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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath 08:05 - Oct 10 with 5334 viewsSteve_M

Well worth a read, far more so than the self-justificatory efforts of the Wiltshire police:

http://barristerblogger.com/2017/10/09/operation-conifer-report-sir-edward-heath


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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 08:30 - Oct 10 with 4459 viewsGlasgowBlue

That’s a long but very interesting read Steve. What stands out is the way the police kept using the word “victims” despite having no evidence that any abuse had been carried out.

Unfortunately, like Leon Britton, Inthink Heath has already been found guilty by the court of social media.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 09:02 - Oct 10 with 4408 viewsWeWereZombies

I would echo Glassers' view that your posting is an interesting read and the highlighting of the assumption of victims is fairly crictical of Wiltshire Police, although the bloggers claim that the force are 'institutionally credulous' is, although less culpable, a similar fault.

As well as the Leon Britten smears it also bring to mind the, as yet and probably always, unfounded rumours about Cliff Richard. That old adage that a lie can travel around the world before the truth has got its boots on has indeed found a new veracity through the world wide web.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 09:32 - Oct 10 with 4388 viewsGuthrum

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 09:02 - Oct 10 by WeWereZombies

I would echo Glassers' view that your posting is an interesting read and the highlighting of the assumption of victims is fairly crictical of Wiltshire Police, although the bloggers claim that the force are 'institutionally credulous' is, although less culpable, a similar fault.

As well as the Leon Britten smears it also bring to mind the, as yet and probably always, unfounded rumours about Cliff Richard. That old adage that a lie can travel around the world before the truth has got its boots on has indeed found a new veracity through the world wide web.


I think his 'institutionally credulous' comment is founded upon their starting assumption that all 'victims' should be 'believed', rather than simply producing a set of allegations requiring to be properly investigated - quite a different emphasis.

However, you can see where this comes from, with the police (at least in the sphere of public relations) overcompensating for previous situations, historically, when genuine victims of abuse were ignored out of hand. They've not yet managed to strike the middle ground of giving proper weight to allegations while still protecting the rights of those who have fallen under suspicion but have not yet been convicted.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:07 - Oct 10 with 4340 viewsSteve_M

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 09:32 - Oct 10 by Guthrum

I think his 'institutionally credulous' comment is founded upon their starting assumption that all 'victims' should be 'believed', rather than simply producing a set of allegations requiring to be properly investigated - quite a different emphasis.

However, you can see where this comes from, with the police (at least in the sphere of public relations) overcompensating for previous situations, historically, when genuine victims of abuse were ignored out of hand. They've not yet managed to strike the middle ground of giving proper weight to allegations while still protecting the rights of those who have fallen under suspicion but have not yet been convicted.


"They've not yet managed to strike the middle ground of giving proper weight to allegations while still protecting the rights of those who have fallen under suspicion but have not yet been convicted."

The suspicion is that some police officers start with an assumption and then look for evidence to confirm it. Group think probably plays a role here too.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:12 - Oct 10 with 4332 viewsRadlett_blue

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 09:02 - Oct 10 by WeWereZombies

I would echo Glassers' view that your posting is an interesting read and the highlighting of the assumption of victims is fairly crictical of Wiltshire Police, although the bloggers claim that the force are 'institutionally credulous' is, although less culpable, a similar fault.

As well as the Leon Britten smears it also bring to mind the, as yet and probably always, unfounded rumours about Cliff Richard. That old adage that a lie can travel around the world before the truth has got its boots on has indeed found a new veracity through the world wide web.


Of, if you want to choose a far less sympathetic figure, try Harvey Proctor. A Superintendent described allegations of abuse against Proctor made by one person as "credible and true" before they had even been properly investigated.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:14 - Oct 10 with 4325 viewsWeWereZombies

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 09:32 - Oct 10 by Guthrum

I think his 'institutionally credulous' comment is founded upon their starting assumption that all 'victims' should be 'believed', rather than simply producing a set of allegations requiring to be properly investigated - quite a different emphasis.

However, you can see where this comes from, with the police (at least in the sphere of public relations) overcompensating for previous situations, historically, when genuine victims of abuse were ignored out of hand. They've not yet managed to strike the middle ground of giving proper weight to allegations while still protecting the rights of those who have fallen under suspicion but have not yet been convicted.


Difficult, isn't it?

If we dismiss every claim that is not backed up by forensic evidence we steamroller out a terrible swathe of criminal activity, if we accept every allegation we open ourselves up to a welter of false memory syndrome.

I think it was an interview with 'Nick' that I heard on Radio Four's five o'clock news a couple of years ago that was one of those pull the car over and concentrate moments (except I was in a traffic queue in Perth so had no need to pull over). I was taken hook, line and sinker and the BBC news anchor did nothing to dispel the effect when the chilling news of boys abused and murdered finished. Getting somewhat sceptical of that now.

On the other hand, whilst Alan Brazil can make a right tit of himself his openness about the Celtic Boys Club helped bring terrible actions to light and ushered in a new realisation and set of regulations to aim to prevent child abuse.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:18 - Oct 10 with 4321 viewsRadlett_blue

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:14 - Oct 10 by WeWereZombies

Difficult, isn't it?

If we dismiss every claim that is not backed up by forensic evidence we steamroller out a terrible swathe of criminal activity, if we accept every allegation we open ourselves up to a welter of false memory syndrome.

I think it was an interview with 'Nick' that I heard on Radio Four's five o'clock news a couple of years ago that was one of those pull the car over and concentrate moments (except I was in a traffic queue in Perth so had no need to pull over). I was taken hook, line and sinker and the BBC news anchor did nothing to dispel the effect when the chilling news of boys abused and murdered finished. Getting somewhat sceptical of that now.

On the other hand, whilst Alan Brazil can make a right tit of himself his openness about the Celtic Boys Club helped bring terrible actions to light and ushered in a new realisation and set of regulations to aim to prevent child abuse.


It must be near impossible to secure a safe conviction if the sole evidence is one person's word against another's. That's why at times publicity can be justified if it encourages other victims to come forward. But can clearly also be very damaging if the allegations are false.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:31 - Oct 10 with 4293 viewslowhouseblue

there needs now to be a proper review of what the wiltshire police have done here - a judge going through their investigation and evidence. the points raised in that blog and elsewhere suggests that their investigation and behaviour was deeply flawed.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:32 - Oct 10 with 4287 viewsGuthrum

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:07 - Oct 10 by Steve_M

"They've not yet managed to strike the middle ground of giving proper weight to allegations while still protecting the rights of those who have fallen under suspicion but have not yet been convicted."

The suspicion is that some police officers start with an assumption and then look for evidence to confirm it. Group think probably plays a role here too.


That's human nature. Takes a lot of training and experience to get over that, plus the humility to admit errors - not to mention an environment where doing the latter does not inevitably lead to potentially career-ending censure (c.f. government ministers being slated for making "U-turns" on manifestly bad policies).

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:35 - Oct 10 with 4274 viewsfactual_blue

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:18 - Oct 10 by Radlett_blue

It must be near impossible to secure a safe conviction if the sole evidence is one person's word against another's. That's why at times publicity can be justified if it encourages other victims to come forward. But can clearly also be very damaging if the allegations are false.


Until the mid-19th century pretty well all evidence was one person's word against another. The first forensics were footprints, then fingerprints. Then I think blood group analysis (and Sherlock Holmes stuff like blood splatter patterns).

It's easy to forget how recent detailed and meaningful forensic evidence is.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:35 - Oct 10 with 4274 viewsGuthrum

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:31 - Oct 10 by lowhouseblue

there needs now to be a proper review of what the wiltshire police have done here - a judge going through their investigation and evidence. the points raised in that blog and elsewhere suggests that their investigation and behaviour was deeply flawed.


The problem being that takes even more time and money, without much chance of coming to a firm (and publicly trusted) conclusion (Heath himself and a number of potential witnesses being dead).

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:06 - Oct 10 with 4236 viewslowhouseblue

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:35 - Oct 10 by Guthrum

The problem being that takes even more time and money, without much chance of coming to a firm (and publicly trusted) conclusion (Heath himself and a number of potential witnesses being dead).


but there are significant policy issues about how police treat accusations and how they publicise them etc. there may also be issues to do how they treat uncorroborated historical accounts and things like recovered memory. some were dealt with by the judge who reviewed operation midland, but those lessons don't seem to have been learned.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:10 - Oct 10 with 4223 viewsRadlett_blue

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:35 - Oct 10 by factual_blue

Until the mid-19th century pretty well all evidence was one person's word against another. The first forensics were footprints, then fingerprints. Then I think blood group analysis (and Sherlock Holmes stuff like blood splatter patterns).

It's easy to forget how recent detailed and meaningful forensic evidence is.


Not so. Only in certain types of cases e.g. rape, sexual abuse, is the evidence largely one person's word or another. In many cases, there are 3rd party witnesses.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:23 - Oct 10 with 4213 viewsWeWereZombies

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:10 - Oct 10 by Radlett_blue

Not so. Only in certain types of cases e.g. rape, sexual abuse, is the evidence largely one person's word or another. In many cases, there are 3rd party witnesses.


But that is not the point Factual is making, he is pointing out how recent forensics are.

We should also remember that 'facts' can be placed in incriminating places by perpetrators to convince everyone that an innocent person is guilty...

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:31 - Oct 10 with 4197 viewsfactual_blue

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:23 - Oct 10 by WeWereZombies

But that is not the point Factual is making, he is pointing out how recent forensics are.

We should also remember that 'facts' can be placed in incriminating places by perpetrators to convince everyone that an innocent person is guilty...


Another interesting point about crime in the eighteenth and well into the nineteenth century is that pretty well all crimes were private prosecutions, brought by the aggrieved party. It was by no means uncommon for a vindictive person to allege theft by somebody, who would then be put in jail for a few weeks until the trial date.

Come the trial date the alleged victim would offer no evidence and the accused would be released. They would, of course, have been locked up for a couple of months.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:42 - Oct 10 with 4178 viewsArcher4721

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 08:30 - Oct 10 by GlasgowBlue

That’s a long but very interesting read Steve. What stands out is the way the police kept using the word “victims” despite having no evidence that any abuse had been carried out.

Unfortunately, like Leon Britton, Inthink Heath has already been found guilty by the court of social media.


Mmmm.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:43 - Oct 10 with 4182 viewsSteve_M

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:31 - Oct 10 by factual_blue

Another interesting point about crime in the eighteenth and well into the nineteenth century is that pretty well all crimes were private prosecutions, brought by the aggrieved party. It was by no means uncommon for a vindictive person to allege theft by somebody, who would then be put in jail for a few weeks until the trial date.

Come the trial date the alleged victim would offer no evidence and the accused would be released. They would, of course, have been locked up for a couple of months.


That was possibly preferable to the Russian system at that time, when that kind of accusation invariably lead to exile in Siberia - occasionally for a long time, sometimes for life.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:46 - Oct 10 with 4176 viewsfactual_blue

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:43 - Oct 10 by Steve_M

That was possibly preferable to the Russian system at that time, when that kind of accusation invariably lead to exile in Siberia - occasionally for a long time, sometimes for life.


I always find it amusing when people talk about the cruelties of the Stalinist and Maoist regimes, when both of those leaders were behaving exactly like their imperialist predecessors. These behaviours are cultural and deeply ingrained.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:52 - Oct 10 with 4166 viewsSteve_M

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:46 - Oct 10 by factual_blue

I always find it amusing when people talk about the cruelties of the Stalinist and Maoist regimes, when both of those leaders were behaving exactly like their imperialist predecessors. These behaviours are cultural and deeply ingrained.


Well, to an extent. Stalin's paranoia, repression and 'population exchanges' took things to a whole different level.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:59 - Oct 10 with 4151 viewsArcher4721

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 10:31 - Oct 10 by lowhouseblue

there needs now to be a proper review of what the wiltshire police have done here - a judge going through their investigation and evidence. the points raised in that blog and elsewhere suggests that their investigation and behaviour was deeply flawed.


"deeply flawed" investigations you say...


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/09/mi5-knew-prosecutors-lied-press
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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 12:03 - Oct 10 with 4134 viewsSteve_M

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:59 - Oct 10 by Archer4721

"deeply flawed" investigations you say...


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/09/mi5-knew-prosecutors-lied-press


As ever, you refuse to engage the points made in the post I originally linked. It's quite tedious.

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 12:08 - Oct 10 with 4115 viewsArcher4721

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 12:03 - Oct 10 by Steve_M

As ever, you refuse to engage the points made in the post I originally linked. It's quite tedious.


So you don't think these could be mutually linked? and are part of an establishment cover-up?
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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 12:29 - Oct 10 with 4079 viewschicoazul

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 08:30 - Oct 10 by GlasgowBlue

That’s a long but very interesting read Steve. What stands out is the way the police kept using the word “victims” despite having no evidence that any abuse had been carried out.

Unfortunately, like Leon Britton, Inthink Heath has already been found guilty by the court of social media.


The use of "victim" is absolutely ridiculous. The police in the UK continue to think of themselves as some force of vengeance rather than a method for preventing and investigating crime.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 12:35 - Oct 10 with 4068 viewsbluewein

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 11:42 - Oct 10 by Archer4721

Mmmm.



So you're going down that road. Ok...



LOOK!!! EVEN DIANA WAS A WRONG'UN!!! SHE MET SAVILLE!!! CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE!


And you have the gall to say others are the prime baiters on here? Tedious beyond belief...

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A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 12:57 - Oct 10 with 4034 viewsbournemouthblue

A thoughtful analysis of WIltshire police's report into Edward Heath on 09:02 - Oct 10 by WeWereZombies

I would echo Glassers' view that your posting is an interesting read and the highlighting of the assumption of victims is fairly crictical of Wiltshire Police, although the bloggers claim that the force are 'institutionally credulous' is, although less culpable, a similar fault.

As well as the Leon Britten smears it also bring to mind the, as yet and probably always, unfounded rumours about Cliff Richard. That old adage that a lie can travel around the world before the truth has got its boots on has indeed found a new veracity through the world wide web.


I've not read the report but it's quite clear almost immediately that the person writing this has a dim view of the police and this is where it loses me

The fact much of it is redacted suggests much of the evidence obtained was gained via covert sources and conclusions drawn can't be properly assessed

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