| The free market......a great thing, discuss. 08:27 - Sep 28 with 10169 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/27/theresa-may-to-champion-free-ma
Bringing you pollution, cancer, global ecocide, starvation, population growth, military industrial complex, war and inequality ? More ?
Essentially my main concern is that the market is based on producing 'wealth' while as humans we should strive for ends that should not be measured in the capacity to produce 'wealth' . Where is the incentive to discover the extent to which the market (modern living)is (or is not) killing us with cancers for example.
(N.B. Stokie.... I have placed question marks, but yes I am inclined to disagree with the thesis )
As for solutions well that would require a book but suffice to say I think we could come up with better! |  |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 08:32 - Sep 28 with 5983 views | homer_123 |
I'm not sure you can hang all that on the 'free market' though?
I'm pretty sure that some of the alternative approaches used have also ended up with systematic starvation, genocide, ecocide and war for example. These are not the result of free market more the result of human beings - or rather those human beings that strive for power and control.
That doesn't detract from the fact we could do way better. On that I agree. |  |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 08:46 - Sep 28 with 5957 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Serendipity and the same source give us this as well..
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/28/more-than-a-million-people-join
“I think the greatest issue of our time is the disparity of wealth and the problems that exist for the lower 40% of the population,” he said. “If you carve out that lower 40%, not only has there been no income growth, but death rates are rising because of opiate use, suicide, and because they’re losing jobs.
“This is the biggest issue of our time — the biggest economic issue, the biggest political issue, and the biggest social issue.” | |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:07 - Sep 28 with 5936 views | StokieBlue |
"Bringing you pollution, cancer, global ecocide, starvation, population growth, military industrial complex, war and inequality ? More ?"
All these things have been generated on a far worse scale by communist and socialist countries in the past. Why blame the free market for human woes when managed economies do the same on a far greater scale (USSR, China etc).
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:14 - Sep 28 with 5929 views | BOjK |
Which countries with reasonable levels of development and anything approaching a broadly free market have suffered from population starvation? |  |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:18 - Sep 28 with 5922 views | BergholtBru |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:07 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
"Bringing you pollution, cancer, global ecocide, starvation, population growth, military industrial complex, war and inequality ? More ?"
All these things have been generated on a far worse scale by communist and socialist countries in the past. Why blame the free market for human woes when managed economies do the same on a far greater scale (USSR, China etc).
SB |
Correct. Whatever type of government it`s all down to the people who run it in the end. |  |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:21 - Sep 28 with 5917 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:07 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
"Bringing you pollution, cancer, global ecocide, starvation, population growth, military industrial complex, war and inequality ? More ?"
All these things have been generated on a far worse scale by communist and socialist countries in the past. Why blame the free market for human woes when managed economies do the same on a far greater scale (USSR, China etc).
SB |
Stokie I even wrote you a special NB about the question marks ! I disagree that these are "human woes" though......more the result of allowing ourselves to be 'led' ! As a self governing collective I think we would settle for food, shelter and security at sustainable levels for the mutual benefit of all ! I do not think that it is part of the human condition to want more and more stuff designed to break and become obsolete and appear in an ocean near you soon !
Whataboutary at its finest ! | |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:28 - Sep 28 with 5907 views | BrianTablet |
Except the market is never totally 'free'.
If it were, we'd not have had bailouts for banks.
IMO, The market is always held in check within the parameters set by the respective government in power. With the Tories, it's usually as far as they can push it, but stay on the right side of indecent. With Labour, it's a more socially-centred set of parameters. |  |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:35 - Sep 28 with 5894 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:14 - Sep 28 by BOjK |
Which countries with reasonable levels of development and anything approaching a broadly free market have suffered from population starvation? |
I would argue that our 'development',and the model it is based on, has been the direct cause of population growth and starvation around the world . As an example it is suggested that having large families in 'developing' economies is a logical choice as it increases the likelihood of one of your sons (infanticide of girls !) 'making it' in the city and looking after you in old age. Much of the best land has been stolen by multinationals via colonialism to grow for example roses in Kenya, palm oil, sugar etc to satisfy 'the market'.
So it's a matter of joining the dots beyond your doorstep. The current immigration (economic) situation is the logical consequence of 'the market' and the wars that it's associated resource grabs encourage (asylum refugees). | |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:35 - Sep 28 with 5893 views | hampstead_blue |
I am with SB (again).
Socialism and Communism don't work. It's been proven. They are also the most corrupt of all governments.
I read somewhere once, 'power corrupts, absolute power, absolutely corrupts'.
As Keynes states that we are all utility maximisers, also read Richard Dawkins on the prime drivers of our species.
Politics cannot transcend the DNA and it's in-built drive to maximise our own utility and survive.
The only way to gently mute this and turn our heads to a more gentle lifestyle is through education and choice. Corbyn will make your choices for you and educate you to accept his way.
A 'free' (it can never be totally free) market is the best worst option. Light/moderate regulation gives us chance to expand and fulfil our inbuilt desires and education will help us to understand our impact and make choices.
Sorry but I truly believe that Corbyn is a step back in time.
I'm not a money grabber, my last business was a Social Enterprise and gave away 75% of profits. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:36 - Sep 28 with 5883 views | factual_blue |
Well, anything being championed by theresa may has been given the kiss of death. |  |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:38 - Sep 28 with 5881 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:18 - Sep 28 by BergholtBru |
Correct. Whatever type of government it`s all down to the people who run it in the end. |
"....... it`s all down to the people who run it in the end."
I think you may have nailed it dear boy ! | |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:42 - Sep 28 with 5872 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:28 - Sep 28 by BrianTablet |
Except the market is never totally 'free'.
If it were, we'd not have had bailouts for banks.
IMO, The market is always held in check within the parameters set by the respective government in power. With the Tories, it's usually as far as they can push it, but stay on the right side of indecent. With Labour, it's a more socially-centred set of parameters. |
Indeed, but overall these parameters always seem to favour the masters rather than the servants when all is said and done and essentially maintain the status quo. [Post edited 28 Sep 2017 9:42]
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:48 - Sep 28 with 5855 views | StokieBlue |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:21 - Sep 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Stokie I even wrote you a special NB about the question marks ! I disagree that these are "human woes" though......more the result of allowing ourselves to be 'led' ! As a self governing collective I think we would settle for food, shelter and security at sustainable levels for the mutual benefit of all ! I do not think that it is part of the human condition to want more and more stuff designed to break and become obsolete and appear in an ocean near you soon !
Whataboutary at its finest ! |
I'm not sure I agree.
Evolution has driven us in the past to be selfish and look after our family and ourselves in order to procreate the species. I am not entirely sure anything has changed, at a fundamental level we are animals looking to survive and ensure our family line.
I think we tell ourselves we have outgrown this but evidence would seem to indicate we haven't. Many people would do almost anything for their kids or family and the expense of other members of the species. This inherent selfishness also progresses to politics and markets. Socialism should work but it doesn't because people tend to get selfish and greedy and want more things for themselves and their families at the expense of the collective.
We are imperfect creatures and are likely to remain so for quite some time. The collective which you seek may be possible one day but evidence suggests it's not possible at the moment. Blaming the free market for this is wrong in my opinion.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:55 - Sep 28 with 5848 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:35 - Sep 28 by hampstead_blue |
I am with SB (again).
Socialism and Communism don't work. It's been proven. They are also the most corrupt of all governments.
I read somewhere once, 'power corrupts, absolute power, absolutely corrupts'.
As Keynes states that we are all utility maximisers, also read Richard Dawkins on the prime drivers of our species.
Politics cannot transcend the DNA and it's in-built drive to maximise our own utility and survive.
The only way to gently mute this and turn our heads to a more gentle lifestyle is through education and choice. Corbyn will make your choices for you and educate you to accept his way.
A 'free' (it can never be totally free) market is the best worst option. Light/moderate regulation gives us chance to expand and fulfil our inbuilt desires and education will help us to understand our impact and make choices.
Sorry but I truly believe that Corbyn is a step back in time.
I'm not a money grabber, my last business was a Social Enterprise and gave away 75% of profits. |
Personally I believe that the human condition is that we are empathic, social beings with a predisposition to mutual, harmonious co existence. Somewhere along the line we have allowed ourselves to be led by fools. (Some might say, men !)
If ever there was a time for new paradigms then it is now (rather than comparing old ones) so I am no fully fledged Corbynista!
Education has always been used as a tool for control. Why do you think most of us aren't taught economics and it is used as a preparation for the world of work rather than encouraging free and critical thinking ? | |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:02 - Sep 28 with 5835 views | homer_123 |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:55 - Sep 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Personally I believe that the human condition is that we are empathic, social beings with a predisposition to mutual, harmonious co existence. Somewhere along the line we have allowed ourselves to be led by fools. (Some might say, men !)
If ever there was a time for new paradigms then it is now (rather than comparing old ones) so I am no fully fledged Corbynista!
Education has always been used as a tool for control. Why do you think most of us aren't taught economics and it is used as a preparation for the world of work rather than encouraging free and critical thinking ? |
'Personally I believe that the human condition is that we are empathic, social beings with a predisposition to mutual, harmonious co existence. '
Yet, all of history and evidence suggests the complete opposite. | |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:07 - Sep 28 with 5822 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:48 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
I'm not sure I agree.
Evolution has driven us in the past to be selfish and look after our family and ourselves in order to procreate the species. I am not entirely sure anything has changed, at a fundamental level we are animals looking to survive and ensure our family line.
I think we tell ourselves we have outgrown this but evidence would seem to indicate we haven't. Many people would do almost anything for their kids or family and the expense of other members of the species. This inherent selfishness also progresses to politics and markets. Socialism should work but it doesn't because people tend to get selfish and greedy and want more things for themselves and their families at the expense of the collective.
We are imperfect creatures and are likely to remain so for quite some time. The collective which you seek may be possible one day but evidence suggests it's not possible at the moment. Blaming the free market for this is wrong in my opinion.
SB |
Nice post Stokie....! Two thoughts
1. Has the family unit always been part of the human condition ? (a genuine question)
2.Where socialism often falls flat on it's face is when the people allow leaders and elites to develop so this has to be designed out from the get-go.
(3.)This as a bonus, I would argue that the Internet provides the perfect tool to enable this global collective to take shape but unfortunately this noble goal has been distracted by pug-unicorns and cute puppy videos.....oh well, back to gardening then !! | |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:09 - Sep 28 with 5818 views | hampstead_blue |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 09:55 - Sep 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Personally I believe that the human condition is that we are empathic, social beings with a predisposition to mutual, harmonious co existence. Somewhere along the line we have allowed ourselves to be led by fools. (Some might say, men !)
If ever there was a time for new paradigms then it is now (rather than comparing old ones) so I am no fully fledged Corbynista!
Education has always been used as a tool for control. Why do you think most of us aren't taught economics and it is used as a preparation for the world of work rather than encouraging free and critical thinking ? |
You are spot-on with the problem of how education is delivered.
My youngest son is at a Church based school and is forced to sit through endless talks on some fictional hipster beardy bloke who got in trouble and was pinned to a cross.
I would like to think that the human condition is as you state. That would be lovely but we would become extinct over time.
I do feel that if we can lean toward your ideal version of the human condition then we can be happier. But to get to that point we need to unlock education and remove all politics.
Imagine a society governed by a rational set of thoughts and rules. Too good to be true.
In the meantime.....I blame Clegg and Keane. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:10 - Sep 28 with 5819 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:02 - Sep 28 by homer_123 |
'Personally I believe that the human condition is that we are empathic, social beings with a predisposition to mutual, harmonious co existence. '
Yet, all of history and evidence suggests the complete opposite. |
So when you look at yourself in the mirror does a war mongering sociopath stare back ?
Edit........ same question to you Stokie (as you gave it an uppie !) [Post edited 28 Sep 2017 10:12]
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:12 - Sep 28 with 5812 views | blue_oyster |
Indeed we should strive as humans to do good and not focus on wealth. Therefore you need to discuss how the lack of morals has caused these issues, not the 'market'. |  |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:14 - Sep 28 with 5797 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:09 - Sep 28 by hampstead_blue |
You are spot-on with the problem of how education is delivered.
My youngest son is at a Church based school and is forced to sit through endless talks on some fictional hipster beardy bloke who got in trouble and was pinned to a cross.
I would like to think that the human condition is as you state. That would be lovely but we would become extinct over time.
I do feel that if we can lean toward your ideal version of the human condition then we can be happier. But to get to that point we need to unlock education and remove all politics.
Imagine a society governed by a rational set of thoughts and rules. Too good to be true.
In the meantime.....I blame Clegg and Keane. |
Anarchy, peace and freedom my friend (well until the pitchforks anyway !)
"No Gods, no masters !" [Post edited 28 Sep 2017 10:19]
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:22 - Sep 28 with 5772 views | No9 |
There is no such thing as the 'Free Market', it is a great con trick. |  | | |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:22 - Sep 28 with 5774 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:12 - Sep 28 by blue_oyster |
Indeed we should strive as humans to do good and not focus on wealth. Therefore you need to discuss how the lack of morals has caused these issues, not the 'market'. |
Ah.......but I'm not a Bible basher. I blame the church for attempting to impose morals upon us. Church and state have always worked hand in glove ! | |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:29 - Sep 28 with 5763 views | No9 |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:12 - Sep 28 by blue_oyster |
Indeed we should strive as humans to do good and not focus on wealth. Therefore you need to discuss how the lack of morals has caused these issues, not the 'market'. |
But you understand there are no morals in the market?
Any 'market system' flaunts morals while climbing over the bloke next door. | | | |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:36 - Sep 28 with 5740 views | homer_123 |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:10 - Sep 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
So when you look at yourself in the mirror does a war mongering sociopath stare back ?
Edit........ same question to you Stokie (as you gave it an uppie !) [Post edited 28 Sep 2017 10:12]
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'So when you look at yourself in the mirror does a war mongering sociopath stare back ? '
Nope, but who would say yes to that question anyway?
How do you explain history and the evidence that, as a race, we are hardly peaceful? Was the free market in situ thousands of years ago? | |
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| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:37 - Sep 28 with 5740 views | blue_oyster |
| The free market......a great thing, discuss. on 10:29 - Sep 28 by No9 |
But you understand there are no morals in the market?
Any 'market system' flaunts morals while climbing over the bloke next door. |
Not so. A healthy market system enables a poor family to feed and clothe themselves with relative ease. | |
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