| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... 12:14 - Apr 10 with 6245 views | itfcjoe |
...when you see where we are in the division - i can't help but think that Evans' most costly mistake will be the one to have not backed Mick McCarthy properly.
The situation has gone on too long, and Mick has to go now because of how things are, but we are more likely to get worse than better without him here when you look at all the factors and history of his ownership.
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:29 - Apr 10 with 2358 views | Guthrum |
There's been a couple of times when a relatively small push, maybe two or three million, could have seen us over the line. The two January windows prior to this one, even going all-out to get a successor to Murphy at the end of August (imagine Lawrence, McGoldrick, Ward and, later, Huws all feeding a genuine goalscorer). |  |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:31 - Apr 10 with 2344 views | Reuser_is_God |
Yeah but we were right not to go for it in January 2015 because we may have upset the team spirit.
Or something like that.
In fairness Summer 2015 window made January 2015 look amazing. |  |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:33 - Apr 10 with 2320 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:29 - Apr 10 by Guthrum |
There's been a couple of times when a relatively small push, maybe two or three million, could have seen us over the line. The two January windows prior to this one, even going all-out to get a successor to Murphy at the end of August (imagine Lawrence, McGoldrick, Ward and, later, Huws all feeding a genuine goalscorer). |
I felt last January was a really odd time.
We finished 2015 with 2 wins, a last minute winner against QPR & then we beat Brighton away. Started 2016 well with a draw at Burnley & beat Leeds at home with another last minute winner.
But throughout that time I never felt there was any real belief that we could get into the top 6. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:39 - Apr 10 with 2297 views | Guthrum |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:29 - Apr 10 by Guthrum |
There's been a couple of times when a relatively small push, maybe two or three million, could have seen us over the line. The two January windows prior to this one, even going all-out to get a successor to Murphy at the end of August (imagine Lawrence, McGoldrick, Ward and, later, Huws all feeding a genuine goalscorer). |
I should point out that I defended the January 2015 one on the grounds there was no point in buying someone just for the sake of it if they weren't an improvement to the team. That was a mistake.
For one thing, we did have a mini collapse that spring. Also, at that time, I believed that FFP might work to drive prices down (which appeared to be starting to happen). Something which has since collapsed due to the feebleness of the FA/League and panicked profligacy among the clubs, compounded by massive increases in parachute payments. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:40 - Apr 10 with 2298 views | PhilTWTD |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:31 - Apr 10 by Reuser_is_God |
Yeah but we were right not to go for it in January 2015 because we may have upset the team spirit.
Or something like that.
In fairness Summer 2015 window made January 2015 look amazing. |
I'm always surprised that summer window isn't cited as a bigger factor in the subsequent downward drift as well. Virtually none of the permanent signings paid off that summer and some of them, Oar, for example, wouldn't have been bargain basement additions by any means.
In the January I didn't ever get the impression Mick wanted to make too many additions, seemed happy with his squad, aside from adding Sears, who proved a major success, and one or two experienced squad players such as Noel Hunt and Richard Chaplow, who augmented what was already here. Losing McGoldrick was a big blow but Sears's impact made up for his loss. |  | | |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:40 - Apr 10 with 2279 views | Steve_M |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:33 - Apr 10 by Reuser_is_God |
I felt last January was a really odd time.
We finished 2015 with 2 wins, a last minute winner against QPR & then we beat Brighton away. Started 2016 well with a draw at Burnley & beat Leeds at home with another last minute winner.
But throughout that time I never felt there was any real belief that we could get into the top 6. |
Not just those few matches but the entirety of November and December; 22 points from 30 which was only a bit worse than 26 from 30 at the end of 2014. I agree though, there wasn't the same belief on and off the pitch as a year earlier. Part of that is we had a weaker squad, but also the regular winning of home games a year earlier really inspired confidence.
Given we finished seventh without a great deal of momentum, and some truly awful performances, what might another good signing (and a fit Fraser) have added? |  |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:42 - Apr 10 with 2251 views | Ftnfwest |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:39 - Apr 10 by Guthrum |
I should point out that I defended the January 2015 one on the grounds there was no point in buying someone just for the sake of it if they weren't an improvement to the team. That was a mistake.
For one thing, we did have a mini collapse that spring. Also, at that time, I believed that FFP might work to drive prices down (which appeared to be starting to happen). Something which has since collapsed due to the feebleness of the FA/League and panicked profligacy among the clubs, compounded by massive increases in parachute payments. |
it is hindsight but its also exactly what MM was saying at the time (ie. nothing better anywhere else - obviously within reasonable limits) |  | | |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:43 - Apr 10 with 2253 views | Dubtractor |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:40 - Apr 10 by PhilTWTD |
I'm always surprised that summer window isn't cited as a bigger factor in the subsequent downward drift as well. Virtually none of the permanent signings paid off that summer and some of them, Oar, for example, wouldn't have been bargain basement additions by any means.
In the January I didn't ever get the impression Mick wanted to make too many additions, seemed happy with his squad, aside from adding Sears, who proved a major success, and one or two experienced squad players such as Noel Hunt and Richard Chaplow, who augmented what was already here. Losing McGoldrick was a big blow but Sears's impact made up for his loss. |
I moaned about that window a few times during that season and was shouted down by posters more in the Mick In camp.
Struck me at the time of signing the players that were available rather than who were needed or would fit our squad.
Oar is a prime example - a player not remotely suited to how Mick sets his teams up. |  |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:44 - Apr 10 with 2232 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:40 - Apr 10 by PhilTWTD |
I'm always surprised that summer window isn't cited as a bigger factor in the subsequent downward drift as well. Virtually none of the permanent signings paid off that summer and some of them, Oar, for example, wouldn't have been bargain basement additions by any means.
In the January I didn't ever get the impression Mick wanted to make too many additions, seemed happy with his squad, aside from adding Sears, who proved a major success, and one or two experienced squad players such as Noel Hunt and Richard Chaplow, who augmented what was already here. Losing McGoldrick was a big blow but Sears's impact made up for his loss. |
but we needed that extra injection of quality in the January. I know the McGoldrick injury was unfortunate & hindsight is a wonderful thing etc but I feel a couple of players bought in for sensible fees would've been a lot more beneficial.
That summer started okay, the Mings deal I felt was a good one & we got Fraser & Pitman. Also signed a cheap LB to replace Mings in Knudsen.
The incomings thereafter though have proved to be pretty awful:
Coke
Douglas
Toure
Oar
Malarczyk | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:47 - Apr 10 with 2211 views | Guthrum |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:40 - Apr 10 by Steve_M |
Not just those few matches but the entirety of November and December; 22 points from 30 which was only a bit worse than 26 from 30 at the end of 2014. I agree though, there wasn't the same belief on and off the pitch as a year earlier. Part of that is we had a weaker squad, but also the regular winning of home games a year earlier really inspired confidence.
Given we finished seventh without a great deal of momentum, and some truly awful performances, what might another good signing (and a fit Fraser) have added? |
It was the Portsmouth results and then the hammering at Birmingham after Douglas was sent off (ironically, a decent performance by Town) which started the slide. Then the away defeat at QPR, the loss of Fraser and the confidence evaporated. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:48 - Apr 10 with 2204 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:43 - Apr 10 by Dubtractor |
I moaned about that window a few times during that season and was shouted down by posters more in the Mick In camp.
Struck me at the time of signing the players that were available rather than who were needed or would fit our squad.
Oar is a prime example - a player not remotely suited to how Mick sets his teams up. |
I think Oar is suited to an MM set up. A winger who likes to beat his man & get crosses in is what MM had built his previous sides on but, for whatever reason, he's just not done that here.
Typical MM side:
Solid back 4 - Yeah, he's had that at Town
2 sitting midfielders - Never had a dominant CM partnership apart from a few months of Bishop & Skuse in 14/15
2 flying wingers - Never had that
2 strikers who compliment each other - Had it with McGoldrick & Murphy & then Murphy & Sears. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:49 - Apr 10 with 2189 views | Dubtractor |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:48 - Apr 10 by Reuser_is_God |
I think Oar is suited to an MM set up. A winger who likes to beat his man & get crosses in is what MM had built his previous sides on but, for whatever reason, he's just not done that here.
Typical MM side:
Solid back 4 - Yeah, he's had that at Town
2 sitting midfielders - Never had a dominant CM partnership apart from a few months of Bishop & Skuse in 14/15
2 flying wingers - Never had that
2 strikers who compliment each other - Had it with McGoldrick & Murphy & then Murphy & Sears. |
I should have said how Mick has set his teams up here - the flying winger bit hasn't really happened. Whether that is by design is debatable given just how many wingers he has signed! | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:50 - Apr 10 with 2190 views | PhilTWTD |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:43 - Apr 10 by Dubtractor |
I moaned about that window a few times during that season and was shouted down by posters more in the Mick In camp.
Struck me at the time of signing the players that were available rather than who were needed or would fit our squad.
Oar is a prime example - a player not remotely suited to how Mick sets his teams up. |
I thought Oar would be a decent signing, an out and out winger but games just went on around him, looked miles off the standard required. Malarczyk similarly was on the verge of the Poland squad when he came in but got nowhere here. | | | |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:50 - Apr 10 with 2178 views | Steve_M |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:43 - Apr 10 by Dubtractor |
I moaned about that window a few times during that season and was shouted down by posters more in the Mick In camp.
Struck me at the time of signing the players that were available rather than who were needed or would fit our squad.
Oar is a prime example - a player not remotely suited to how Mick sets his teams up. |
I think MM was really determined to try a different approach but, when it went wrong, we didn't really have the squad to fall back on a more basic approach. It's worth remembering how good his Wolves promotion side were with fast breaking wingers.
Somewhat ironic then, that it was in trying to change the aesthetics of the side that MM messed up what he was doing well. I don't think we've recovered the same sense of purpose - and selling Murphy ruined the last chance to regain it under MM. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:52 - Apr 10 with 2148 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:40 - Apr 10 by Steve_M |
Not just those few matches but the entirety of November and December; 22 points from 30 which was only a bit worse than 26 from 30 at the end of 2014. I agree though, there wasn't the same belief on and off the pitch as a year earlier. Part of that is we had a weaker squad, but also the regular winning of home games a year earlier really inspired confidence.
Given we finished seventh without a great deal of momentum, and some truly awful performances, what might another good signing (and a fit Fraser) have added? |
I think MM went too far the other way after the Reading hammering too. That scarred him far too much. It was a freak game where they had 5 shots scored 5 goals. They just picked us off because Skuse &/or Douglas were the wrong side of the ball when they didn't need to be.
If we'd have had a plan last season of Douglas & Skuse sitting in midfield backing up an attack of 4 from Murph, Pitman, Sears, McG & Fraser & stuck to that I think we'd have been a lot better off.
It was also the first time in his reign that MM hasn't really had much clear thinking of what he should be doing with the players at his disposal. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:53 - Apr 10 with 2150 views | Guthrum |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:50 - Apr 10 by PhilTWTD |
I thought Oar would be a decent signing, an out and out winger but games just went on around him, looked miles off the standard required. Malarczyk similarly was on the verge of the Poland squad when he came in but got nowhere here. |
Is that a difficulty of players coming in from abroad into the current English game, particularly the Championship? By that I mean a marked change things like in style, openness and physicality.
Another example is how Civelli flourished after returning to South America. [Post edited 10 Apr 2017 12:55]
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:56 - Apr 10 with 2120 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:49 - Apr 10 by Dubtractor |
I should have said how Mick has set his teams up here - the flying winger bit hasn't really happened. Whether that is by design is debatable given just how many wingers he has signed! |
I think it's something he has wanted to do but it's just never come off.
After the play off season it's clear that MM felt the way to move us on to the next level was to improve the attacking threat from midfield hence replacing Tabb & Anderson with Fraser & Niles but for one reason or another that just didn't work out. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:59 - Apr 10 with 2098 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:53 - Apr 10 by Guthrum |
Is that a difficulty of players coming in from abroad into the current English game, particularly the Championship? By that I mean a marked change things like in style, openness and physicality.
Another example is how Civelli flourished after returning to South America. [Post edited 10 Apr 2017 12:55]
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In fairness to Civelli he looked okay in his games before his injury here.
No doubt it's a big change but I think top players will be able to adjust fairly quickly. Look at players like Mahrez & Knockaert when Leicester signed them, both were superb in the Championship & arguably adjusted quicker than Vardy who had played in the rough & tumble of non league. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:03 - Apr 10 with 2071 views | RoyKeanesDog |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:44 - Apr 10 by Reuser_is_God |
but we needed that extra injection of quality in the January. I know the McGoldrick injury was unfortunate & hindsight is a wonderful thing etc but I feel a couple of players bought in for sensible fees would've been a lot more beneficial.
That summer started okay, the Mings deal I felt was a good one & we got Fraser & Pitman. Also signed a cheap LB to replace Mings in Knudsen.
The incomings thereafter though have proved to be pretty awful:
Coke
Douglas
Toure
Oar
Malarczyk |
That's harsh on Douglas. |  |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:08 - Apr 10 with 2056 views | ASAx |
Would it be fair to say most of us agree that if McCarthy goes the chances are it'll get worse.
However, if McCarthy stays the chances are it'll get worse.
In my view unless Evans absolutely nails it with a managerial appointment of the next Howe or Dyche or a Stam type and also gives them money when he wouldn't even trust Mick with it, then we are probably screwed.
The evidence is that Evans won't give a new manager any new funds and probably won't make a good managerial appointment, although to be fair he got it right last time. |  | | |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:09 - Apr 10 with 2039 views | PhilTWTD |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:39 - Apr 10 by Guthrum |
I should point out that I defended the January 2015 one on the grounds there was no point in buying someone just for the sake of it if they weren't an improvement to the team. That was a mistake.
For one thing, we did have a mini collapse that spring. Also, at that time, I believed that FFP might work to drive prices down (which appeared to be starting to happen). Something which has since collapsed due to the feebleness of the FA/League and panicked profligacy among the clubs, compounded by massive increases in parachute payments. |
On the first point, I do seem to remember Manchester City's signing of Rodney Marsh and their subsequent collapse in an early-seventies season getting a mention at a press conference. Mick didn't want to upset the balance of the squad in that manner. | | | |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:12 - Apr 10 with 2012 views | Guthrum |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:08 - Apr 10 by ASAx |
Would it be fair to say most of us agree that if McCarthy goes the chances are it'll get worse.
However, if McCarthy stays the chances are it'll get worse.
In my view unless Evans absolutely nails it with a managerial appointment of the next Howe or Dyche or a Stam type and also gives them money when he wouldn't even trust Mick with it, then we are probably screwed.
The evidence is that Evans won't give a new manager any new funds and probably won't make a good managerial appointment, although to be fair he got it right last time. |
McCarthy was recommended by the departing Jewell, according to reports and their comments at the time. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:13 - Apr 10 with 2002 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:08 - Apr 10 by ASAx |
Would it be fair to say most of us agree that if McCarthy goes the chances are it'll get worse.
However, if McCarthy stays the chances are it'll get worse.
In my view unless Evans absolutely nails it with a managerial appointment of the next Howe or Dyche or a Stam type and also gives them money when he wouldn't even trust Mick with it, then we are probably screwed.
The evidence is that Evans won't give a new manager any new funds and probably won't make a good managerial appointment, although to be fair he got it right last time. |
I think it'll be interesting to see what changes Evans makes, if any, in between Mick leaving & appointing his replacement. | |
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| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:15 - Apr 10 with 1996 views | PhilTWTD |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 12:53 - Apr 10 by Guthrum |
Is that a difficulty of players coming in from abroad into the current English game, particularly the Championship? By that I mean a marked change things like in style, openness and physicality.
Another example is how Civelli flourished after returning to South America. [Post edited 10 Apr 2017 12:55]
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Perhaps, still significant failures given the budget. Thought Civelli was starting to find his feet when he got injured, but we'll never know how he might have done after half a season or so here.
Probably harsh of me to overlook Knudsen and Douglas - even if he's not a fans' favourite he has been in the manager's plans for most of his time here - and Pitman has also played a significant part, even if he's probably off the bench rather than starting (although he won't be happy with that viewpoint, I'm sure). | | | |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:16 - Apr 10 with 1983 views | RoyKeanesDog |
| Looking at all the Swiss Ramble tweets.... on 13:09 - Apr 10 by PhilTWTD |
On the first point, I do seem to remember Manchester City's signing of Rodney Marsh and their subsequent collapse in an early-seventies season getting a mention at a press conference. Mick didn't want to upset the balance of the squad in that manner. |
It was a difficult one to judge as the team spirit was probably our best weapon.
That season was so open though, a new signing could've resulted in us winning the title, or finishing 8th.
Darren Currie's arrival springs to mind. That's not a criticism of Currie as a player, because I rated him - his general style of the play seemed to affect our quick paced game. | |
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