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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... 09:51 - May 25 with 5966 viewsunstableblue

That I think deserve an airing, especially given some of the narrow thinking that is surfacing.

1. The organisations promoting Jihad and radicalisation such as ISIS and Al-Qaeda, and this general hyper conservative movement is born from the Wahhabism sect, a splinter group of Sunni Islam. This movement is well supported and funded by groups within Saudi Arabia. Two key points: 1. This group believe fanatically that Shia and Yazidi muslims should also be targeted and are heretics. 2. Trump recently blamed Iran and therefore Shias for promoting terrorism rather than focussing on Saudi Arabia, as did George W Bush before him in focussing on Iraq rather than the source of terrorism funding and motivation.

2. Disenfranchised young men, many of whom will have been bullied and marginalised in their youth, much like those lone gun men who perpetrate atrocities in the US, are drawn to the thick bonds and trust, the sense of belonging among radical movements. They are also drawn to the 'hyper-masculine' sense of adventure in Jihad. 'Better than call of duty' one ISIS member declared. Furthermore, destabilised countries such as Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan where rule of law has been undermined and where sectarianism is leading to 'norms' of anti-woman and anti-gay hatred, hyper conservatism give these lone wolfs justification and targets.

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:00 - May 25 with 2584 viewsnoggin

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 12:47 - May 25 by ThePitBoss

You and other libtards, yep.


Well read and insightful as always.

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:07 - May 25 with 2573 viewsFreddies_Ears

When you add to the picture the UK's enthusiasm to boost our economy by selling arms to the Saudis, there seems to be some kind of vicious circle emerging.
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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:10 - May 25 with 2573 viewsGuthrum

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 12:48 - May 25 by unbelievablue

Safe to say he didn't like jazz.


Curious really, he both objected to the racial prejudice which he was on the receiving end of and, at the same time, looked down on American negroes and their culture.

Plus he had the thing which often seems to afflict puritanical fanatics - a morbid fear of open sexuality.

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:14 - May 25 with 2564 viewsunbelievablue

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:10 - May 25 by Guthrum

Curious really, he both objected to the racial prejudice which he was on the receiving end of and, at the same time, looked down on American negroes and their culture.

Plus he had the thing which often seems to afflict puritanical fanatics - a morbid fear of open sexuality.


Vehemently anti-Semitic too.

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:20 - May 25 with 2556 viewsGuthrum

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 12:47 - May 25 by ThePitBoss

You and other libtards, yep.


Given Islamic State are arch-conservatives (small c), and modern Western society derives from the Liberal Enlightenment, which side are you on?

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:21 - May 25 with 2552 viewsunbelievablue

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:07 - May 25 by Freddies_Ears

When you add to the picture the UK's enthusiasm to boost our economy by selling arms to the Saudis, there seems to be some kind of vicious circle emerging.


Emerging? ;)

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:31 - May 25 with 2527 viewsfeelingblue

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:10 - May 25 by Guthrum

Curious really, he both objected to the racial prejudice which he was on the receiving end of and, at the same time, looked down on American negroes and their culture.

Plus he had the thing which often seems to afflict puritanical fanatics - a morbid fear of open sexuality.


Much like Gandhi, on the racial issue.
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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 14:20 - May 25 with 2502 viewsgordon

Think point 2. is very, very important. Riz Ahmed's recent speech on diversity on TV in parliament was a brilliant, brilliant piece of oration with massively important ideas, in my opinion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/riz-ahmed-diversity-media_us_58c08c5fe4b0d10
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on 14:32 - May 25 with 2485 views_

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:31 - May 25 by feelingblue

Much like Gandhi, on the racial issue.


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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 15:07 - May 25 with 2460 viewsDarth_Koont

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 14:20 - May 25 by gordon

Think point 2. is very, very important. Riz Ahmed's recent speech on diversity on TV in parliament was a brilliant, brilliant piece of oration with massively important ideas, in my opinion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/riz-ahmed-diversity-media_us_58c08c5fe4b0d10


Thanks for that - I hadn't caught it before but it's a fantastic speech that raises so many more issues than just a discussion of diversity in British media.

The idea of true representation and a story that all in the UK can share without exclusion is hugely important. In fact, I think it's the most important discussion in our politics and media.

Everyone should watch it - especially our political leaders and media owners who then should be questioned on it to understand why they don't get it.

On a side note - I also had no idea that Riz Ahmed was British after seeing him in The Night Of and Rogue One. And if he doesn't become a world superstar then he should definitely enter politics.

Pronouns: He/Him

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 15:17 - May 25 with 2448 viewsfeelingblue

on 14:32 - May 25 by _



Yes, if you really want to get things to kick off try pointing out that Fidel Castro was a nasty dictator who imprisoned his enemies, gays etc
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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 17:25 - May 25 with 2423 viewsClausThomsen

All thinking on this is narrow, because the information provided to the public will be narrow.

This is all second-hand information and therefore worthless to anyone with any sort of self-value and life experience.

Have you met an extremist? Tried to talk to one? Have you any personal experience with ISIS?

If not, be careful of believing what others tell you. They may have an agenda and benefit from your collective assuming.

Thanks
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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 17:48 - May 25 with 2402 viewsSteve_M

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 17:25 - May 25 by ClausThomsen

All thinking on this is narrow, because the information provided to the public will be narrow.

This is all second-hand information and therefore worthless to anyone with any sort of self-value and life experience.

Have you met an extremist? Tried to talk to one? Have you any personal experience with ISIS?

If not, be careful of believing what others tell you. They may have an agenda and benefit from your collective assuming.

Thanks


You don't understand anything about evaluating sources and evidence do you? It's a somewhat familiar failing.

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 18:43 - May 25 with 2385 viewsClausThomsen

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 17:48 - May 25 by Steve_M

You don't understand anything about evaluating sources and evidence do you? It's a somewhat familiar failing.


Absolutely I do, even when it's uncomfortable.

As soon as anything gets uncomfortable for you, you do what you just did - attack the messenger.

Living in a world where the odd foreign bloke explodes, resulting in an annual tally of deaths well shy of deaths caused by peanut is a king-size luxury mattress compared to the truth of what's going on today.

Deception is a mastered art.
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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 18:46 - May 25 with 2378 viewsunbelievablue

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 18:43 - May 25 by ClausThomsen

Absolutely I do, even when it's uncomfortable.

As soon as anything gets uncomfortable for you, you do what you just did - attack the messenger.

Living in a world where the odd foreign bloke explodes, resulting in an annual tally of deaths well shy of deaths caused by peanut is a king-size luxury mattress compared to the truth of what's going on today.

Deception is a mastered art.


Care to offer some insight, rather than this deranged obfuscation?

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 00:20 - May 26 with 2307 viewscaught-in-limbo

That's not a bad summary, but there are a few glaring omissions. I don't know your precise source so I can't tell if these omissions are intentional or not.

Notes on paragraph 1.

As well as Shia muslims, Wahabbis will also regard sunni muslims as heretics too. The fundamental difference between Wahabbis and mainstream sunni is the devotion shown to Mohammad. To a Wahabbi, Mohammad was just a bloke and any special devotion shown to him is punishable by death! Sunni beliefs and practices are as good as identical to Shia beliefs on this issue.

The Yezidi are not Muslims. I think the hatred shown by ISIS towards the Yezidi is not so much based on deviance from Islam, but more about geopolitics and the fact that many ethnic Kurds are Yezidi.

There is a tendency in the west (especially in nominally Christian countries) to force parallels between Islam and Christianity when trying to understand the different strands of Islam. There's a general misconception that Shia and Sunni are a bit like Protestants and Catholics and that Wahabbis/Salafis are a radicalised version of the Sunnis (and that ISIS is like the IRA or the UDA). This is a dangerous (and over simplistic) interpretation of Islam and completely wrong especially when trying to understand ISIS and their enemies. Comments such as "the co-existance of Sunnis and Shia is like a tinder box waiting to burst into flames" is a typical western opinion which has its reasoning based on interpreting Islam through inappropriate parallels in Christianity.

Notes on paragraph 2.

There's a lot of speculation in the UK about what drives young Muslims to join ISIS and it's summarised in your second paragraph. It should be noted that while wahhabism is distinctly political, it is not necessarily violent. Rather, it is easily antagonised and turned violent because its foot soldiers are incredibly uneducated and ignorant. Those higher up the hierarchy are often very intelligent but in it for political gain.

Wahabbism is based on a very selective interpretation of the Quran. You won't find a scholar of the Quran (or any educated Muslim) joining ISIS.

Young men joining ISIS from the west are generally radicalised by religious leaders in European mosques practising Wahabbism/Salafism - they should all be shut down. The reason they are not shut down is not so much because we live in a generous multi-faith practising society but more because our intelligence agencies use them. This is why all ISIS terrorist are known to the intelligence agencies throughout Europe.

ISIS and al Nusra membership for young men living in the Middle East comes about for 2 reasons. For those from Syria and Iraq it's mainly because they are given a choice of join or die. For those from the Gulf States the monthly pay is very good and you get fancy cars to drive, guns to shoot and girls to rape and it's much better than being in a Saudi or Qatari prison.

Finally, we often restrict Wahabbism to the Gulf states and Pakistan, but there's also another key area of the continent where its influence is significant - the former Soviet states in central Asia and in the Caucasus. As I said earlier, it's not necessarily a violent religion but it easily antagonised. It is for this reason that the West has a particular interest in these countries .

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on 11:39 - May 26 with 2282 views_

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 15:17 - May 25 by feelingblue

Yes, if you really want to get things to kick off try pointing out that Fidel Castro was a nasty dictator who imprisoned his enemies, gays etc


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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 11:41 - May 26 with 2278 viewsfeelingblue

on 11:39 - May 26 by _



'the often ignored negatives that surround the characters concerned'
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on 11:43 - May 26 with 2274 views_

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 11:41 - May 26 by feelingblue

'the often ignored negatives that surround the characters concerned'


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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 12:14 - May 26 with 2255 viewsfeelingblue

on 11:43 - May 26 by _



Yes, very often held up to be some sort of hero, but doesn't stand much scrutiny. Can't see why anyone wouldn't put him in the same mix.
After all, Che Guevara was one of the examples originally?
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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 12:25 - May 26 with 2246 viewsDarth_Koont

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 12:14 - May 26 by feelingblue

Yes, very often held up to be some sort of hero, but doesn't stand much scrutiny. Can't see why anyone wouldn't put him in the same mix.
After all, Che Guevara was one of the examples originally?


Talking of Che ... re-read the Motorcycle Diaries last month. While it's interesting to see his belief in Panamerican solidarity take form (as well as a clear sympathy for the working class and those excluded by society including real lepers not just metaphorical ones) he's less than complimentary about native american indians, blacks and there's even a snide comment about Jews too.

I suppose that was far more normal in the 1950s but still nothing like the social equality we take as read today.

Pronouns: He/Him

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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 12:38 - May 26 with 2232 viewsfeelingblue

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 12:25 - May 26 by Darth_Koont

Talking of Che ... re-read the Motorcycle Diaries last month. While it's interesting to see his belief in Panamerican solidarity take form (as well as a clear sympathy for the working class and those excluded by society including real lepers not just metaphorical ones) he's less than complimentary about native american indians, blacks and there's even a snide comment about Jews too.

I suppose that was far more normal in the 1950s but still nothing like the social equality we take as read today.


Yes, and while racism was endemic in almost every society in the 30s 40s 50s, and arguably still is, you would have like to have thought that some of the people held up as exemplars by so many, might have managed to get beyond prejudice and think for themselves.
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Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:16 - May 26 with 2210 viewsEireannach_gorm

Two interesting views from the Indepedent on Manchester... on 13:10 - May 25 by Guthrum

Curious really, he both objected to the racial prejudice which he was on the receiving end of and, at the same time, looked down on American negroes and their culture.

Plus he had the thing which often seems to afflict puritanical fanatics - a morbid fear of open sexuality.


A genuine 5 star bigot. Astonishing how such people attract substantial support.
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