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Big ol' demo in Barcelona 21:41 - Oct 8 with 5686 viewsWeWereZombies

But no one is going off on one about it like they did last weekend, funny that.

Not that I am looking for excuses for Guardia Civil brutality and I don't think much of Rajoy but I am puzzled about the attitudes that immediately laid the blame for blocking Catalan independence voting on the EU:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41544849

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:13 - Oct 8 with 5642 viewsEireannach_gorm

If this is the true feelings of Catalonians , the Spanish government have seriously mismanaged the whole situation. Why suppress the vote, just allow the majority to have their say.
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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:13 - Oct 8 with 5642 viewsfactual_blue

FLA led rally, obviously. Smashing blokes, the lot of 'em.

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:18 - Oct 8 with 5642 viewsStokieBlue

How are they even remotely comparible?

The one today was a demonstration that the Catalan police allowed, the other was a vote which the Guardia Civil tried to stop and injured 900 people.

Nobody blamed the EU for blocking the vote, we were saying it was ridiculous they didn't condemn the violence. Totally different things as you know.

SB
[Post edited 8 Oct 2017 22:22]

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:41 - Oct 8 with 5596 viewsWeWereZombies

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:18 - Oct 8 by StokieBlue

How are they even remotely comparible?

The one today was a demonstration that the Catalan police allowed, the other was a vote which the Guardia Civil tried to stop and injured 900 people.

Nobody blamed the EU for blocking the vote, we were saying it was ridiculous they didn't condemn the violence. Totally different things as you know.

SB
[Post edited 8 Oct 2017 22:22]


They may not be comparable but they are connected.

Apparently a few hundred of the reported injuries were panic attacks, doesn't make the other Guardia Civil violence alright but the figures were being ramped up for effect, and anyone who has lived in Spain knows that the authorities are well...authoritarian, it was not an unexpected reaction to a vote that was outside of the constitution.

No, for some reason sections of the UK media were playing a card that wasn't in the pack before the cellophane was broken.

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:45 - Oct 8 with 5588 viewsHARRY10

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:18 - Oct 8 by StokieBlue

How are they even remotely comparible?

The one today was a demonstration that the Catalan police allowed, the other was a vote which the Guardia Civil tried to stop and injured 900 people.

Nobody blamed the EU for blocking the vote, we were saying it was ridiculous they didn't condemn the violence. Totally different things as you know.

SB
[Post edited 8 Oct 2017 22:22]


Whereas the endless bleat of the brexiteers are that the EU is too political.

Without a Parliamentary debate followed by a vote hpow on earth can 27/28 countries be expected to voice an opinion.

The reality is that brexiteers are looking for any excuse to attack the EU, however stupid their agument is.
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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:52 - Oct 8 with 5582 viewsStokieBlue

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:45 - Oct 8 by HARRY10

Whereas the endless bleat of the brexiteers are that the EU is too political.

Without a Parliamentary debate followed by a vote hpow on earth can 27/28 countries be expected to voice an opinion.

The reality is that brexiteers are looking for any excuse to attack the EU, however stupid their agument is.


You don't think the EU can make a statement condemning violence on civilians within a member country without a 4 day debate?

I'm not sure you're helping the remain case there and I'm a remainer. Not every criticism of the EU means you are a rabid brexiteer - you do understand that right?

They have a president for a reason, a statement condemning the violence should and could have been made. Your scenario would imply that some members states wouldn't condemn the violence on civilians and would be against the statement.

SB
[Post edited 8 Oct 2017 22:53]

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 23:18 - Oct 8 with 5551 viewsHARRY10

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:52 - Oct 8 by StokieBlue

You don't think the EU can make a statement condemning violence on civilians within a member country without a 4 day debate?

I'm not sure you're helping the remain case there and I'm a remainer. Not every criticism of the EU means you are a rabid brexiteer - you do understand that right?

They have a president for a reason, a statement condemning the violence should and could have been made. Your scenario would imply that some members states wouldn't condemn the violence on civilians and would be against the statement.

SB
[Post edited 8 Oct 2017 22:53]


I never said anything about a 4 day debate

I never stared that "every criticism of the EU means you are a rabid brexiteer "

"They" have a president. Given that the UK is part of the EU why are you talking about they ?

At what level should the EU president comment on violence (and which president, that of the commission or that of the parliament ) a demo, a football fight ouside a ground, a squaring up outside a pub/night club ?

As to implication any fault lies with you. I don't presume to know what all the countries in the EU might think regarding what has happened in Catalan. It is you who are presuming that by claiming that 'the' president can act unilaterally without the consent or agreement of the EU countries.
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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 07:16 - Oct 9 with 5456 viewsNo9

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 22:18 - Oct 8 by StokieBlue

How are they even remotely comparible?

The one today was a demonstration that the Catalan police allowed, the other was a vote which the Guardia Civil tried to stop and injured 900 people.

Nobody blamed the EU for blocking the vote, we were saying it was ridiculous they didn't condemn the violence. Totally different things as you know.

SB
[Post edited 8 Oct 2017 22:22]


According to this (Rueters) the EU did condenm the violence ans urged Spain to talk to the Catalons

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/eu-spain-catalonia-referendum-1.4316585
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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 07:25 - Oct 9 with 5446 viewsStokieBlue

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 07:16 - Oct 9 by No9

According to this (Rueters) the EU did condenm the violence ans urged Spain to talk to the Catalons

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/eu-spain-catalonia-referendum-1.4316585


Not until well into the day after it happened and everything was already done.

We were posting on the day so not relevant to the thread and Zombie's original point.

Article also says it was a "cautiously balance statement", they hardly condemned them at all as they were too vary of getting involved. The point being made is they would have been far harsher on say an African country doing the same thing and articles were posted highlighting them doing this in the past.

SB
[Post edited 9 Oct 2017 7:27]

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 07:29 - Oct 9 with 5440 viewsStokieBlue

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 23:18 - Oct 8 by HARRY10

I never said anything about a 4 day debate

I never stared that "every criticism of the EU means you are a rabid brexiteer "

"They" have a president. Given that the UK is part of the EU why are you talking about they ?

At what level should the EU president comment on violence (and which president, that of the commission or that of the parliament ) a demo, a football fight ouside a ground, a squaring up outside a pub/night club ?

As to implication any fault lies with you. I don't presume to know what all the countries in the EU might think regarding what has happened in Catalan. It is you who are presuming that by claiming that 'the' president can act unilaterally without the consent or agreement of the EU countries.


"At what level should the EU president comment on violence (and which president, that of the commission or that of the parliament ) a demo, a football fight ouside a ground, a squaring up outside a pub/night club ? "

Yep, those are all exactly the same as the internal police injuring many hundreds at a vote. Exactly the same.

You are trying far too hard. The EU condemn such actions in non-EU states much harder and call for free democratic votes to be allowed. Incredibly double-standards. It's been 8 days, have they condemned it in the strongest terms yet? I think they have just made a "cautiously balanced statement" as Reuters put it and called for unity.

SB
[Post edited 9 Oct 2017 7:30]

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 09:42 - Oct 9 with 5376 viewsNo9

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 07:25 - Oct 9 by StokieBlue

Not until well into the day after it happened and everything was already done.

We were posting on the day so not relevant to the thread and Zombie's original point.

Article also says it was a "cautiously balance statement", they hardly condemned them at all as they were too vary of getting involved. The point being made is they would have been far harsher on say an African country doing the same thing and articles were posted highlighting them doing this in the past.

SB
[Post edited 9 Oct 2017 7:27]


With 54 MEP's Spain may well have told the EU to keep out of it until asked to intervene.

The EU don't normally get involved with any nation state's problems unless invited to do so -e.g. the N.I issues despite the fact the UK had a military presence there
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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 09:49 - Oct 9 with 5363 viewsStokieBlue

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 09:42 - Oct 9 by No9

With 54 MEP's Spain may well have told the EU to keep out of it until asked to intervene.

The EU don't normally get involved with any nation state's problems unless invited to do so -e.g. the N.I issues despite the fact the UK had a military presence there


That's alright then, asked to not saying anything so don't worry about the hundreds of people hurt trying to vote.

I'm amazing you are OK with this. If the Tories had ordered the police to do what the Spanish did you've be screaming from the rooftops at all and sundry.

They are also quick to criticise non-member states for such actions - I already posted links in the other thread proving this.

SB

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 12:03 - Oct 9 with 5302 viewsNo9

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 09:49 - Oct 9 by StokieBlue

That's alright then, asked to not saying anything so don't worry about the hundreds of people hurt trying to vote.

I'm amazing you are OK with this. If the Tories had ordered the police to do what the Spanish did you've be screaming from the rooftops at all and sundry.

They are also quick to criticise non-member states for such actions - I already posted links in the other thread proving this.

SB


We live in violent times across the world - America is a good example as is Venezuala, why single out the EU for what a memebr state is doing when we don't know if the Spanish MEP's asked for intervention?

I didn't say, or imply I was OK with this but I don't see it to be as bad as the situation in America where gun law needs addressing & the President does not show any willingness to do anything other than bow to the gun lobby.

& the UK doesn't shove it's nose in where it isn't needed?

& Liam Fox isn't peddling all sorts military hardware stoking up the sort of thing we should be working to stop?
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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 12:13 - Oct 9 with 5287 viewsStokieBlue

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 12:03 - Oct 9 by No9

We live in violent times across the world - America is a good example as is Venezuala, why single out the EU for what a memebr state is doing when we don't know if the Spanish MEP's asked for intervention?

I didn't say, or imply I was OK with this but I don't see it to be as bad as the situation in America where gun law needs addressing & the President does not show any willingness to do anything other than bow to the gun lobby.

& the UK doesn't shove it's nose in where it isn't needed?

& Liam Fox isn't peddling all sorts military hardware stoking up the sort of thing we should be working to stop?


You've taken 3 not equatable scenarios and tried to equate them.

I really don't know what's going on with this forum half the time.

You got in your obligatory pop at the Tories on the last line though - nicely played.

SB

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 12:37 - Oct 9 with 5274 viewsNo9

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 12:13 - Oct 9 by StokieBlue

You've taken 3 not equatable scenarios and tried to equate them.

I really don't know what's going on with this forum half the time.

You got in your obligatory pop at the Tories on the last line though - nicely played.

SB


As an aside, if the EU did, without Spains invitation get involved in the Catalonian dispute, what would you say?

I think you should be more worried about this-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/09/britain-prepares-war-north-korea-new-
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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 12:45 - Oct 9 with 5268 viewsStokieBlue

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 12:37 - Oct 9 by No9

As an aside, if the EU did, without Spains invitation get involved in the Catalonian dispute, what would you say?

I think you should be more worried about this-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/09/britain-prepares-war-north-korea-new-


I would say well done - making a statement condemning violent actions against EU nationals is hardly getting involved - it should have been done and done sooner.

I've seen that article, it's fluff, trying to make out we have a good amount of military hardware available when we probably don't.

SB

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 13:52 - Oct 9 with 5240 viewsNo9

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 12:45 - Oct 9 by StokieBlue

I would say well done - making a statement condemning violent actions against EU nationals is hardly getting involved - it should have been done and done sooner.

I've seen that article, it's fluff, trying to make out we have a good amount of military hardware available when we probably don't.

SB


On 01/10/17-
https://www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/photos/a.100029970015.120344.99985820015

As far as military stuff is concerend had it not been for the French we may not have had the stuff shonw in the photo but; not having the right kit or not being ready has never bothered the policticians or the military before now.
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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 13:54 - Oct 9 with 5238 viewsStokieBlue

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 13:52 - Oct 9 by No9

On 01/10/17-
https://www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/photos/a.100029970015.120344.99985820015

As far as military stuff is concerend had it not been for the French we may not have had the stuff shonw in the photo but; not having the right kit or not being ready has never bothered the policticians or the military before now.


Doesn't count and was discussed on the day (I can't look at the link now but know what he said).

That wasn't an EU condemnation, that was Belgium going off on their own and condemning it, much like Scotland did because the EU wouldn't. Well done to both of them.

SB
[Post edited 9 Oct 2017 13:57]

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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 15:38 - Oct 9 with 5192 viewsNo9

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 13:54 - Oct 9 by StokieBlue

Doesn't count and was discussed on the day (I can't look at the link now but know what he said).

That wasn't an EU condemnation, that was Belgium going off on their own and condemning it, much like Scotland did because the EU wouldn't. Well done to both of them.

SB
[Post edited 9 Oct 2017 13:57]


It was made circa 08.00 on the Sunday morning & it is pretty clear he is doing it as a rep of the EU.
Do you have any evidence at all the 54 Spanish MEP's didn't say hand's off?

Why do I feel sure that had the EU got involved you would have been bleating loundy at their interference in another countries domestic affairs.

It don't work like that
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Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 17:25 - Oct 9 with 5164 viewsStokieBlue

Big ol' demo in Barcelona on 15:38 - Oct 9 by No9

It was made circa 08.00 on the Sunday morning & it is pretty clear he is doing it as a rep of the EU.
Do you have any evidence at all the 54 Spanish MEP's didn't say hand's off?

Why do I feel sure that had the EU got involved you would have been bleating loundy at their interference in another countries domestic affairs.

It don't work like that


So:

- That's not actually right, he made a statement on Friday as a Belgium MEP and not on behalf of the EU.

- Who cares what the 54 Spanish MEP's say? Do we ignore violence against voters because a few MEP's say we should? Bizarre point - surely you can see that?

- No I wouldn't and you shouldn't presume to say I would. It is wrong for anyone to be threatened or hurt when voting - the EU make a point of saying this to countries around the world, they have influence over Spain and should have made the point to them. I don't think I've ever made a post complaining about EU interference - you're looking for a brexiteer and that's not me.

Honestly, I don't understand your reasoning or your defence of the actions.

SB
[Post edited 9 Oct 2017 17:26]

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