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This Cladding debacle 22:32 - Jun 25 with 6939 viewsVic

Is it still being blamed on the Government? Seems to have gone a bit quiet on that front the last couple of days.

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This Cladding debacle on 22:37 - Jun 25 with 5742 viewsvapour_trail


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This Cladding debacle on 22:49 - Jun 25 with 5720 viewsVic

This Cladding debacle on 22:37 - Jun 25 by vapour_trail



Yes! When the tragic fire occurred there were a lot of recriminations and fingers pointed at one particular political party. Now that many councils have been found to be using the same products I'm wondering if the same accusations are being made, as I haven't heard them.
[Post edited 25 Jun 2017 22:49]

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This Cladding debacle on 22:53 - Jun 25 with 5704 viewsStokieBlue

This Cladding debacle on 22:49 - Jun 25 by Vic

Yes! When the tragic fire occurred there were a lot of recriminations and fingers pointed at one particular political party. Now that many councils have been found to be using the same products I'm wondering if the same accusations are being made, as I haven't heard them.
[Post edited 25 Jun 2017 22:49]


The failings have been over many tenures (even Archer posted a video highlighting the issue back in 1984 and Labour have been in power 40% of the time since then).

There is plenty of blame to go around. Best we forget about the blaming for now and work on sorting out the issues.

If people want to point fingers it can be done once stuff is fixed.

SB

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This Cladding debacle on 22:58 - Jun 25 with 5686 viewsVic

This Cladding debacle on 22:53 - Jun 25 by StokieBlue

The failings have been over many tenures (even Archer posted a video highlighting the issue back in 1984 and Labour have been in power 40% of the time since then).

There is plenty of blame to go around. Best we forget about the blaming for now and work on sorting out the issues.

If people want to point fingers it can be done once stuff is fixed.

SB


Absolutely right. I don't want to point fingers - but just wanted to draw attention to the fact that whilst it was easy for people in the heat of the moment to make cheap political points , it never was as simple as some made out. Glad sense seems to be coming back a little.

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This Cladding debacle on 08:34 - Jun 26 with 5567 viewsNo9

According to the surveyor who was on the box over the week-en, Grenfell Tower as designed and built, 1974 could never have caught fire.

As you may have seen the governemnt looks like doing a U turn over the school where it sadi fire prevention could be relaxed to save money.
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This Cladding debacle on 08:36 - Jun 26 with 5556 viewsRadlett_blue

This Cladding debacle on 22:58 - Jun 25 by Vic

Absolutely right. I don't want to point fingers - but just wanted to draw attention to the fact that whilst it was easy for people in the heat of the moment to make cheap political points , it never was as simple as some made out. Glad sense seems to be coming back a little.


Although the Shadow Chancellor was perfectly happy to describe the Grenfell Tower victims yesterday as having been "murdered".

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This Cladding debacle on 08:56 - Jun 26 with 5521 viewsSwansea_Blue

This Cladding debacle on 22:58 - Jun 25 by Vic

Absolutely right. I don't want to point fingers - but just wanted to draw attention to the fact that whilst it was easy for people in the heat of the moment to make cheap political points , it never was as simple as some made out. Glad sense seems to be coming back a little.


There were lots of fingers pointed at the local council and the flat's management group, and rightly so as they've been warned it was a death trap in waiting for years. I don't remember the govt getting much stick, other than for May's typically disengaged and cool response.

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This Cladding debacle on 11:51 - Jun 26 with 5441 viewsNo9

This Cladding debacle on 08:36 - Jun 26 by Radlett_blue

Although the Shadow Chancellor was perfectly happy to describe the Grenfell Tower victims yesterday as having been "murdered".


Murder may be not but I understand the police are preparing to go with 'Manslaughter'
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This Cladding debacle on 12:14 - Jun 26 with 5415 viewstcblue

I disagree that the finger pointing (at least in terms of investigation and keeping it relevant in the public viewpoint) can't happen concurrent to resolving the issues of those who have been impacted. You don't need to forgo the strategic lookout because of a tactical problem if you have the amount of resources that we do in this country.

Ultimately, the welfare state should have been able to pick this up with barely a sweat, the fact that it hasn't asks all sorts of pertinent questions well outside of the true causes of the tragedy happening in the first place.

Outside of first responders and the actions of numerous residents, there's absolutely nothing to be commended about this preventable tragedy. That deserves to be kept prominently in the thoughts of the nation to ensure it can't happen again.
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This Cladding debacle on 12:51 - Jun 26 with 5361 viewsNo9

Ultimately the Government have responsibility to ensure that Building Reg's are fit for purpose, that includes fire protection.
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This Cladding debacle on 12:52 - Jun 26 with 5359 viewsStokieBlue

This Cladding debacle on 12:51 - Jun 26 by No9

Ultimately the Government have responsibility to ensure that Building Reg's are fit for purpose, that includes fire protection.


Which government?

SB

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This Cladding debacle on 13:28 - Jun 26 with 5312 viewsVic

This Cladding debacle on 12:51 - Jun 26 by No9

Ultimately the Government have responsibility to ensure that Building Reg's are fit for purpose, that includes fire protection.


That's more like it!

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This Cladding debacle on 08:59 - Jun 28 with 5181 viewsblue_oyster

It's gone very quiet. An estimated 800 people were in that tower, and according to the government, 90% of people survived.

Conventional wisdom is the enemy of thought.
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This Cladding debacle on 09:07 - Jun 28 with 5162 viewsNo9

This Cladding debacle on 12:52 - Jun 26 by StokieBlue

Which government?

SB


The government of the day of course.
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This Cladding debacle on 09:08 - Jun 28 with 5160 viewsNo9

This Cladding debacle on 08:59 - Jun 28 by blue_oyster

It's gone very quiet. An estimated 800 people were in that tower, and according to the government, 90% of people survived.


Where did that number come from?
If you are correct given the number of apartments they would have been VERY crowded would they not?
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This Cladding debacle on 09:12 - Jun 28 with 5140 viewsStokieBlue

This Cladding debacle on 09:07 - Jun 28 by No9

The government of the day of course.


This makes no sense. You're so desperate to bash the Tories you've stopped thinking critically.

In your scenario, why didn't Labour check every building in the UK to see if they met fire safety standards? Of course they assumed the previous government had done that correctly so they didn't.

You're essentially saying all buildings should be immediately checked at the start of each government, an absurd position.

SB
[Post edited 28 Jun 2017 9:26]

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This Cladding debacle on 09:13 - Jun 28 with 5137 viewsLord_Lucan

This Cladding debacle on 09:08 - Jun 28 by No9

Where did that number come from?
If you are correct given the number of apartments they would have been VERY crowded would they not?


I was under the impression that there were about 400 in there.

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This Cladding debacle on 09:32 - Jun 28 with 5094 viewsNo9

This Cladding debacle on 09:12 - Jun 28 by StokieBlue

This makes no sense. You're so desperate to bash the Tories you've stopped thinking critically.

In your scenario, why didn't Labour check every building in the UK to see if they met fire safety standards? Of course they assumed the previous government had done that correctly so they didn't.

You're essentially saying all buildings should be immediately checked at the start of each government, an absurd position.

SB
[Post edited 28 Jun 2017 9:26]


It is a complex scenario you are trying to (politically) oversimplify.
Building reg's change all the time for a number of reasons e.g new designs incorporate new materials which come to the market etc.
Real changes came in the 8-'s when Hesletine chucked the rule book out of the window & building control moved from the Planners to private organisations e.g. in the mid 80's I was not allowed to incorporate steels into a building to increase the span capability, by '91 all that had changed, I could put as much steel in as I liked & in the 70's the LA building inspector would come and inspect each stage of construction by the 90's you could get approval over the phone by just saying you had complied.It was a farce.
The real problem with the cladding is highlighted in Norwich where the Housing Association have a document signed off to say the cladding is top quality but on testing the government have condemned it & the 'private ' apartments with exactly the same spec material are not going to be tested???
As the Surveyor said on TV - none of this could have happened in the 70's.
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This Cladding debacle on 09:35 - Jun 28 with 5086 viewsStokieBlue

This Cladding debacle on 09:32 - Jun 28 by No9

It is a complex scenario you are trying to (politically) oversimplify.
Building reg's change all the time for a number of reasons e.g new designs incorporate new materials which come to the market etc.
Real changes came in the 8-'s when Hesletine chucked the rule book out of the window & building control moved from the Planners to private organisations e.g. in the mid 80's I was not allowed to incorporate steels into a building to increase the span capability, by '91 all that had changed, I could put as much steel in as I liked & in the 70's the LA building inspector would come and inspect each stage of construction by the 90's you could get approval over the phone by just saying you had complied.It was a farce.
The real problem with the cladding is highlighted in Norwich where the Housing Association have a document signed off to say the cladding is top quality but on testing the government have condemned it & the 'private ' apartments with exactly the same spec material are not going to be tested???
As the Surveyor said on TV - none of this could have happened in the 70's.


So, from your whole post, we can see that you actually don't believe it's the government of the time who are responsible.

So that makes your first sentence a little strange.

SB

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This Cladding debacle on 10:07 - Jun 28 with 5060 viewsm14_blue

This Cladding debacle on 09:13 - Jun 28 by Lord_Lucan

I was under the impression that there were about 400 in there.


I think there were around 120 flats?

If that's right then 800 is obviously miles off.
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This Cladding debacle on 11:45 - Jun 28 with 4991 viewsNo9

This Cladding debacle on 09:35 - Jun 28 by StokieBlue

So, from your whole post, we can see that you actually don't believe it's the government of the time who are responsible.

So that makes your first sentence a little strange.

SB


Sorry but I think you are trying hard not to understand
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This Cladding debacle on 11:50 - Jun 28 with 4987 viewsNo9

This Cladding debacle on 09:35 - Jun 28 by StokieBlue

So, from your whole post, we can see that you actually don't believe it's the government of the time who are responsible.

So that makes your first sentence a little strange.

SB


https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200128/building_control
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This Cladding debacle on 11:52 - Jun 28 with 4986 viewsLord_Lucan

This Cladding debacle on 09:32 - Jun 28 by No9

It is a complex scenario you are trying to (politically) oversimplify.
Building reg's change all the time for a number of reasons e.g new designs incorporate new materials which come to the market etc.
Real changes came in the 8-'s when Hesletine chucked the rule book out of the window & building control moved from the Planners to private organisations e.g. in the mid 80's I was not allowed to incorporate steels into a building to increase the span capability, by '91 all that had changed, I could put as much steel in as I liked & in the 70's the LA building inspector would come and inspect each stage of construction by the 90's you could get approval over the phone by just saying you had complied.It was a farce.
The real problem with the cladding is highlighted in Norwich where the Housing Association have a document signed off to say the cladding is top quality but on testing the government have condemned it & the 'private ' apartments with exactly the same spec material are not going to be tested???
As the Surveyor said on TV - none of this could have happened in the 70's.


All I know is that some years ago when I wanted to put a wall in to separate a shop and the stairs leading to a flat above I had to treat it as a new build and I had w4nkers from the council on my case for ages making sure I used the correct insulation.

I can't understand how these high rises got signed off - unless of course they met building controls at the time.

You can't blame whoever is in power right now for the buildings failings, who was in power when the dodgy cladding was erected and did it meet the necessary standards at that time? I don't know the answer to this but surely this is the way to look at it.

You can't blame DFS for a flammable sofa that was purchased before fire retardant restrictions were put in place.

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This Cladding debacle on 12:01 - Jun 28 with 4965 viewsStokieBlue

This Cladding debacle on 11:45 - Jun 28 by No9

Sorry but I think you are trying hard not to understand


I think you're trying to hard to blame the current government when the failings have stretched over multiple governments and parties.

SB

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This Cladding debacle on 12:06 - Jun 28 with 4948 viewsNo9

This Cladding debacle on 11:52 - Jun 28 by Lord_Lucan

All I know is that some years ago when I wanted to put a wall in to separate a shop and the stairs leading to a flat above I had to treat it as a new build and I had w4nkers from the council on my case for ages making sure I used the correct insulation.

I can't understand how these high rises got signed off - unless of course they met building controls at the time.

You can't blame whoever is in power right now for the buildings failings, who was in power when the dodgy cladding was erected and did it meet the necessary standards at that time? I don't know the answer to this but surely this is the way to look at it.

You can't blame DFS for a flammable sofa that was purchased before fire retardant restrictions were put in place.


The 'Governemnt of the day' picks' up responsibilities for what the previous governent did - UNLESS it changes the laws. - Differentiate between govnerment & political party-

Building Reg's are ongoing and are the responsibility of the governemnt in power - at the time- who have a duty & responsibility to see that whatever changes are made are safe etc.

The dodgy cladding may have passed the tests in place at the time but modified or more stringent tests may find things are not what the original tests showed. As wesee in Norwich the Housing Association materials passed the test but now don't - & worse the privately owned apparentment snext door will not be tested????

As the surveyor said, Grenfell tower as designed and built, in 1974 could not have been destroyed as it was.

In this case the critical date is 2013 because that is when the coroner made the pronouncement about sprinklers
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