| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? 10:46 - Mar 28 with 6616 views | hype313 |
If so, please elaborate as why he isn't. |  |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:13 - Mar 29 with 1916 views | trncbluearmy |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:05 - Mar 29 by Lord_Lucan |
What has this got to do with gaining over £8m of income tax by losing £8m a year?
It doesn't make sense. |
Exactly the whole thing does not make sense.
Evans has a interesting business background.
He has no love of football.
Do you think for one moment he has not instructed his army of accountants to make the most of a loss making company within his group?
The money he has put in has been repaid by the transfer fees that we are told have paid in salary, yeah right Murphy`s salary replaced by Moore`s and plenty of other examples,the whole thing just not make sense.
There are just so many questions which no one on here can answer but just look at what has happened to our(his) club since he took over. |  | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:15 - Mar 29 with 1909 views | sparks |
A subject your obsessed mind appears to lack the capacity to properly understand. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:18 - Mar 29 with 1902 views | sparks |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:13 - Mar 29 by trncbluearmy |
Exactly the whole thing does not make sense.
Evans has a interesting business background.
He has no love of football.
Do you think for one moment he has not instructed his army of accountants to make the most of a loss making company within his group?
The money he has put in has been repaid by the transfer fees that we are told have paid in salary, yeah right Murphy`s salary replaced by Moore`s and plenty of other examples,the whole thing just not make sense.
There are just so many questions which no one on here can answer but just look at what has happened to our(his) club since he took over. |
Are you suggesting tg at the accounts are fraudulent? They contradict what you say... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:27 - Mar 29 with 1885 views | trncbluearmy |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:18 - Mar 29 by sparks |
Are you suggesting tg at the accounts are fraudulent? They contradict what you say... |
Of course I`m not, but can you interpret and understand the full implications of a large companies accounts I`m not just talking about ITFC`s of which there are at least two version of.
He has a loss making company in his group, his accountants would be negligent not to use ITFC to defer/reduce tax quite legally, to think otherwise is the height of naivety. | | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:28 - Mar 29 with 1878 views | itfcjoe |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:27 - Mar 29 by trncbluearmy |
Of course I`m not, but can you interpret and understand the full implications of a large companies accounts I`m not just talking about ITFC`s of which there are at least two version of.
He has a loss making company in his group, his accountants would be negligent not to use ITFC to defer/reduce tax quite legally, to think otherwise is the height of naivety. |
Of course he uses ITFC to defer/reduce tax - but ITFC does not save him money, it costs him money |  |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:31 - Mar 29 with 1869 views | taximan |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:28 - Mar 29 by itfcjoe |
Of course he uses ITFC to defer/reduce tax - but ITFC does not save him money, it costs him money |
but not the 8mill per year that some suggest ? |  | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:43 - Mar 29 with 1859 views | itfcjoe |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:31 - Mar 29 by taximan |
but not the 8mill per year that some suggest ? |
It costs him about £6m a year - which saves him corporation tax (presumably) of approx 20%
So costs him around £5m a year - but he claws some of that back in transfer fees.
The last 3 years the debt has barely risen so there hasn't been much investment at all | |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 09:16 - Mar 29 with 1824 views | trncbluearmy |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 08:43 - Mar 29 by itfcjoe |
It costs him about £6m a year - which saves him corporation tax (presumably) of approx 20%
So costs him around £5m a year - but he claws some of that back in transfer fees.
The last 3 years the debt has barely risen so there hasn't been much investment at all |
I`m not saying he is making money out of ITFC but as you say the debt has hardly risen so it`s getting close.
Sheepy sold him the dream of a quick buck.
ME piled money in and for numerous reasons,mainly his fault,it failed.
He has now become a bad owner,not putting enough in to succeed but happy he can take the transfer fees to offset his input and let his accountants do the rest.
His mouth pieces manage to placate the masses, but ITFC as a competitive football club is dead in his hands [Post edited 29 Mar 2017 9:18]
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 09:24 - Mar 29 with 1816 views | dirtyboy |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 09:16 - Mar 29 by trncbluearmy |
I`m not saying he is making money out of ITFC but as you say the debt has hardly risen so it`s getting close.
Sheepy sold him the dream of a quick buck.
ME piled money in and for numerous reasons,mainly his fault,it failed.
He has now become a bad owner,not putting enough in to succeed but happy he can take the transfer fees to offset his input and let his accountants do the rest.
His mouth pieces manage to placate the masses, but ITFC as a competitive football club is dead in his hands [Post edited 29 Mar 2017 9:18]
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As I see it, there's one of two scenarios playing out here.
a) doesn't 'want' to waste any more money gambling llike he did with Keane and PJ
b) can't afford to |  | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:27 - Mar 29 with 1784 views | PrideOfTheEast |
Put simply tax would not have been his motivation. It's a mere consequence of operating a loss running business that you are entitled to offset current year losses arising against current year profits arising in another part of your group. The "benefit" is arguably 20% (the CT rate, which is reducing), so to the extent (for example) ITFC makes a £6m loss in a particular accounting period, that £6m could be offset against £6m of profits which would otherwise potentially be taxed at 20%. He could obviously have sufficient tax losses elsewhere in the group such that he places no value whatsover on those generated by ITFC. | | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:39 - Mar 29 with 1768 views | DoobDude |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 10:48 - Mar 28 by BlueBadger |
Given that he's reportedly putting £8m a year in to ensure the place keeps running, I'm can't really see how he's going to save money in the long run through some kind of tax loophole. |
Every time I see a figure between 6 and 10 million I will respond with the folllowing ...
Over the past 2 years he has put less than half a million pounds into ITFC. |  |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:42 - Mar 29 with 1766 views | DoobDude |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 10:55 - Mar 28 by Guthrum |
Because it doesn't work.
You can offset profit against losses (not against tax liability). But you're only paying tax on a proportion of those profits. A loss of £1 will offset a profit of £1 and save you 20p in tax. So you've paid out an extra £1 (covering the losses) to save yourself 20p - leaving yourself 80p worse off.
That's helpful if you have unavoidably lossmaking parts of your business. But deliberately making a loss to reduce tax doesn't add up. |
Doesn't even begin to take into account his overly complicated company structure.
And even Evans doesn't "deliberately" make a loss, he is just comfortable with employing good accountants to maximise the loss via dividends, preference shares, interest, amortisation and depreciation. | |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:43 - Mar 29 with 1759 views | Superfrans |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 18:39 - Mar 28 by braveblue |
£8m is nonsense. |
Oooh, time for my table again...
Across the past five years, its an aggregate loss of £34.3m - or £6.9m per year. But if you look across the whole of the past 9 years, its £7.8m pa average.
15/16 - £6.6m loss.
14/15 - £5.3m profit.
13/14 - £7.2m loss.
12/13 - £9.8m loss.
11/12 - £16.0m loss.
10/11 - £3.2m loss.
9/10 - £14.2m loss.
8/9 - £12.7m loss.
7/8 - £5.8m loss. |  |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:46 - Mar 29 with 1751 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:42 - Mar 29 by DoobDude |
Doesn't even begin to take into account his overly complicated company structure.
And even Evans doesn't "deliberately" make a loss, he is just comfortable with employing good accountants to maximise the loss via dividends, preference shares, interest, amortisation and depreciation. |
It's hardly overly complicated.
"Maximising the tax loss through amortisation, depreciation, dividends" - first two are accounting concepts, neither of which are tax deductible! Dividends are also not tax deductible but will be tax exempt in the recipient I expect - that has nothing to do with ITFC. | | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:47 - Mar 29 with 1749 views | DoobDude |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:43 - Mar 29 by Superfrans |
Oooh, time for my table again...
Across the past five years, its an aggregate loss of £34.3m - or £6.9m per year. But if you look across the whole of the past 9 years, its £7.8m pa average.
15/16 - £6.6m loss.
14/15 - £5.3m profit.
13/14 - £7.2m loss.
12/13 - £9.8m loss.
11/12 - £16.0m loss.
10/11 - £3.2m loss.
9/10 - £14.2m loss.
8/9 - £12.7m loss.
7/8 - £5.8m loss. |
Yes but your table is nonsense as the deficit is nothing to to with the financial profit and loss.
Just because ITFC make a loss of £8m it doesn't mean Evans transferred £8m into ITFC. Many of the losses are down to interest charged, dividends and depreciation. | |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:52 - Mar 29 with 1742 views | DoobDude |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:46 - Mar 29 by PrideOfTheEast |
It's hardly overly complicated.
"Maximising the tax loss through amortisation, depreciation, dividends" - first two are accounting concepts, neither of which are tax deductible! Dividends are also not tax deductible but will be tax exempt in the recipient I expect - that has nothing to do with ITFC. |
Of course his company structure is complicated.
Ask yourself why Evans needs over 40 companies registered in his name with Company House. And there are undoubtedly loads more that don't have his name in them. | |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:54 - Mar 29 with 1732 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:52 - Mar 29 by DoobDude |
Of course his company structure is complicated.
Ask yourself why Evans needs over 40 companies registered in his name with Company House. And there are undoubtedly loads more that don't have his name in them. |
Vast majority are inactive. It's no more complicated than similar sized groups and far less so than the sorts of companies who aggressively tax plan (or used to). | | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:54 - Mar 29 with 1729 views | taximan |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:52 - Mar 29 by DoobDude |
Of course his company structure is complicated.
Ask yourself why Evans needs over 40 companies registered in his name with Company House. And there are undoubtedly loads more that don't have his name in them. |
that does appear to be complicated !!!!!!!!!! | | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 14:01 - Mar 29 with 1722 views | DoobDude |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:54 - Mar 29 by PrideOfTheEast |
Vast majority are inactive. It's no more complicated than similar sized groups and far less so than the sorts of companies who aggressively tax plan (or used to). |
Oh and the actual company that owns us moved to the Isle of Man where there is no requirement for published accounts.
I'm sure he just loves islands and that is why he bases himself on so many. The fact that they also have low tax rates is just a happy coincidence. | |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 14:11 - Mar 29 with 1707 views | taximan |
bloody hell | | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 17:05 - Mar 29 with 1676 views | Superfrans |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:42 - Mar 29 by DoobDude |
Doesn't even begin to take into account his overly complicated company structure.
And even Evans doesn't "deliberately" make a loss, he is just comfortable with employing good accountants to maximise the loss via dividends, preference shares, interest, amortisation and depreciation. |
The bottom line though is that Evans isn't magically making a profit through tax when he has lost £34m over the past five years and £36m in the four years before that.
None of our current circumstances are "comfortable" for him and I find it odd that people find it so difficult to work out what has happened. It seems quite obvious.
When he bought us, we were a clubs with decent prospects in the Championship and seemed one decent managerial appointment and 2,3,4 big signings away from being a promotion club. He took on our debt, restructured it by paying a fraction back to those owed and essentially got a £60-80m valued club for a fraction of that price.
But he didn't figure on us going another 9 years without promotion and continue to haemorrhage cash, season after season - at the end of which we would be slipping backwards.
Now, the big question he faces ongoing, is whether / when he jumps. Right now, he probably wishes he had flogged us in autumn 2014, when Murphy was scoring for fun and we were Top 2 at Christmas. But he would have thought that he was on the cusp of great things.
Right now I'm sure he doesn't really know what his medium term plan is. Most businessmen, when they're investing as he has been, will have a clear exit strategy in mind. It seems to me that he simply doesn't know what that is any more. | |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 17:31 - Mar 29 with 1668 views | Axeldalai_lama |
The bottom line is that very few fans would care in the slightest if he was investing amounts they thought suitable.
People are clamouring for anyone to take over, they are not saying make sure the new owner is ethical, pays all relevant taxes and loves the poor.
It's all about the money.
Until the money is slowed or stopped then suddenly the owner is up to no good. |  | | |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 18:02 - Mar 29 with 1658 views | Superfrans |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 13:47 - Mar 29 by DoobDude |
Yes but your table is nonsense as the deficit is nothing to to with the financial profit and loss.
Just because ITFC make a loss of £8m it doesn't mean Evans transferred £8m into ITFC. Many of the losses are down to interest charged, dividends and depreciation. |
It's really simple. If a company owned by one person makes a loss of £5m, that owner is covering those losses. This is, therefore, the minimum level of investment he is making in that company (potentially on top of other services he might be buying from the club, for instance, team shirt sponsorship).
So, unfortunately, you're wrong. This table is actually totally transparent.
There is a different debate to be had about whether this is enough investment, either in aggregate across the nine years, or over the last 2/3 years. But the basic principles are what they are. | |
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| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 18:09 - Mar 29 with 1648 views | sparks |
| Does anyone not think Evans is using us as some Tax purpose? on 18:02 - Mar 29 by Superfrans |
It's really simple. If a company owned by one person makes a loss of £5m, that owner is covering those losses. This is, therefore, the minimum level of investment he is making in that company (potentially on top of other services he might be buying from the club, for instance, team shirt sponsorship).
So, unfortunately, you're wrong. This table is actually totally transparent.
There is a different debate to be had about whether this is enough investment, either in aggregate across the nine years, or over the last 2/3 years. But the basic principles are what they are. |
Depreciation does have an impact on the cash injected. Its not huge, but does mitigate the same below the oft reported figure. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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