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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time 12:27 - Jul 18 with 45603 viewsStokieBlue

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/18/austerity-cuts-life-expect

A truly stupid article.

SB

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:09 - Jul 18 with 5793 viewsFoD_Blue

Couldn't it be argued that the fact that people are generally living for longer is one of the reasons that austerity was needed in the first place?
As people live longer, more money has to be found for pensions. This money has to come from somewhere.
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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:10 - Jul 18 with 5786 viewsStokieBlue

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:49 - Jul 18 by Superfrans

He's not doing that. He's quite rightly using the BBC as evidence that the Guardian and Owen Jones aren't the only media source to flag the austerity angle.

The weird thing about this entire thread is that it's lambasting Owen Jones for making a political angle (as he would do, he's a political activist) out of a report - but no criticism of the person who has written the report, or the other media who have covered the story.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-07-18/warnings-as-increases-in-life-expectancy-stag
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/life-expectancy-uk-professor-sir-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/07/17/life-expectancy-stalls-britain-fir
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/live-blogs/gpnews-rise-in-uk-life-expectancy-pr
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 16:54]


Some of those articles don't even mention austerity and the first one he explicitly gives a quote saying he doesn't know if austerity even is a factor:

"I am deeply concerned that if we do not fund health care and social care adequately people will lead much worse lives," he said.

"Whether that translates into an increase in mortality or a failure of mortality to go down, I don't know."

So as per his report he hasn't blamed austerity there yet Jones said it was definitely the cause and pressed the point home.

Why would we criticise the person writing the report? As for the other media - none as far as I can tell have said it's all austerities fault like Jones. Jones hasn't said it's a factor, he's gone with it as the cause.

SB

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:20 - Jul 18 with 5771 viewsGlasgowBlue

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:50 - Jul 18 by Superfrans

Must be terrible to be so rattled by one political journalist.


You've been more rattled by Peter Hitchens and Katie Hopkins if memory serves.

Not that I disagree with you re Hopkins. But glass houses and all that.

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:23 - Jul 18 with 5761 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

If only it was just about austerity! As I posted a while back cancer Incidence rates in all age groups are increasing (probably due to the toxicity of our environment increasing), food is increasingly rubbish (diabetes rates) etc....austerity won't help any of this mind. Enjoy your pensions.....if you have one and manage to make it that far that is ! The nonsense about how we are all going to live longer is one of many societal lies that we happily lap up.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 17:32]

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:25 - Jul 18 with 5765 viewsSuperfrans

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:10 - Jul 18 by StokieBlue

Some of those articles don't even mention austerity and the first one he explicitly gives a quote saying he doesn't know if austerity even is a factor:

"I am deeply concerned that if we do not fund health care and social care adequately people will lead much worse lives," he said.

"Whether that translates into an increase in mortality or a failure of mortality to go down, I don't know."

So as per his report he hasn't blamed austerity there yet Jones said it was definitely the cause and pressed the point home.

Why would we criticise the person writing the report? As for the other media - none as far as I can tell have said it's all austerities fault like Jones. Jones hasn't said it's a factor, he's gone with it as the cause.

SB


The first one:
"He said he could not draw conclusions as to why rises in life expectancy have faltered but raised concerns about "miserly" health and social care spending."

They all mention austerity. You might want to look a bit closer.

Jones hasn't made it up, he's taken a point from a report and embellished it. It's a comment piece. What do you expect him to do?
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 17:27]

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:27 - Jul 18 with 5755 viewsSuperfrans

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:20 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue

You've been more rattled by Peter Hitchens and Katie Hopkins if memory serves.

Not that I disagree with you re Hopkins. But glass houses and all that.


Katie Hopkins is vermin. As you rightly know.

Anyway, I thought you div listed me.... ;-)
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 17:28]

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:30 - Jul 18 with 5749 viewsSuperfrans

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:23 - Jul 18 by BanksterDebtSlave

If only it was just about austerity! As I posted a while back cancer Incidence rates in all age groups are increasing (probably due to the toxicity of our environment increasing), food is increasingly rubbish (diabetes rates) etc....austerity won't help any of this mind. Enjoy your pensions.....if you have one and manage to make it that far that is ! The nonsense about how we are all going to live longer is one of many societal lies that we happily lap up.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 17:32]


Indeed.

Again, the issue here isn't about Owen Jones. It's about why we think its surprising that life expectancy should flatten out. It can't continue to increase, unless we end up living forever...

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 18:23 - Jul 18 with 5711 viewsGlasgowBlue

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:27 - Jul 18 by Superfrans

Katie Hopkins is vermin. As you rightly know.

Anyway, I thought you div listed me.... ;-)
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 17:28]


You were on my div list as long as I was on yours ;-)

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 18:48 - Jul 18 with 5698 viewsStokieBlue

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:25 - Jul 18 by Superfrans

The first one:
"He said he could not draw conclusions as to why rises in life expectancy have faltered but raised concerns about "miserly" health and social care spending."

They all mention austerity. You might want to look a bit closer.

Jones hasn't made it up, he's taken a point from a report and embellished it. It's a comment piece. What do you expect him to do?
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 17:27]


That's not saying austerity is a cause, that's his opinion and he actually said you couldn't use that as a conclusion.

You're never going to accept that he's done wrong so there is no point. You've broken your own argument with the links you've posted where the same scientist not saying what you are claiming.

You're delibeterately misrepresenting what Jones said. Comment piece or not i expect it to at least be factually correct, loads of posters have pointed out where is rubbish and yet you persist.

SB
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 18:50]

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 19:58 - Jul 18 with 5669 viewsSuperfrans

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 18:23 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue

You were on my div list as long as I was on yours ;-)


We're both as indecisive as each other I guess... ;-)
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 19:58]

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 20:01 - Jul 18 with 5660 viewsSuperfrans

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 18:48 - Jul 18 by StokieBlue

That's not saying austerity is a cause, that's his opinion and he actually said you couldn't use that as a conclusion.

You're never going to accept that he's done wrong so there is no point. You've broken your own argument with the links you've posted where the same scientist not saying what you are claiming.

You're delibeterately misrepresenting what Jones said. Comment piece or not i expect it to at least be factually correct, loads of posters have pointed out where is rubbish and yet you persist.

SB
[Post edited 18 Jul 2017 18:50]


Really? You don't think low spending on social care and health has anything to do with austerity.

Funny thing is, I've criticised Jones on here. But it's a comment piece, accompanied by a factual news piece in the Guardian. It is what it is.

He's a passionate activist who doesn't talk about people like vermin. I don't have a problem with him. He really does get to some of you righties though, clearly.

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 21:06 - Jul 18 with 5624 viewsgordon

It's not a very good article, accepted, but by far the biggest determinant of life expectancy is wealth. The relationship is likely to be very complex, but there's masses of evidence that shows that as people become wealthier their health outcomes and life expectancy improve. And so of course it follows that life expectancy is likely to be adversely affected if income/wealth stops improving.
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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 21:22 - Jul 18 with 5610 viewsDolly2.0

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:39 - Jul 18 by StokieBlue

Yet the 242 page report on which everything is based doesn't cite it as a factor and mentions it once.

The BBC of course, wanting a headline, ask him directly about austerity to which he replies.

Why do you hold the BBC article above the primary source which is the report.

SB


i haven't read the 242 page report, and I doubt you have either.

Call me old fashioned by I still trust the Beeb as largely impartial. I have time to read a news story (just about). I don't have time to read a 242 page report.

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 21:39 - Jul 18 with 5590 viewsDolly2.0

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 17:10 - Jul 18 by StokieBlue

Some of those articles don't even mention austerity and the first one he explicitly gives a quote saying he doesn't know if austerity even is a factor:

"I am deeply concerned that if we do not fund health care and social care adequately people will lead much worse lives," he said.

"Whether that translates into an increase in mortality or a failure of mortality to go down, I don't know."

So as per his report he hasn't blamed austerity there yet Jones said it was definitely the cause and pressed the point home.

Why would we criticise the person writing the report? As for the other media - none as far as I can tell have said it's all austerities fault like Jones. Jones hasn't said it's a factor, he's gone with it as the cause.

SB


You're actually bare-faced lying now!

"University College London expert Sir Michael Marmot said he was "deeply concerned" by the situation, calling it "historically highly unusual".
He said it was "entirely possible" austerity was to blame and said the issue needed looking at urgently."

Owen Jones didn't write that. It's a direct quote from Sir Michael Marmot.

AND IT'S IN THE ARTICLE *YOU* LINKED TO!!!
(i.e. the one that had literally nothing to do with Owen Jones).

Your blind hatred of Owen Jones seems to have made you have a funny turn.

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:00 - Jul 18 with 5575 viewscaught-in-limbo

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 21:22 - Jul 18 by Dolly2.0

i haven't read the 242 page report, and I doubt you have either.

Call me old fashioned by I still trust the Beeb as largely impartial. I have time to read a news story (just about). I don't have time to read a 242 page report.


"Call me old fashioned by I still trust the Beeb as largely impartial."

As long as you only just have enough time to read news stories from the UK corporate press and the BBC, you will always hold that opinion.

#toxic
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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:12 - Jul 18 with 5552 viewsDolly2.0

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:00 - Jul 18 by caught-in-limbo

"Call me old fashioned by I still trust the Beeb as largely impartial."

As long as you only just have enough time to read news stories from the UK corporate press and the BBC, you will always hold that opinion.


I'll hold that opinion because it's largely true.

Feel free to post a Beeb article that's clearly biased to either the Tories or Labour.

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:31 - Jul 18 with 5539 viewscaught-in-limbo

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:12 - Jul 18 by Dolly2.0

I'll hold that opinion because it's largely true.

Feel free to post a Beeb article that's clearly biased to either the Tories or Labour.


I didn't realise you were talking about domestic party politics.

The BBC is the propaganda vehicle for the establishment.* It is inherently biased in that respect.

*I don't mind which definition of establishment you use (as cited by Owen Jones here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/26/the-establishment-uncovered-how-

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:35 - Jul 18 with 5538 viewsStokieBlue

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 21:39 - Jul 18 by Dolly2.0

You're actually bare-faced lying now!

"University College London expert Sir Michael Marmot said he was "deeply concerned" by the situation, calling it "historically highly unusual".
He said it was "entirely possible" austerity was to blame and said the issue needed looking at urgently."

Owen Jones didn't write that. It's a direct quote from Sir Michael Marmot.

AND IT'S IN THE ARTICLE *YOU* LINKED TO!!!
(i.e. the one that had literally nothing to do with Owen Jones).

Your blind hatred of Owen Jones seems to have made you have a funny turn.


We've been over this, you really don't read what people post. Since you only read what you want to read let's do it one last time before I give up.

"Entirely possible" is a very, very long way from what Owen Jones wrote and you know it. Please stop being hugely disingenuous.

How is "entirely possible" in any way equatable to:

"Now we find out the real cost of austerity — our lives cut short"
"Cuts have almost certainly halted a rise in life expectancy"
"An ideologically driven programme of cuts is almost certainly robbing us of life"
"Consistently rising life expectancy should be something we all take for granted"
"But we are still talking about the robbing of life."

It's not equatable before you start. He's took a vague comment which was pressed from someone by the BBC (it's not even in his published 224 page report but you seem to want to ignore that fact) and twisted it every which way from Sunday.

You've also ignored that the expectancy went down under Labour for 4 years and that it's going down in most western countries including Germany which has no austerity.

You've even ignored our very own TWTD actuary.

You cherry pick nearly as much as Owen Jones.

SB

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:41 - Jul 18 with 5522 viewscaught-in-limbo

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:12 - Jul 18 by Dolly2.0

I'll hold that opinion because it's largely true.

Feel free to post a Beeb article that's clearly biased to either the Tories or Labour.


The study mentioned in this article finds the BBC biased against Jeremy Corbyn. But in my view that's not because he is Labour, but because his policies don't offer much to the establishment.

As a Corbyn fan, I thought you knew this.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-p

#toxic
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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:47 - Jul 18 with 5512 viewscaught-in-limbo

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:41 - Jul 18 by caught-in-limbo

The study mentioned in this article finds the BBC biased against Jeremy Corbyn. But in my view that's not because he is Labour, but because his policies don't offer much to the establishment.

As a Corbyn fan, I thought you knew this.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-p


Here's another:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jan/18/bbc-trust-says-laura-kuenssberg-re

#toxic
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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 23:52 - Jul 18 with 5475 viewsDolly2.0

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:35 - Jul 18 by StokieBlue

We've been over this, you really don't read what people post. Since you only read what you want to read let's do it one last time before I give up.

"Entirely possible" is a very, very long way from what Owen Jones wrote and you know it. Please stop being hugely disingenuous.

How is "entirely possible" in any way equatable to:

"Now we find out the real cost of austerity — our lives cut short"
"Cuts have almost certainly halted a rise in life expectancy"
"An ideologically driven programme of cuts is almost certainly robbing us of life"
"Consistently rising life expectancy should be something we all take for granted"
"But we are still talking about the robbing of life."

It's not equatable before you start. He's took a vague comment which was pressed from someone by the BBC (it's not even in his published 224 page report but you seem to want to ignore that fact) and twisted it every which way from Sunday.

You've also ignored that the expectancy went down under Labour for 4 years and that it's going down in most western countries including Germany which has no austerity.

You've even ignored our very own TWTD actuary.

You cherry pick nearly as much as Owen Jones.

SB


I do read what people post and you are twisting like a very twisty thing.

You posted "he (Sir Michael Marmot) hasn't blamed austerity".

But, quoting from your article:

"He said it was "entirely possible" austerity was to blame and said the issue needed looking at urgently."

It doesn't matter whether he said it in his report or said it to the press - he said it!!

I have NOT ignored your Labour or Germany points. I've answered both above. Fair enough if you can't be bothered to read them, or didn't like the answer, but please don't lie and say I ignored them. They are there for all to see.

I rest my case frankly, because I'm getting bored of this.


EDIT: I've ignored the actuary for two reasons. Firstly, he's just some bloke on a football messageboard. I don't know his credentials. Sir Michael Marmot has said it is entirely possible austerity is to blame, which is at odds with our actuary. So do I believe the bloke I don't know on a football messagboard, or the guy that compiled the report and is quoted on the BBC?

Secondly, his last line gives him away somewhat: "this man is ignorant of facts much like many of the other Guardian contributors." He clearly has some agenda against the Guardian. And what of the BBC's facts?
[Post edited 19 Jul 2017 0:00]

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 00:04 - Jul 19 with 5460 viewsDolly2.0

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:35 - Jul 18 by StokieBlue

We've been over this, you really don't read what people post. Since you only read what you want to read let's do it one last time before I give up.

"Entirely possible" is a very, very long way from what Owen Jones wrote and you know it. Please stop being hugely disingenuous.

How is "entirely possible" in any way equatable to:

"Now we find out the real cost of austerity — our lives cut short"
"Cuts have almost certainly halted a rise in life expectancy"
"An ideologically driven programme of cuts is almost certainly robbing us of life"
"Consistently rising life expectancy should be something we all take for granted"
"But we are still talking about the robbing of life."

It's not equatable before you start. He's took a vague comment which was pressed from someone by the BBC (it's not even in his published 224 page report but you seem to want to ignore that fact) and twisted it every which way from Sunday.

You've also ignored that the expectancy went down under Labour for 4 years and that it's going down in most western countries including Germany which has no austerity.

You've even ignored our very own TWTD actuary.

You cherry pick nearly as much as Owen Jones.

SB


Talking of ignoring things - you have actually ignored something (I haven't).

I asked if you'd read the report that you're so hung up on.

Have you?

Poll: Be honest, how many times have you played the clip of Noel Hunt's goal?

0
Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 06:55 - Jul 19 with 5383 viewsStokieBlue

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 23:52 - Jul 18 by Dolly2.0

I do read what people post and you are twisting like a very twisty thing.

You posted "he (Sir Michael Marmot) hasn't blamed austerity".

But, quoting from your article:

"He said it was "entirely possible" austerity was to blame and said the issue needed looking at urgently."

It doesn't matter whether he said it in his report or said it to the press - he said it!!

I have NOT ignored your Labour or Germany points. I've answered both above. Fair enough if you can't be bothered to read them, or didn't like the answer, but please don't lie and say I ignored them. They are there for all to see.

I rest my case frankly, because I'm getting bored of this.


EDIT: I've ignored the actuary for two reasons. Firstly, he's just some bloke on a football messageboard. I don't know his credentials. Sir Michael Marmot has said it is entirely possible austerity is to blame, which is at odds with our actuary. So do I believe the bloke I don't know on a football messagboard, or the guy that compiled the report and is quoted on the BBC?

Secondly, his last line gives him away somewhat: "this man is ignorant of facts much like many of the other Guardian contributors." He clearly has some agenda against the Guardian. And what of the BBC's facts?
[Post edited 19 Jul 2017 0:00]


You rest your case? Incredible arrogance.

That would all be lovely if your premise was correct but "entirely possible" is not saying something is the cause which is what Jones is doing (not just once, he said austerity is robbing people of life amongst other ridiculous comments). You really can't see the difference?

It's entirely possible that you misunderstand the posts on purpose. That's not the same as saying you do it on purpose.

One quote on a interview where he is asked an exact question doesn't supersede all the other stuff the same person has done or the data posted in this thread by others. You'd say GB was swerving if he posted like you have. You're saying people can from now on, just pick the one quote they like and ignore everything else.

You'll be the first to complain when they do.

Guess we won't agree so I'll leave it there.

SB
[Post edited 19 Jul 2017 7:26]

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 07:04 - Jul 19 with 5378 viewsStokieBlue

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 00:04 - Jul 19 by Dolly2.0

Talking of ignoring things - you have actually ignored something (I haven't).

I asked if you'd read the report that you're so hung up on.

Have you?


Why do I need to read it?

It mentions austerity once and not as a cause. It's been summarised.

Did you read the whole labour manifesto and the costings document you so relentlessly supported or did you go by all the summaries and just believe the costings as Labour said they were correct?

SB
[Post edited 19 Jul 2017 7:25]

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Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 08:48 - Jul 19 with 5340 viewseireblue

Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 07:04 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue

Why do I need to read it?

It mentions austerity once and not as a cause. It's been summarised.

Did you read the whole labour manifesto and the costings document you so relentlessly supported or did you go by all the summaries and just believe the costings as Labour said they were correct?

SB
[Post edited 19 Jul 2017 7:25]


Probably a good idea to read it. Some of what Owen Jones was writing about in his opinion may have been formed from the report.

The robbing lives opinion comment in the article may be from

Reducing health inequalities is a matter
of fairness and social justice. In England,
the many people who are currently dying
prematurely each year as a result of health
inequalities would otherwise have enjoyed,
in total, between 1.3 and 2.5 million extra
years of life.


I think ElderG has somewhat mis-represented the quote on "Austerity"

This report is published in an adverse economic
climate. We join our voice to those who say that a crisis
is an opportunity: it is a time to plan to do things
differently. Austerity need not lead to retrenchment
in the welfare state. Indeed, the opposite may be necessary:
the welfare state in England, the NHS itself,
was born in the most austere post-war conditions.
This required both courage and imagination. Today
we call for courage and imagination again, to ensure
equal health and well-being for future generations.


The headline is not really representative.
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