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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services 19:14 - Mar 26 with 6183 viewsThe_Romford_Blue

That's terrible.

Should be made so intelligence services are the exception all sites like whatsapp.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39396578

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 23:46 - Mar 26 with 2044 viewscaught-in-limbo

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 23:40 - Mar 26 by StNeotsBlue

I tend to agree with your wider point but your last sentence is mental, he didn't have a go on Clash of Clans or Candy Crush to calm his nerves, in this case his use of WhatsApp and who with is of importance.


It's nonsense.
https://9to5mac.com/2017/01/13/whatsapp-encryption-backdoor-vulnerability/
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/13/whatsapp-backdoor-allows-snoo

What is even more ridiculous is that the "The current threat level for international terrorism in the UK is SEVERE."
source: https://www.mi5.gov.uk/threat-levels

Yet the borough of Westminster decided to turn off all its CCTV cameras in September. And then tell everybody about it:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36465844

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:07 - Mar 27 with 2007 viewsfactual_blue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 19:31 - Mar 26 by ElderGrizzly

Like the US security services couldn't get into Apple devices.... ;)


Of course they couldn't.


#smokeandmirrors

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:18 - Mar 27 with 1994 viewsfactual_blue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 22:34 - Mar 26 by The_Romford_Blue

I've had a think about it too.

I wrote an essay on it encryption and privacy in school once which involved 2 weeks of research

I believe anyone choosing privacy over safety (not just from terrorists) is absolutely crazy. This attacker could have spent weeks on whatsapp (he was on there 2 minutes before going over the bridge) going through every last stage with someone from ISIS on how to do it.


What was there to ' go through' with him? 'Drive the car along a pavement, then get out and stab a policeman'?

If he needed to have that explained to him, ISIS must be really short of people with even a single iota of intelligence.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:22 - Mar 27 with 1984 viewsThe_Romford_Blue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:18 - Mar 27 by factual_blue

What was there to ' go through' with him? 'Drive the car along a pavement, then get out and stab a policeman'?

If he needed to have that explained to him, ISIS must be really short of people with even a single iota of intelligence.


Facters. How am I supposed to know what a terrorists mindset is. Or how Isis want there terrorists to act?

The fact that the nutter COULD have been getting some last words from the leader of Isis because of end to end encryption is a terrible thing in my opinion.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:23 - Mar 27 with 1984 viewsThe_Romford_Blue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 20:36 - Mar 26 by textbackup

Romford, whatever anyone tells you, trust me, they can see what people are doing. If they suspect it, there are ways.


Hmmm, I'm skeptical.

End to end encryption would be hard to get round

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:25 - Mar 27 with 1984 viewsStNeotsBlue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:18 - Mar 27 by factual_blue

What was there to ' go through' with him? 'Drive the car along a pavement, then get out and stab a policeman'?

If he needed to have that explained to him, ISIS must be really short of people with even a single iota of intelligence.


I normally avoid these sort of threads like the plague but as I've already dipped my toe in, I think you're missing the point. Who he was in contact with must be of interest?
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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:32 - Mar 27 with 1961 viewsThe_Romford_Blue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:25 - Mar 27 by StNeotsBlue

I normally avoid these sort of threads like the plague but as I've already dipped my toe in, I think you're missing the point. Who he was in contact with must be of interest?


That's my point


Could have been talking to anyone

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:32 - Mar 27 with 1960 viewsLankHenners

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:25 - Mar 27 by StNeotsBlue

I normally avoid these sort of threads like the plague but as I've already dipped my toe in, I think you're missing the point. Who he was in contact with must be of interest?


Think they'd be able to see who he was in contact with, or a number/destination at least (as well as time), just the content of the message that is hidden.
[Post edited 27 Mar 2017 0:36]

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.
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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:49 - Mar 27 with 1931 viewsThe_Romford_Blue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:32 - Mar 27 by LankHenners

Think they'd be able to see who he was in contact with, or a number/destination at least (as well as time), just the content of the message that is hidden.
[Post edited 27 Mar 2017 0:36]


I see

Unless he deleted the chat as he sent it. It would be unknown that way..

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 06:39 - Mar 27 with 1879 viewstcblue

I wonder if jacking in your civil liberty such as a right to some privacy is something that terrorists want, OP?

And in any case, deaths from terrorism in western Europe in the past ten years have been much lower than in the previous thirty. I wonder what's changed? Perhaps you could argue surveillance has improved, and that might be true.

But something has changed in terms of why it seems as though there's MORE terrorism nowadays. Rolling news, or the way it's reported?
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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 07:02 - Mar 27 with 1872 viewsElderGrizzly

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 00:23 - Mar 27 by The_Romford_Blue

Hmmm, I'm skeptical.

End to end encryption would be hard to get round


It would be naive to think the combined forces of the likes of GCHQ and the NSA could not get around it. They did with Apple and they already will have done with this.

On your other post, these 'lone wolf' attacks don't get messages from the ISIS leadership minutes before an attack. Just not how it works in their 'network'

It's an interesting discussion though, but the assumption should always be, if you say or type it through technology it can be monitored. And for a growing number in the UK, that is exactly what happens.
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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 07:18 - Mar 27 with 1856 viewsDanTheMan

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 23:46 - Mar 26 by caught-in-limbo

It's nonsense.
https://9to5mac.com/2017/01/13/whatsapp-encryption-backdoor-vulnerability/
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/13/whatsapp-backdoor-allows-snoo

What is even more ridiculous is that the "The current threat level for international terrorism in the UK is SEVERE."
source: https://www.mi5.gov.uk/threat-levels

Yet the borough of Westminster decided to turn off all its CCTV cameras in September. And then tell everybody about it:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36465844


Just to point out, the "backdoor" wasn't much of a backdoor at all, that was sensationalist reporting

https://whispersystems.org/blog/there-is-no-whatsapp-backdoor/

On the main topic, I'll keep my privacy please. Try and ban Whatsapp, they just say no and no longer make it available in the UK. Because the protocol they use is open source, there are dozens of apps one could use to get the same level of security, which has not yet been broken. I know people like to assume MI5 are all powerful, but they just don't have the processing power to decrypt hundreds of messages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol

They can't beat it. Which is why they want a backdoor in, and it won't happen.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 09:22 - Mar 27 with 1815 viewsGlasgowBlue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 07:18 - Mar 27 by DanTheMan

Just to point out, the "backdoor" wasn't much of a backdoor at all, that was sensationalist reporting

https://whispersystems.org/blog/there-is-no-whatsapp-backdoor/

On the main topic, I'll keep my privacy please. Try and ban Whatsapp, they just say no and no longer make it available in the UK. Because the protocol they use is open source, there are dozens of apps one could use to get the same level of security, which has not yet been broken. I know people like to assume MI5 are all powerful, but they just don't have the processing power to decrypt hundreds of messages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol

They can't beat it. Which is why they want a backdoor in, and it won't happen.


One for you Dan



[Post edited 27 Mar 2017 9:24]

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 09:33 - Mar 27 with 1806 viewschicoazul

I have long been convinced that governments go on and on about how they cant hack WhatsApp, Tor, iMessage, Confide etc precisely because they can.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 09:41 - Mar 27 with 1799 viewscaught-in-limbo

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 09:33 - Mar 27 by chicoazul

I have long been convinced that governments go on and on about how they cant hack WhatsApp, Tor, iMessage, Confide etc precisely because they can.


Exactly. It's just like the charade with the FBI in the States, pleading with Apple to give them access to their phones, and being able to do it all along. More lies and less freedom from our governments.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 09:41 - Mar 27 with 1790 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Rommy, there's more chance that you are going to be killed by a falling vending machine today than by a crazed whats-apping jihadist/right wing/fundamentalist terrorist. Would you give up your freedom to use vending machines , cross the road etc as quickly as you would allow the state to know everything about what you do and who you do it with ?

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 10:00 - Mar 27 with 1767 viewsGlasgowBlue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 22:42 - Mar 26 by Herbivore

That's wild speculation and does not tally with what the police have found in their investigation to date. You seem to be placing a lot of significance on him going on WhatsApp 2 minutes before the attack took place and I'm not sure why, millions of people in the UK go on WhatsApp regularly. I'd imagine being sat in a car about to do what he was about to do, pissing about on his phone was a welcome distraction.


I think you are underestimating the significance of him using whatsapp just two minutes before carrying out his attack. The messages could reveal whether or not he was acting under instruction from ISIS or another terror group. Who his cobtsct was, if he had one.

That's not me supporting the government on this issue. As others have said, if MI5 can hack into this stuff then so could foreign agents or criminals.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 10:59 - Mar 27 with 1739 viewsBlueLikeJazz

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 19:28 - Mar 26 by The_Romford_Blue

I'm prepared to give up privacy for the sake of mine and my family's safety. Of course I am.

Anyone who's more concerned about a security geezer seeing what you text your missus rather than there being more terrorist attacks is either a lier or an idiot.

In my opinion.


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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 11:55 - Mar 27 with 1710 viewsDanTheMan

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 09:41 - Mar 27 by caught-in-limbo

Exactly. It's just like the charade with the FBI in the States, pleading with Apple to give them access to their phones, and being able to do it all along. More lies and less freedom from our governments.


If you could hack end to end encryption on mass-scale, most of the banking industry would collapse.

The iPhone was a very specific case. They didn't hack with a MITM attack, they had access to the phone and the specific feature they were trying to crack had very little to do with encryption. They couldn't get pass the access code, so they paid a company to do it for them. This was on an older version of a of iOS, and only on certain type of iPhone. It had limited effectiveness and shelf life.

With Whatsapp, being able to intercept communications, and decrypt them quick enough presents a vastly different set of problems, mainly that you would need to how found a bug in the implementation of the protocol e.g. Heart bleed in openssl ( http://heartbleed.com/), or you'd need absolutely massive amounts of computing power just for one conversation. You'd then need to replicate this over and over again. At which point you'd be better off targetting specific phones with something like a keylogger.

I've seen Tor mentioned as something which can be monitored and this is somewhat correct. Tor works only if you can trust the exit node that you are using but anyone can in fact sets these up so it is known that intelligence agencies do operate exit nodes to try and catch things. It's somewhat effective but very hit and miss.

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/silk-road-1/

I'd suggest reading this as it gives a good example of the sort of problems agencies run in to when people are using Tor.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 12:16 - Mar 27 with 1685 viewsBlue_Order

If none of us is entitled to privacy in electronic communications in order to ensure that terrorists don't have it either, that creates an issue in other areas of communication. Since terrorists can obviously just have private conversations in their own homes too, it is also, according to this logic, unacceptable that British homes aren't wiretapped as a matter of course.
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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 13:18 - Mar 27 with 1641 viewsBOjK

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 12:16 - Mar 27 by Blue_Order

If none of us is entitled to privacy in electronic communications in order to ensure that terrorists don't have it either, that creates an issue in other areas of communication. Since terrorists can obviously just have private conversations in their own homes too, it is also, according to this logic, unacceptable that British homes aren't wiretapped as a matter of course.


We have privacy in electronic communications to ensure that hackers/blaggers etc don't have access to it.

There is a very good chance that with access to people's iMessages/whatsapp messages the following information would be available:

* Your name
* Your address
* Your date-of-birth
* Your bank account details
* Your phone numbers
Quite possibly there would be a number of passwords to your bank accounts (or worse - your email). Mrs BOjK often asks me to remind her of various login details. I'm probably not unique in this, but am unusual in that I won't transmit them even over end-to-end encrypted messaging.

With that it is pretty much game over for your online security and quite possibly the contents of your bank account.

This isn't about academic arguments about privacy and government snooping. This is about protecting each and every one of us from hackers all over the planet.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 13:19 - Mar 27 with 1637 viewsBOjK

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 12:16 - Mar 27 by Blue_Order

If none of us is entitled to privacy in electronic communications in order to ensure that terrorists don't have it either, that creates an issue in other areas of communication. Since terrorists can obviously just have private conversations in their own homes too, it is also, according to this logic, unacceptable that British homes aren't wiretapped as a matter of course.


This analogy fails because adding a tap on one phone line doesn't make another line less secure.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 13:23 - Mar 27 with 1627 viewsSteve_M

I did see the suggestion made yesterday that politicians who are otherwise digitally illiterate can understand the concept of plotting on WhatsApp because they have some experience of plotting on WhatsApp.

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 15:55 - Mar 27 with 1556 viewsHerbivore

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 23:40 - Mar 26 by StNeotsBlue

I tend to agree with your wider point but your last sentence is mental, he didn't have a go on Clash of Clans or Candy Crush to calm his nerves, in this case his use of WhatsApp and who with is of importance.


Why?

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I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 16:48 - Mar 27 with 1525 viewsThe_Romford_Blue

I didn't realise end-to-end encryption included intelligence services on 10:59 - Mar 27 by BlueLikeJazz

What time is the builder coming round to fit CCTV in every room in your house?


Apples and chocolate oranges

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