Or a simple mistake was made. From local reports, the wrong building was targeted, one which had a cellar where civilians were sheltering. It's questionable whether that latter fact could have been known by anybody from the troops on the ground under fire calling in the airstrikes right up to the person who authorised the bombs to be dropped.
The whole city is full of civilians. There is no way to evacuate them and, in any case, IS are not letting them flee. |
These are the exact qualifications that apply when it's the goodies making the 'mistakes'........exemplified recently by that marine that had his murder reduced to manslaughter ! The Taliban don't suffer from mental breakdowns only our boys it would seem . | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:17 - Mar 25 with 800 views | Guthrum |
| Over 150 dead on 22:02 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
Less a disgrace (I doubt it was done deliberately), more the inevitable consequence of the situation
I too doubt it was deliberate guthers, but inevitable is stretching it somewhat.
From the Washington post:
The disputed airstrikes come as the White House considers lifting rules put in place by President Barack Obama’s administration to avoid civilian deaths, foreshadowing a more aggressive approach to dealing with terrorist threats overseas.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-investigates-airstrike-in-syria-that-act
You will be aware of this I am sure, and it is being widely reported the consideration has already led to a relaxation in approaching targets where civilian casualties are more likely.
Certainly not inevitable. |
As I just posted elsewhere in the thread, the city is full of civilians who cannot escape and are not being allowed to flee by IS (on pain of death). There is no way to ensure civilian safety adequately while still retaking Mosul.
A house full of IS men and snipers is identical to the next house full of civilians. Very difficult in the confusion of battle (dust, chaos, bullets flying around, limited field of view in a built up area) to be sure which is which. Your men are being shot at and you need to flatten the insurgents before anyone else dies.
This supposed relaxation in the rules is typical Trumpy guff, in which he tries to sound more bellicose than the rest. I doubt the military will be too keen on carrying it out to the letter. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:18 - Mar 25 with 790 views | bournemouthblue |
| Over 150 dead on 20:42 - Mar 25 by blue_oyster |
It's been much worse than Aleppo, because Isis are hiding in civilian houses and we are bombing these areas to kill them all, meaning there are much higher civilian casualties than Aleppo. Of course, the BBC et al do not report this as "war crimes", as they do when the Russians were bombing Aleppo. Our hypocritical media. |
I saw a report some time back suggesting when we say Allepo, Putin will say Mosul
He is always one step ahead isn't he? [Post edited 25 Mar 2017 22:32]
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| Over 150 dead on 22:24 - Mar 25 with 770 views | gtsb1966 |
| Over 150 dead on 22:16 - Mar 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
These are the exact qualifications that apply when it's the goodies making the 'mistakes'........exemplified recently by that marine that had his murder reduced to manslaughter ! The Taliban don't suffer from mental breakdowns only our boys it would seem . |
Whoooaaaa....Ever seen the clip where a Taliban "known" soldier is in clear view of the British, on his mobile, but cannot be taken out because he didn't have a weapon in his hand even though it was obvious he wasn't asking his Mrs what's for tea. Ten minutes later he was out of sight and could kill British soldiers again. | | | |
| Over 150 dead on 22:27 - Mar 25 with 752 views | Guthrum |
| Over 150 dead on 22:16 - Mar 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
These are the exact qualifications that apply when it's the goodies making the 'mistakes'........exemplified recently by that marine that had his murder reduced to manslaughter ! The Taliban don't suffer from mental breakdowns only our boys it would seem . |
It's a question of intent.
We at least make every reasonable effort to reduce civilian casualties - indeed this story and the reaction to it is syptomatic of that.
Islamic State repeatedly go out of their way to ensure as many deaths as possible, including car bombs in market places and public mass killings.
With Syria (and, to an extent, Russia) I don't think it's that they're careless of civilian lives, so much as they lack the specific precision munition technologies in which we've rather specialised in the West. Bit of a blunt instrument (e.g. unguided bombs from Tu-22M strategic bombers). In Syria's case, their military infrastructure is completely trashed, so they're dropping whatever they can (converted gas canisters) from whatever will fly (anything from helicopters to MiG-21s). | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:30 - Mar 25 with 748 views | Guthrum |
| Over 150 dead on 22:10 - Mar 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Fair points but apply the same scenario with Russian bombs killing innocents and the media representation is somewhat different ! Why so and who gets to call the shots on these 'editorial' decisions ? |
Media in favouring "our" side over the "opposition" shocker. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:31 - Mar 25 with 737 views | vapour_trail |
| Over 150 dead on 22:27 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
It's a question of intent.
We at least make every reasonable effort to reduce civilian casualties - indeed this story and the reaction to it is syptomatic of that.
Islamic State repeatedly go out of their way to ensure as many deaths as possible, including car bombs in market places and public mass killings.
With Syria (and, to an extent, Russia) I don't think it's that they're careless of civilian lives, so much as they lack the specific precision munition technologies in which we've rather specialised in the West. Bit of a blunt instrument (e.g. unguided bombs from Tu-22M strategic bombers). In Syria's case, their military infrastructure is completely trashed, so they're dropping whatever they can (converted gas canisters) from whatever will fly (anything from helicopters to MiG-21s). |
We at least make every reasonable effort to reduce civilian casualties - indeed this story and the reaction to it is syptomatic of that.
That's a very great investment of faith there. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:33 - Mar 25 with 719 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over 150 dead on 22:24 - Mar 25 by gtsb1966 |
Whoooaaaa....Ever seen the clip where a Taliban "known" soldier is in clear view of the British, on his mobile, but cannot be taken out because he didn't have a weapon in his hand even though it was obvious he wasn't asking his Mrs what's for tea. Ten minutes later he was out of sight and could kill British soldiers again. |
Whether it's the police killing people in custody or our soldiers getting a bit carried away the state will always look after their own...that's just how it works...so you don't think that some young Afghan lad that's seen his family killed as collateral damage might have the defence of mental imbalance? Let's just be honest with ourselves ! | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:36 - Mar 25 with 711 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over 150 dead on 22:30 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
Media in favouring "our" side over the "opposition" shocker. |
So when was it and who decided it was time to start the cold war again ? It's like bl00dy cowboys and Indians and so many of us just swallow it . | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:39 - Mar 25 with 707 views | Guthrum |
| Over 150 dead on 22:31 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
We at least make every reasonable effort to reduce civilian casualties - indeed this story and the reaction to it is syptomatic of that.
That's a very great investment of faith there. |
We do. Otherwise why are we bothering with individual airstrikes on specific targets (sometimes with quite small munitions, such as for a particular vehicle), rather than plastering the entire area before an assault goes in? There are no fleets of B-52s raining down hundreds of 1000lb bombs. | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:40 - Mar 25 with 702 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over 150 dead on 22:31 - Mar 25 by vapour_trail |
We at least make every reasonable effort to reduce civilian casualties - indeed this story and the reaction to it is syptomatic of that.
That's a very great investment of faith there. |
Except for that American helicopter pilot in the infamous Wikileak! | |
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| Over 150 dead on 22:41 - Mar 25 with 701 views | gtsb1966 |
| Over 150 dead on 22:33 - Mar 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Whether it's the police killing people in custody or our soldiers getting a bit carried away the state will always look after their own...that's just how it works...so you don't think that some young Afghan lad that's seen his family killed as collateral damage might have the defence of mental imbalance? Let's just be honest with ourselves ! |
I'll back the British soldier over a Taliban fighter who wants to kill British soldiers every time. The post we are referring to mentioned Taliban fighters being 'murdered' not young Afghan children. | | | |
| Over 150 dead on 22:43 - Mar 25 with 689 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Over 150 dead on 22:39 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
We do. Otherwise why are we bothering with individual airstrikes on specific targets (sometimes with quite small munitions, such as for a particular vehicle), rather than plastering the entire area before an assault goes in? There are no fleets of B-52s raining down hundreds of 1000lb bombs. |
They probably cost more to replace....so a win win ! | |
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