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Well said Tim Farron 10:56 - May 26 with 15811 viewsGlasgowBlue

Calling Corbyn out.

[Post edited 26 May 2017 10:56]

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:00 - May 26 with 4761 viewschicoazul

I dont enjoy this holier than thou posturing politicians and the commentariat take about when it's ok to talk about these things.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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Well said Tim Farron on 11:02 - May 26 with 4745 viewsconnorscontract

In what way is Farron not "using that grotesque act to make a political point" here?

One person made a scheduled, full speech on Foreign Policy, in which he couldn't ignore the effect of British Foreign Policy on disaffected Muslim youth here in the context of what's happened.

The other has only talked about the bombing, in emotive terms, purely to make a political point against one of his opponents.

The second of those looks more opportunistic and exploitative of the tragedy, to me.
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Well said Tim Farron on 11:03 - May 26 with 4740 viewsSwansea_Blue

The timing is awful, agreed, and shows his amateur approach and why he'll not get in.

But put aside the poor timing, and he's got some valid points that should be addressed in the future.

I don't see what's wrong with any of the following:

- "many experts, including professionals in our intelligence and security services have pointed to the connections between wars our government has supported or fought in other countries and terrorism here at home"

- That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and held to account for their actions"

- "But an informed understanding of the causes of terrorism is an essential part of an effective response that will protect the security of our people that fights rather than fuels terrorism."

- "The 'war on terror' is simply not working"

- "We need a smarter way to reduce the threat from countries that nurture terrorists and generate terrorism."

- "No government can prevent every terrorist attack. If an individual is determined enough and callous enough, sometimes they will get through."

- "the responsibility of government is to minimise that chance - to ensure the police have the resources they need, that our foreign policy reduces rather than increases the threat to this country, and that at home we never surrender the freedoms we have won and that terrorists are so determined to take away."

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:04 - May 26 with 4724 viewsSwansea_Blue

Well said Tim Farron on 11:00 - May 26 by chicoazul

I dont enjoy this holier than thou posturing politicians and the commentariat take about when it's ok to talk about these things.


Agreed. Things aren't working and we need to re-evaluate our approach. Maybe the timing is wrong, but it's relevant.

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:07 - May 26 with 4721 viewsBOjK

You will know I'm no fan of Corbyn, but if we can't discuss these issues two weeks before a general election when (now, tragically) security and terrorism are issues when can we?

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:07 - May 26 with 4719 viewsCaptainObvious

seems more like political opportunism from Farron to me. you can't not talk about foreign policy, especially when you've previously been proven right on a number of occasions.

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:10 - May 26 with 4694 viewschicoazul

Well said Tim Farron on 11:02 - May 26 by connorscontract

In what way is Farron not "using that grotesque act to make a political point" here?

One person made a scheduled, full speech on Foreign Policy, in which he couldn't ignore the effect of British Foreign Policy on disaffected Muslim youth here in the context of what's happened.

The other has only talked about the bombing, in emotive terms, purely to make a political point against one of his opponents.

The second of those looks more opportunistic and exploitative of the tragedy, to me.


It's an example of Orwellian doublespeak. Criticising someone for talking about something , by talking about the very same something.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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Well said Tim Farron on 11:10 - May 26 with 4694 viewsSuperfrans

The timing could have been better, I would accept. But I'm not sure what the parties are supposed to come back talking about - litter?

I was thinking about this last night, as it happens - it is a crying shame that we are unable, as a society, to have a rational debate about these massive issues. It is undeniable that foreign policy strategy has helped create the conditions in which a UK-born 23yo feels he needs to strap a rucksack to his back and blow up over 80 people at a pop concert. It is not the ONLY reason, but it is contributing - and no-one (including Corbyn, in his speech) says that this absolves the murderer from his responsibility. Of course.

This is an important debate. I know we're in the middle of a general election campaign, but these are important issues. We need to debate them.

Likewise, we need to be able to have a debate about our role in arming these people - or the people who cultivate and (in some cases) arm these people. It's utterly disingenuous for us to not just turn a blind eye, but facilitate the deals which, yes, generate huge sums, but also help allow these awful, horrible acts to take place.

Unfortunately, we instead find ourselves engaged in cartoon politics. The media is complicit in this, but our political operators are just as responsible for refusing to say, "No - we need real, informed debate about some of these issues". I'm not surprised the Tories have taken this position - they have most to lose and are transparently trying to fight (and will win) the election on the same post-truth strategies as won the Brexit and US votes last year - but I am surprised by Farron.
[Post edited 26 May 2017 11:12]

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:10 - May 26 with 4687 viewsGlasgowBlue

Well said Tim Farron on 11:02 - May 26 by connorscontract

In what way is Farron not "using that grotesque act to make a political point" here?

One person made a scheduled, full speech on Foreign Policy, in which he couldn't ignore the effect of British Foreign Policy on disaffected Muslim youth here in the context of what's happened.

The other has only talked about the bombing, in emotive terms, purely to make a political point against one of his opponents.

The second of those looks more opportunistic and exploitative of the tragedy, to me.


"in which he couldn't ignore the effect of British Foreign Policy on disaffected Muslim youth here in the context of what's happened"

Corbyn is saying, just 4 days after the Manchester bombing, that it is our fault. He's excusing the scumbag who carried out the attack.

He's also ignoring the point that Islamist terrorism such as 9/11 pre dates "the war on terror".

IS aren't sending people to kill us because of our foreign policy. They are killing us because they hate our liberal and free society.

Our equal rights for women. Our love of music. Our society that sees a man marry a man and a woman marry a woman.

Saying British foreign policy created this animal is like saying our tolerant society created the man who killed Jo Cox.

France sat out the Iraq War. Belgium don't get involved in middle east action. The Germans for obvious reasons take more of a back seat when it comes to military intervention.All have been attacked far more than the UK over the past two years.

It's also worth noting that the Manchester bomber was a supporter of British foreign policy. He was delighted when we overthrew Gaddafi.
[Post edited 26 May 2017 11:11]

Iron Lion Zion
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Well said Tim Farron on 11:12 - May 26 with 4663 viewsconnorscontract

Well said Tim Farron on 11:03 - May 26 by Swansea_Blue

The timing is awful, agreed, and shows his amateur approach and why he'll not get in.

But put aside the poor timing, and he's got some valid points that should be addressed in the future.

I don't see what's wrong with any of the following:

- "many experts, including professionals in our intelligence and security services have pointed to the connections between wars our government has supported or fought in other countries and terrorism here at home"

- That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and held to account for their actions"

- "But an informed understanding of the causes of terrorism is an essential part of an effective response that will protect the security of our people that fights rather than fuels terrorism."

- "The 'war on terror' is simply not working"

- "We need a smarter way to reduce the threat from countries that nurture terrorists and generate terrorism."

- "No government can prevent every terrorist attack. If an individual is determined enough and callous enough, sometimes they will get through."

- "the responsibility of government is to minimise that chance - to ensure the police have the resources they need, that our foreign policy reduces rather than increases the threat to this country, and that at home we never surrender the freedoms we have won and that terrorists are so determined to take away."


Tim Farron disagrees with that, apparently. He's badly gone down in my estimation here.
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Well said Tim Farron on 11:13 - May 26 with 4654 viewsBOjK

Well said Tim Farron on 11:10 - May 26 by GlasgowBlue

"in which he couldn't ignore the effect of British Foreign Policy on disaffected Muslim youth here in the context of what's happened"

Corbyn is saying, just 4 days after the Manchester bombing, that it is our fault. He's excusing the scumbag who carried out the attack.

He's also ignoring the point that Islamist terrorism such as 9/11 pre dates "the war on terror".

IS aren't sending people to kill us because of our foreign policy. They are killing us because they hate our liberal and free society.

Our equal rights for women. Our love of music. Our society that sees a man marry a man and a woman marry a woman.

Saying British foreign policy created this animal is like saying our tolerant society created the man who killed Jo Cox.

France sat out the Iraq War. Belgium don't get involved in middle east action. The Germans for obvious reasons take more of a back seat when it comes to military intervention.All have been attacked far more than the UK over the past two years.

It's also worth noting that the Manchester bomber was a supporter of British foreign policy. He was delighted when we overthrew Gaddafi.
[Post edited 26 May 2017 11:11]


So what you are saying in this thread is you disagree with Corbyn. Fair enough. So do I.

But he's perfectly entitled to raise these issues, and I don't find it in the least bit troublesome that he raises them now.

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:13 - May 26 with 4651 viewsGlasgowBlue

Well said Tim Farron on 11:07 - May 26 by BOjK

You will know I'm no fan of Corbyn, but if we can't discuss these issues two weeks before a general election when (now, tragically) security and terrorism are issues when can we?


Then we are free to talk about Corbyn's disgraceful record in supporting and excusing terrorists. And how since 1983 he has voted against every bit of anti terrorism legislation put before the HOC by both Labour and Tory governments.

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:13 - May 26 with 4647 viewsconnorscontract

Well said Tim Farron on 11:10 - May 26 by chicoazul

It's an example of Orwellian doublespeak. Criticising someone for talking about something , by talking about the very same something.


And in this case talking about it very emotively, whereas Corbyn was very careful and nuanced.
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Well said Tim Farron on 11:15 - May 26 with 4627 viewsGlasgowBlue

Well said Tim Farron on 11:13 - May 26 by BOjK

So what you are saying in this thread is you disagree with Corbyn. Fair enough. So do I.

But he's perfectly entitled to raise these issues, and I don't find it in the least bit troublesome that he raises them now.


As lowhouse said before Gav messed with the board, his speech is as every bit opportunistic as UKip using the Manchester bombing to push their anti immigrant rhetoric.

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:16 - May 26 with 4601 viewstcblue

Well said Tim Farron on 11:10 - May 26 by GlasgowBlue

"in which he couldn't ignore the effect of British Foreign Policy on disaffected Muslim youth here in the context of what's happened"

Corbyn is saying, just 4 days after the Manchester bombing, that it is our fault. He's excusing the scumbag who carried out the attack.

He's also ignoring the point that Islamist terrorism such as 9/11 pre dates "the war on terror".

IS aren't sending people to kill us because of our foreign policy. They are killing us because they hate our liberal and free society.

Our equal rights for women. Our love of music. Our society that sees a man marry a man and a woman marry a woman.

Saying British foreign policy created this animal is like saying our tolerant society created the man who killed Jo Cox.

France sat out the Iraq War. Belgium don't get involved in middle east action. The Germans for obvious reasons take more of a back seat when it comes to military intervention.All have been attacked far more than the UK over the past two years.

It's also worth noting that the Manchester bomber was a supporter of British foreign policy. He was delighted when we overthrew Gaddafi.
[Post edited 26 May 2017 11:11]


You seem to know an awful lot about ISIS and what they don't like. Gitmo for Glassers
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Well said Tim Farron on 11:19 - May 26 with 4569 viewsconnorscontract

Well said Tim Farron on 11:10 - May 26 by GlasgowBlue

"in which he couldn't ignore the effect of British Foreign Policy on disaffected Muslim youth here in the context of what's happened"

Corbyn is saying, just 4 days after the Manchester bombing, that it is our fault. He's excusing the scumbag who carried out the attack.

He's also ignoring the point that Islamist terrorism such as 9/11 pre dates "the war on terror".

IS aren't sending people to kill us because of our foreign policy. They are killing us because they hate our liberal and free society.

Our equal rights for women. Our love of music. Our society that sees a man marry a man and a woman marry a woman.

Saying British foreign policy created this animal is like saying our tolerant society created the man who killed Jo Cox.

France sat out the Iraq War. Belgium don't get involved in middle east action. The Germans for obvious reasons take more of a back seat when it comes to military intervention.All have been attacked far more than the UK over the past two years.

It's also worth noting that the Manchester bomber was a supporter of British foreign policy. He was delighted when we overthrew Gaddafi.
[Post edited 26 May 2017 11:11]


What part of:

"That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and held to account for their actions" 

don't you understand.

Disingenuous playing of the man, not the ball, there, Glassers. At least be accurate and debate it properly. Like we're supposed to in a democracy.
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Well said Tim Farron on 11:21 - May 26 with 4553 viewsBOjK

Well said Tim Farron on 11:13 - May 26 by GlasgowBlue

Then we are free to talk about Corbyn's disgraceful record in supporting and excusing terrorists. And how since 1983 he has voted against every bit of anti terrorism legislation put before the HOC by both Labour and Tory governments.


I'm not the one starting threads saying we shouldn't talk about certain things. You are.

You seem to want to have it both ways. Engage with Corbyn on the issues he raises and criticise him for raising those issues.

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on 11:24 - May 26 with 4537 views_

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:24 - May 26 with 4531 viewsGlasgowBlue

Well said Tim Farron on 11:19 - May 26 by connorscontract

What part of:

"That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and held to account for their actions" 

don't you understand.

Disingenuous playing of the man, not the ball, there, Glassers. At least be accurate and debate it properly. Like we're supposed to in a democracy.


Thanks for completely ignoring the points I raised regarding France, Belgium and Germany.

As for playing the man. He's a hypocrite. He voted against every piece of anti terrorism legislation introduced in the HOC legislation from both Labour, Conservative/Liberal coalition and conservative governments. Legislation design to combat terrorists and keep us safe.

And then he bragged about voting against anti terror legislation at a STW meeting.

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:24 - May 26 with 4532 viewsSuperfrans

Well said Tim Farron on 11:10 - May 26 by GlasgowBlue

"in which he couldn't ignore the effect of British Foreign Policy on disaffected Muslim youth here in the context of what's happened"

Corbyn is saying, just 4 days after the Manchester bombing, that it is our fault. He's excusing the scumbag who carried out the attack.

He's also ignoring the point that Islamist terrorism such as 9/11 pre dates "the war on terror".

IS aren't sending people to kill us because of our foreign policy. They are killing us because they hate our liberal and free society.

Our equal rights for women. Our love of music. Our society that sees a man marry a man and a woman marry a woman.

Saying British foreign policy created this animal is like saying our tolerant society created the man who killed Jo Cox.

France sat out the Iraq War. Belgium don't get involved in middle east action. The Germans for obvious reasons take more of a back seat when it comes to military intervention.All have been attacked far more than the UK over the past two years.

It's also worth noting that the Manchester bomber was a supporter of British foreign policy. He was delighted when we overthrew Gaddafi.
[Post edited 26 May 2017 11:11]


Corbyn's speech today: "That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and held to account for their actions."

We need to be able to read more than one or two soundbites if we're going to debate these issues.

Also, you know full well that Al Qaeda were funded and supported by the western alliances (including the UK) through the Eighties, when we viewed them as a preferable alternative to the Russians in Afghanistan. We helped create them.

It isn't simple, it's incredibly complex. But to suggest that our foreign policy (and the foreign policies we support, such as those of the US and the rest of Nato) has had no influence in creating the monster of Islamic State etc just doesn't stack up.

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:26 - May 26 with 4514 viewsSwansea_Blue

Well said Tim Farron on 11:10 - May 26 by GlasgowBlue

"in which he couldn't ignore the effect of British Foreign Policy on disaffected Muslim youth here in the context of what's happened"

Corbyn is saying, just 4 days after the Manchester bombing, that it is our fault. He's excusing the scumbag who carried out the attack.

He's also ignoring the point that Islamist terrorism such as 9/11 pre dates "the war on terror".

IS aren't sending people to kill us because of our foreign policy. They are killing us because they hate our liberal and free society.

Our equal rights for women. Our love of music. Our society that sees a man marry a man and a woman marry a woman.

Saying British foreign policy created this animal is like saying our tolerant society created the man who killed Jo Cox.

France sat out the Iraq War. Belgium don't get involved in middle east action. The Germans for obvious reasons take more of a back seat when it comes to military intervention.All have been attacked far more than the UK over the past two years.

It's also worth noting that the Manchester bomber was a supporter of British foreign policy. He was delighted when we overthrew Gaddafi.
[Post edited 26 May 2017 11:11]


Except he's not saying it's our fault - "That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and held to account for their actions"

ISIS are in large part exist because of Western actions. I was writing about this before Gav cut us off.

Western intervention helped draw the focus of these militant groups to the West. We've used them, funded the prototype organisations and then created conditions to allow them to flourish. Yes, their aggression is based on a deep-seated historical issue between Sunni and Shia. But in terms of their expansion of terrorist attacks on western soil, that was in a large part a response to Western 'interventions'.

France was an early proponent of military action in Syria and has been caught up in several high profile bombing campaigns where civilians have been killed
Belgium has been flying missions in Iraq and Syria and has the largest per capita contribution of foreign fighters on the ground.
Germany is an obvious target because of its tolerance and acceptance of refugees. Disrupting that is key to spreading fear.

The links run deep.

Corbyn won't get any traction here though as he's going very much against the establishment. We're too invested in the region to change tack.

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:29 - May 26 with 4487 viewsfooters

And May urging NATO just yesterday to take further military action isn't a political point?

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on 11:30 - May 26 with 4475 views_

Well said Tim Farron on 11:26 - May 26 by Swansea_Blue

Except he's not saying it's our fault - "That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and held to account for their actions"

ISIS are in large part exist because of Western actions. I was writing about this before Gav cut us off.

Western intervention helped draw the focus of these militant groups to the West. We've used them, funded the prototype organisations and then created conditions to allow them to flourish. Yes, their aggression is based on a deep-seated historical issue between Sunni and Shia. But in terms of their expansion of terrorist attacks on western soil, that was in a large part a response to Western 'interventions'.

France was an early proponent of military action in Syria and has been caught up in several high profile bombing campaigns where civilians have been killed
Belgium has been flying missions in Iraq and Syria and has the largest per capita contribution of foreign fighters on the ground.
Germany is an obvious target because of its tolerance and acceptance of refugees. Disrupting that is key to spreading fear.

The links run deep.

Corbyn won't get any traction here though as he's going very much against the establishment. We're too invested in the region to change tack.


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Well said Tim Farron on 11:31 - May 26 with 4462 viewsSuperfrans

Well said Tim Farron on 11:26 - May 26 by Swansea_Blue

Except he's not saying it's our fault - "That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and held to account for their actions"

ISIS are in large part exist because of Western actions. I was writing about this before Gav cut us off.

Western intervention helped draw the focus of these militant groups to the West. We've used them, funded the prototype organisations and then created conditions to allow them to flourish. Yes, their aggression is based on a deep-seated historical issue between Sunni and Shia. But in terms of their expansion of terrorist attacks on western soil, that was in a large part a response to Western 'interventions'.

France was an early proponent of military action in Syria and has been caught up in several high profile bombing campaigns where civilians have been killed
Belgium has been flying missions in Iraq and Syria and has the largest per capita contribution of foreign fighters on the ground.
Germany is an obvious target because of its tolerance and acceptance of refugees. Disrupting that is key to spreading fear.

The links run deep.

Corbyn won't get any traction here though as he's going very much against the establishment. We're too invested in the region to change tack.


Back to my point above too. It's a tragedy that any discussion on this topic is closed down, as Farron is trying to, when we have zero chance of resolving it without engaging in the debate.

I recognise that Farron needs to win seats in an election, but he would have won a huge amount of credit had he not towed the Tory line that Corbyn is a raving radical on this and acknowledged the importance of debate and discussion of these issues if we are ever going to sort this out.

I must say, I doubt very much Corbyn's abilities to manage a team or lead a parliamentary party, let alone a Government - but he's winning me over with his policies.

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Well said Tim Farron on 11:34 - May 26 with 4433 viewsGlasgowBlue

Well said Tim Farron on 11:26 - May 26 by Swansea_Blue

Except he's not saying it's our fault - "That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and held to account for their actions"

ISIS are in large part exist because of Western actions. I was writing about this before Gav cut us off.

Western intervention helped draw the focus of these militant groups to the West. We've used them, funded the prototype organisations and then created conditions to allow them to flourish. Yes, their aggression is based on a deep-seated historical issue between Sunni and Shia. But in terms of their expansion of terrorist attacks on western soil, that was in a large part a response to Western 'interventions'.

France was an early proponent of military action in Syria and has been caught up in several high profile bombing campaigns where civilians have been killed
Belgium has been flying missions in Iraq and Syria and has the largest per capita contribution of foreign fighters on the ground.
Germany is an obvious target because of its tolerance and acceptance of refugees. Disrupting that is key to spreading fear.

The links run deep.

Corbyn won't get any traction here though as he's going very much against the establishment. We're too invested in the region to change tack.


Surely we should be talking about what our foreign policy is now, rather than what it was ten years ago. We have withdrawn our soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan. We have no boots on the ground in Syria.

The main Islamist force against which our armed forces are engaged in military action today is ISIS. Is Corbyn suggesting that we stop taking military action against them and allow them to expand across the middle east? Murdering, carrying out religious cleansing, floggings, rapes, stonings, the throwing of people from tall buildings, beheadings, crucifixions, burning people alive and the use of kids as suicide bombers.

Do we just walk away and say "not our problem"? Will the attacks stop then?

Of course they wont. Corbyn was trying to score cheap political points.

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