| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 08:59 - Jul 19 with 5675 views | gordon |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 08:48 - Jul 19 by eireblue |
Probably a good idea to read it. Some of what Owen Jones was writing about in his opinion may have been formed from the report.
The robbing lives opinion comment in the article may be from
Reducing health inequalities is a matter
of fairness and social justice. In England,
the many people who are currently dying
prematurely each year as a result of health
inequalities would otherwise have enjoyed,
in total, between 1.3 and 2.5 million extra
years of life.
I think ElderG has somewhat mis-represented the quote on "Austerity"
This report is published in an adverse economic
climate. We join our voice to those who say that a crisis
is an opportunity: it is a time to plan to do things
differently. Austerity need not lead to retrenchment
in the welfare state. Indeed, the opposite may be necessary:
the welfare state in England, the NHS itself,
was born in the most austere post-war conditions.
This required both courage and imagination. Today
we call for courage and imagination again, to ensure
equal health and well-being for future generations.
The headline is not really representative. |
Agreed. That male life expectancy can vary by almost 30 years between different parts of the UK caused by relative wealth/poverty is pretty scandalous. |  | |  |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 09:01 - Jul 19 with 5669 views | No9 |
He is only saying what a number of other agencies have said isn't he?
Even the governemtn agencies have admitted that the quality of life is critical to out life expectancy and it depends where you live in the UK & in what social class, as to how long your life expectancy is?
Low wages - poor quality food = shorter life. That is no secret is it? |  | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 09:17 - Jul 19 with 5644 views | StokieBlue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 08:48 - Jul 19 by eireblue |
Probably a good idea to read it. Some of what Owen Jones was writing about in his opinion may have been formed from the report.
The robbing lives opinion comment in the article may be from
Reducing health inequalities is a matter
of fairness and social justice. In England,
the many people who are currently dying
prematurely each year as a result of health
inequalities would otherwise have enjoyed,
in total, between 1.3 and 2.5 million extra
years of life.
I think ElderG has somewhat mis-represented the quote on "Austerity"
This report is published in an adverse economic
climate. We join our voice to those who say that a crisis
is an opportunity: it is a time to plan to do things
differently. Austerity need not lead to retrenchment
in the welfare state. Indeed, the opposite may be necessary:
the welfare state in England, the NHS itself,
was born in the most austere post-war conditions.
This required both courage and imagination. Today
we call for courage and imagination again, to ensure
equal health and well-being for future generations.
The headline is not really representative. |
I wouldn't equate health inequality directly to austerity - there are many factors that could drive health inequality although austerity could certainly be one of them. To single it out does just suit certain agendas though.
If it's solely based on austerity why did it decrease under Labour between 2004 and 2008 and why is it decreasing in other western countries like Germany?
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 09:21 - Jul 19 with 5640 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 09:01 - Jul 19 by No9 |
He is only saying what a number of other agencies have said isn't he?
Even the governemtn agencies have admitted that the quality of life is critical to out life expectancy and it depends where you live in the UK & in what social class, as to how long your life expectancy is?
Low wages - poor quality food = shorter life. That is no secret is it? |
I don't agree that low wages causes poor food quality.
Poor education and believing adverts on the tele are the main causes of an unhealthy diet. [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 9:26]
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 10:22 - Jul 19 with 5609 views | No9 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 09:17 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
I wouldn't equate health inequality directly to austerity - there are many factors that could drive health inequality although austerity could certainly be one of them. To single it out does just suit certain agendas though.
If it's solely based on austerity why did it decrease under Labour between 2004 and 2008 and why is it decreasing in other western countries like Germany?
SB |
Hasn't Germany (along with some other EU countries) taken steps to eliminate substances known to be harmful from the food chain?
Substances from America such as - Fructose & hydrogenated oils, growth promoters, disinfections (chlorination) of foodstuffs as examples all allowed here in the interests of keepoing food prices partly affordable.
labour introduced the Food Standards Agency in an attempt to keep substandrd food out of retail outlets but the failure to proper;y fund this since 2010 means you take pot luck and can be very sick an example of this being pine nuts imported from China | | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 11:14 - Jul 19 with 5586 views | eireblue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 09:17 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
I wouldn't equate health inequality directly to austerity - there are many factors that could drive health inequality although austerity could certainly be one of them. To single it out does just suit certain agendas though.
If it's solely based on austerity why did it decrease under Labour between 2004 and 2008 and why is it decreasing in other western countries like Germany?
SB |
Well I am not advocating a position that suggests austerity is a sole cause.
As suggested above, some of the stuff in the report probably should give pause for thought.
And maybe, the way to address some of the issues raised, will have to be stuff that is executed as a result of government policy.
In which case it will be interesting to see what recommendations are followed, and which are not. And in the latter case if austerity is the reason, then that would be interesting. Since that is the point made, austerity should not be an excuse for ignoring/not doing things related to improving the health of the nation. |  | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:30 - Jul 19 with 5576 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 06:55 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
You rest your case? Incredible arrogance.
That would all be lovely if your premise was correct but "entirely possible" is not saying something is the cause which is what Jones is doing (not just once, he said austerity is robbing people of life amongst other ridiculous comments). You really can't see the difference?
It's entirely possible that you misunderstand the posts on purpose. That's not the same as saying you do it on purpose.
One quote on a interview where he is asked an exact question doesn't supersede all the other stuff the same person has done or the data posted in this thread by others. You'd say GB was swerving if he posted like you have. You're saying people can from now on, just pick the one quote they like and ignore everything else.
You'll be the first to complain when they do.
Guess we won't agree so I'll leave it there.
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 7:26]
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You're arguing semantics. "It's entirely possible and needs looking at urgently" is pretty damning whichever way you try to spin it. |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:35 - Jul 19 with 5564 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 07:04 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
Why do I need to read it?
It mentions austerity once and not as a cause. It's been summarised.
Did you read the whole labour manifesto and the costings document you so relentlessly supported or did you go by all the summaries and just believe the costings as Labour said they were correct?
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 7:25]
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Hahaha. So you're banging on about this amazing 242 page report that is more important than what's reported by the BBC or what the fella has actually said... and you haven't even read it.
Brilliant.
So if you haven't read it how do you know austerity is mentioned once? Or do you mean it's only mentioned once in the summaries? And who wrote the summaries? | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:37 - Jul 19 with 5556 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 08:48 - Jul 19 by eireblue |
Probably a good idea to read it. Some of what Owen Jones was writing about in his opinion may have been formed from the report.
The robbing lives opinion comment in the article may be from
Reducing health inequalities is a matter
of fairness and social justice. In England,
the many people who are currently dying
prematurely each year as a result of health
inequalities would otherwise have enjoyed,
in total, between 1.3 and 2.5 million extra
years of life.
I think ElderG has somewhat mis-represented the quote on "Austerity"
This report is published in an adverse economic
climate. We join our voice to those who say that a crisis
is an opportunity: it is a time to plan to do things
differently. Austerity need not lead to retrenchment
in the welfare state. Indeed, the opposite may be necessary:
the welfare state in England, the NHS itself,
was born in the most austere post-war conditions.
This required both courage and imagination. Today
we call for courage and imagination again, to ensure
equal health and well-being for future generations.
The headline is not really representative. |
So you're saying StokieBlue should have actually read the article he's banging on about so much?
Who'd have thunk it?! | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:38 - Jul 19 with 5546 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 09:17 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
I wouldn't equate health inequality directly to austerity - there are many factors that could drive health inequality although austerity could certainly be one of them. To single it out does just suit certain agendas though.
If it's solely based on austerity why did it decrease under Labour between 2004 and 2008 and why is it decreasing in other western countries like Germany?
SB |
Where did "solely" come from? You're getting desperate now. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:50 - Jul 19 with 5527 views | StokieBlue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:35 - Jul 19 by Dolly2.0 |
Hahaha. So you're banging on about this amazing 242 page report that is more important than what's reported by the BBC or what the fella has actually said... and you haven't even read it.
Brilliant.
So if you haven't read it how do you know austerity is mentioned once? Or do you mean it's only mentioned once in the summaries? And who wrote the summaries? |
Because I trust what I've read elsewhere.
Swerve again - did you read the Labour manifesto and costings? You debated endlessly about them so you must have read them right otherwise you'd be hugely hypocritical. You accuse GB of swerving but you are just as guilty.
You wouldn't even admit they weren't costed after being repeatedly shown that costings by the people doing them mean nothing. Instead you left the debate rather than accept that.
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 12:56]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:50 - Jul 19 with 5521 views | StokieBlue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:30 - Jul 19 by Dolly2.0 |
You're arguing semantics. "It's entirely possible and needs looking at urgently" is pretty damning whichever way you try to spin it. |
You're also arguing semantics, however you are doing it from a very strange angle.
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 12:55]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:51 - Jul 19 with 5514 views | StokieBlue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:38 - Jul 19 by Dolly2.0 |
Where did "solely" come from? You're getting desperate now. |
I can only assume from this post that you didn't read Owen's article because it's clear from the entire thing he laid the blame solely at austerity - it's even in the headline.
Once again ignored the fact it came down under Labour? How is this possible if austerity is the root cause. No austerity in Germany. Clearly the causes are many and varied but Jones and it seems you want to focus on one.
It's utterly pointless, you latch onto one perceived fact and then you ignore everything else. You do it in every debate until you've ground the debate into the ground. It's the way nowadays it seems. Enjoy your future debates.
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 13:06]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 13:07 - Jul 19 with 5484 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:50 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
Because I trust what I've read elsewhere.
Swerve again - did you read the Labour manifesto and costings? You debated endlessly about them so you must have read them right otherwise you'd be hugely hypocritical. You accuse GB of swerving but you are just as guilty.
You wouldn't even admit they weren't costed after being repeatedly shown that costings by the people doing them mean nothing. Instead you left the debate rather than accept that.
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 12:56]
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"Because I trust what I've read elsewhere."
I actually give up now. I've said all I need to say. You are a busted flush. You're banging on about the intricacies of a report you haven't even read because you simply trust what you read elsewhere. You haven't answered if it's the summaries that only mention austerity once - or maybe someone else (who has read the report) says it was mentioned once. Whatever.
Why are you banging on about the Labour manifesto now? Whataboutery and totally irrelevant. I didn't claim a specific thing was mentioned a specific number of times in the Lab manifesto. That's the difference.
I've not swerved anything. You, on the other hand, are getting increasingly desperate. Now claiming we're saying it's "solely" austerity (no-one has said it's solely austerity, not even Owen Jones) and you're also resorting to whataboutery - attacking me on something nothing to do with this thread.
I'd stop digging if I were you. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 13:10 - Jul 19 with 5480 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:50 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
You're also arguing semantics, however you are doing it from a very strange angle.
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 12:55]
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You need to look in the mirror.
I didn't bring the topic up, remember. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 13:18 - Jul 19 with 5470 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:51 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
I can only assume from this post that you didn't read Owen's article because it's clear from the entire thing he laid the blame solely at austerity - it's even in the headline.
Once again ignored the fact it came down under Labour? How is this possible if austerity is the root cause. No austerity in Germany. Clearly the causes are many and varied but Jones and it seems you want to focus on one.
It's utterly pointless, you latch onto one perceived fact and then you ignore everything else. You do it in every debate until you've ground the debate into the ground. It's the way nowadays it seems. Enjoy your future debates.
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 13:06]
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"he laid the blame solely at austerity - it's even in the headline."
This is the headline:
"Now we find out the real cost of austerity — our lives cut short"
Where does it say "solely"?
I have answered on Germany and Labour. I told you last time you said I ignored them and you're still saying it. Read the thread.
It's pointless debating with you because you're not very good at it at best... you lie, misrepresent, forget, indulge in whatabouterry and just plain get things wrong at worst.
I've shown you up time and again in this thread alone. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 13:26 - Jul 19 with 5456 views | StokieBlue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 13:18 - Jul 19 by Dolly2.0 |
"he laid the blame solely at austerity - it's even in the headline."
This is the headline:
"Now we find out the real cost of austerity — our lives cut short"
Where does it say "solely"?
I have answered on Germany and Labour. I told you last time you said I ignored them and you're still saying it. Read the thread.
It's pointless debating with you because you're not very good at it at best... you lie, misrepresent, forget, indulge in whatabouterry and just plain get things wrong at worst.
I've shown you up time and again in this thread alone. |
Being called a bad debater by you is hardly a huge insult so no real point responding.
Yes, you've shown me up hugely. You don't do anything of the things you've posted.
You win, you're right.
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 13:28]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 13:53 - Jul 19 with 5426 views | WeWereZombies |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:02 - Jul 18 by Desmond |
Hasn't the NHS just been voted the best health care system in the world Brother? |
I think you are referring to the recent report by a group of American healthcare experts, which was an assessment rather than a vote. They assessed the system as the best in the world but the delivery and quality of treatment did not get a universal thumbs up (I am however very grateful to the Audiology people in the Scottish NHS for a top notch consultation yesterday, just a shame that the rationing that seems to be getting worse meant that I had to wait almost nine months for the appointment). |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 13:54 - Jul 19 with 5426 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 13:26 - Jul 19 by StokieBlue |
Being called a bad debater by you is hardly a huge insult so no real point responding.
Yes, you've shown me up hugely. You don't do anything of the things you've posted.
You win, you're right.
SB [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 13:28]
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So you've down arrowed me yet again, posted this 'nothingness' and not answered a single point.
Not even the one where the headline doesn't say anything about slowing life expectancy being "solely" about austerity.
That's actually what a swerve is, right there.
QED. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:16 - Jul 19 with 5404 views | No9 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 09:21 - Jul 19 by caught-in-limbo |
I don't agree that low wages causes poor food quality.
Poor education and believing adverts on the tele are the main causes of an unhealthy diet. [Post edited 19 Jul 2017 9:26]
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I agree that poor education and advertising have to take some of the blame but low wages do limit what people can do to avoid crap food.
Poor food quality generally comes from low quality production methods and substandard quality control and inspection techniques. | | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:50 - Jul 19 with 5382 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:16 - Jul 19 by No9 |
I agree that poor education and advertising have to take some of the blame but low wages do limit what people can do to avoid crap food.
Poor food quality generally comes from low quality production methods and substandard quality control and inspection techniques. |
I know I'm biased here, but it's a fallacy to blame advertising for poor eating habits. I'm as exposed to advertising as anyone but I still eat healthily. So do my parents. Advertising is very very rarely about getting someone to do something they wouldn't normally do. It's more "you like this... well try my version".
If McDonalds stopped advertising their customers wouldn't suddenly start eating healthily.
I think there IS a link between bad eating habits and being poor, but a lot of it is down to ignorance. You can eat healthily on a budget.
I also think a lot of poor eating is down to laziness and/or lack of time. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:59 - Jul 19 with 5369 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:50 - Jul 19 by Dolly2.0 |
I know I'm biased here, but it's a fallacy to blame advertising for poor eating habits. I'm as exposed to advertising as anyone but I still eat healthily. So do my parents. Advertising is very very rarely about getting someone to do something they wouldn't normally do. It's more "you like this... well try my version".
If McDonalds stopped advertising their customers wouldn't suddenly start eating healthily.
I think there IS a link between bad eating habits and being poor, but a lot of it is down to ignorance. You can eat healthily on a budget.
I also think a lot of poor eating is down to laziness and/or lack of time. |
I see ASA are taking steps to ensure advertising does not confirm sex stereotypes which is ridiculous imo. Of course you are going to target cleaning products at women because they are the ones who, in the majority, still keep the home clean.
What is far more cynical is the unhealthy adverts which are aimed at kids. |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:17 - Jul 19 with 5297 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:59 - Jul 19 by GlasgowBlue |
I see ASA are taking steps to ensure advertising does not confirm sex stereotypes which is ridiculous imo. Of course you are going to target cleaning products at women because they are the ones who, in the majority, still keep the home clean.
What is far more cynical is the unhealthy adverts which are aimed at kids. |
Re your first point I tend to agree (amongst a certain age group). There's a lot more important things to worry about than sex stereotypes.
Which adverts were you thinking of for your second point? I can tell you none of the advertising we do is aimed at kids. The Haribo ads, for example, are aimed at mums (predominantly) and late teens/early twenties. We are also careful not to show over consumption. In fact Clearcast won't allow it (all TV advertising has to be OK'ed by Clearcast and they are usually very strict). | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:27 - Jul 19 with 5290 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:16 - Jul 19 by No9 |
I agree that poor education and advertising have to take some of the blame but low wages do limit what people can do to avoid crap food.
Poor food quality generally comes from low quality production methods and substandard quality control and inspection techniques. |
The healthiest food is fresh unprocessed stuff. People are less and less accustomed to making meals from raw ingredients.
The healthiest food preparation is when you do the added value at home - and you save a lot of money in the process.
Everything I eat I either grow myself or buy from a market.
I think the only thing I consume at home which I buy and is not a raw ingredient is wine and chocolate. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 08:41 - Jul 20 with 5248 views | No9 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 22:27 - Jul 19 by caught-in-limbo |
The healthiest food is fresh unprocessed stuff. People are less and less accustomed to making meals from raw ingredients.
The healthiest food preparation is when you do the added value at home - and you save a lot of money in the process.
Everything I eat I either grow myself or buy from a market.
I think the only thing I consume at home which I buy and is not a raw ingredient is wine and chocolate. |
I agree with you but & our family have much the same philosophy when it comes to eating but, take a look around modern housing. Those on low wages can only afford a living space with no garden. Often these people will work silly hours to make ends meet & when they finish work the markets are closed. Many will commute and find the only food outlet is that which has been built on or near the rail stations - typically M&S.
Lack of education means many people, unlike you, do not have the understanding of the damage processed foods can do to the body particularly children.
& governments can damage food by ignorance e.g. Ms Truss giving the OK to use dangerous chemicals means the residue of these are still in the cold pressed rape seed oils. | | | |
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