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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' 08:38 - Oct 16 with 3966 viewsWeWereZombies

Not a quote from me from the former head of the civil service Sir Bob Kerslake:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/lesley-riddoch-brexit-crisis-more-calamitou

Whether you are Remain or Leave there are some interesting points to chew over in the above article, the one I find most intriguing is the view that we are at the moment being ruled by a coalition and we will be whoever wins the next election.

'The Labour leadership, while notionally pro-Remain, really want to leave while the Tory leadership, who are pushing through Brexit, are on the whole in favour of remaining. The Labour leadership has to argue half-heartedly for Remain to hold its coalition together and the Conservative leadership has to argue unconvincingly about the benefits of leaving to hold its coalition together.'

And, oh, the cost -

'We need at least a four-year transition period and we are nowhere near starting proper talks about trading relationships because we need to sort the payment issue out. £50 billion looks like a lot of money but in the scheme of government spending, it isn’t.'

So if you are wondering why that £330m a week isn't being spent on the NHS, well that's three years worth of it right there - at least the transition period is down from the ten years mooted by Deloittes at the start of the year, no mention of the 30,000 extra civil servants they suggested though.

Still, at least we can flounce off and join the other five countries who exist without trade deals.

Poll: If no second election before the start of the season should Jezza replace Mick?

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 14:05 - Oct 17 with 529 viewsGlasgowBlue

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:08 - Oct 17 by Libero

You think it's gone well?!


With respect, I haven't made any claim on this thread. You did:

"It's hard to understand how this could have gone any worse"

So I am asking you to expand on that staement.
[Post edited 17 Oct 14:06]

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 14:06 - Oct 17 with 533 viewsArcher4721

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:53 - Oct 17 by imsureazzure

And the leader of the opposition campaigned so fu kin weakly for something he was against.

Oh and the labour heartlands voted in huge swathes for it.


The leader of the opposition wasn't part of the Government like The Liberals!


The whole thing was a Tory gig done for one reason...to save the Tory party from splitting not the good of the country and that mantra still applies now..
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 14:07 - Oct 17 with 534 viewsWeWereZombies

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:11 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue

a) Both the cabinet and shadow cabinet are clearly divided on the issue, although the shadow cabinet less so as JC won't allow the really pro-EU people like Chuka Umunna anywhere near the shadow cabinet. It's a horrible mess from both parties (although No9 keeps telling me I am wrong about this).

b) This is quite hard to quantify. Do you mean the upfront cost? The ongoing cost? The cost in terms of money or in terms of jobs and prosperity?

c) I'm not sure where you get that there at 5 countries not in the WTO? There are more than that but it's irrelevant I guess. The largest non WTO country is Iran with the world's 27th highest GDP. I am not sure why this is an issue though? We would be in the WTO and thus surely could trade with any other country in the WTO under WTO rules? Obviously this is not as good as a free trade agreement though.

SB


Thanks - good answers, especially a). If Labour were at least clear about their Brexit position (and it was overwhelming well argued if it was pro-Brexit) I would think seriously about going back to them but they are complete non-starters at the moment.

Agreed we cannot quantify the cost (and us you point out everyone will have a different idea of what cost means) but I feel that some of the people who voted Leave may have voted differently or abstained if an honest view of the sums involved had been more widespread.

Finally, I'm getting so steamed up about the poor quality of replies (present company excepted) that I'm misremembering the article I am recommending - Riddoch actually wrote five countries without any trade deal at all and my quick google did not give me a quick answer but there are, I think, five countries not coloured on the map in this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multilateral_free-trade_agreements

Looks like Iran (well done), Mauritania, Somalia, South Sudan and Eritrea. I think some of the posters who have suggested we should say feck the EU and go off on our own without any deal anywhere need to reflect on the company we would be keeping.
[Post edited 17 Oct 14:25]

Poll: If no second election before the start of the season should Jezza replace Mick?

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 14:22 - Oct 17 with 518 viewsWeWereZombies

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:25 - Oct 17 by caught-in-limbo

Am I ever wrong? Just on the previous page of this very thread I wrote in response to a comment by GlasgowBlue:

"I apologise I should have said: “but all that is being reported is a supposed deadlock over Northern Ireland, money to pay and the movement of EU citizens in the UK and vice versa. I thought there were trade discussions going on too. Thanks for the correction."


expose: to remove what is covering something so that it can be seen.
report: to give a description of something or information about it to someone.
source: cambridge.dictionary.org

It's the difference between saying "there's a patio in the back yard" and "there's a dead body buried under the patio."

In short it's the difference between the press acting as a government mouthpiece (reporting) or holding the government to account on behalf of the people (exposing).

In fact the media is the 4th column of a democracy.

Not seeing the difference between the two words is not understanding the importance of the press to investigate without restriction what our our elected leaders do, identify when they act unlawfully and expose them without fear of doing so.

I really haven't been called out on my use of English. I am a linguist. I speak 3 languages. I am an English language teacher and an Advanced Language Learner book writer. The idea that you or WWZ might call me out on my use of English is even less likely than me giving you a lesson in hedge funds.


It's not the words, it's how you use them. If you are setting out to convince (although I suspect you just want to keep the pot boiling) then feedback that tells you that you have been utterly unconvincing should alert you to the probability that you have not used the words at all well in this instance.

For what it is worth, as a qualified accountant and with a Masters in Philosophy, my take on this whole brouhaha is that an individual cannot process all the information that is needed to be processed but a network of individuals using reasoning and rhetoric can cover as much ground as is necessary and sufficient. Some of those individuals are reporters and the rest of the individuals assess what has been reported. We know that evil is always with use. Prevention, control and eradication are more important tasks than flagging up a supposed expose and basking in the reflected glory - see the current furore around Harvey Weinstein for an expose that came thirty years too late.

Poll: If no second election before the start of the season should Jezza replace Mick?

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 14:45 - Oct 17 with 500 viewsWeWereZombies

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:14 - Oct 17 by noggin

The only people who should be held responsible for the mess are the politicians who called the referendum and asked an ignorant public to vote.


That absolves everyone who has acted after the referendum - the House of Commons who did practically nothing to regard the referendum as advisory and non-mandatory, the rupture to the Tory leadership, the cabinet post June 2016, the decision of when to trigger Article 50, Sturgeon's surprise move for Indyref2, May's subsequent close scrape with the electorate. Do you really want say they are not to blame? And I haven't even mentioned Boris, Davis and Fox in that list - or UKIP. If you had to pick a least culpable from that lot I think I would have to ask if we could include Cameron to make the choice easy.

Poll: If no second election before the start of the season should Jezza replace Mick?

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:22 - Oct 17 with 472 viewsimsureazzure

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 14:06 - Oct 17 by Archer4721

The leader of the opposition wasn't part of the Government like The Liberals!


The whole thing was a Tory gig done for one reason...to save the Tory party from splitting not the good of the country and that mantra still applies now..


What is Corbyn's position? What is the labour party position? We don't really know the party position it was not debated at conference, what a shambles.
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:23 - Oct 17 with 466 viewscaught-in-limbo

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 14:22 - Oct 17 by WeWereZombies

It's not the words, it's how you use them. If you are setting out to convince (although I suspect you just want to keep the pot boiling) then feedback that tells you that you have been utterly unconvincing should alert you to the probability that you have not used the words at all well in this instance.

For what it is worth, as a qualified accountant and with a Masters in Philosophy, my take on this whole brouhaha is that an individual cannot process all the information that is needed to be processed but a network of individuals using reasoning and rhetoric can cover as much ground as is necessary and sufficient. Some of those individuals are reporters and the rest of the individuals assess what has been reported. We know that evil is always with use. Prevention, control and eradication are more important tasks than flagging up a supposed expose and basking in the reflected glory - see the current furore around Harvey Weinstein for an expose that came thirty years too late.


I'm not one for wanting to keep the pot boiling for the sake of it, and I've never had a problem with you in the past. I thought our opening exchanges were amicable enough despite you calling my suggestions useless and barmy. Our exchanges then deteriorated when the posts started to get sarcastic.

Linguistically speaking we're dealing with 2 collocates here:

a) media / expose / government
b) media / report / government

The two are worlds apart in my opinion and my illustration of "mouthpiece" versus "investigative journalism" is appropriate.

The media can both report and expose the actions of the government. I used the word "expose" intentionally and it was understood by Stokie as "report". I then clarified my use of the word. He didn't accept the clarification and that's why he continued to believe I had not answered his question

You say that I have not used the words well but have offered nothing to demonstrate why. I cannot be blamed for others not understanding the words I have correctly chosen, especially when I have even added further clarification.

It's all been a rather pointless argument anyway - the general consensus appears to be Brexit or not, very little will change - I don't call that "Brexit" - and that has been my position for the last 2 years.

I think the Government, through their incompetence, have shown enormous disrespect of the referendum and the will of the people and the press have done little to take the Government to task on this, and that is what irks me.

I apologise for not responding to your thread in the way you hoped.

Case closed

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:31 - Oct 17 with 461 viewsWeWereZombies

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:23 - Oct 17 by caught-in-limbo

I'm not one for wanting to keep the pot boiling for the sake of it, and I've never had a problem with you in the past. I thought our opening exchanges were amicable enough despite you calling my suggestions useless and barmy. Our exchanges then deteriorated when the posts started to get sarcastic.

Linguistically speaking we're dealing with 2 collocates here:

a) media / expose / government
b) media / report / government

The two are worlds apart in my opinion and my illustration of "mouthpiece" versus "investigative journalism" is appropriate.

The media can both report and expose the actions of the government. I used the word "expose" intentionally and it was understood by Stokie as "report". I then clarified my use of the word. He didn't accept the clarification and that's why he continued to believe I had not answered his question

You say that I have not used the words well but have offered nothing to demonstrate why. I cannot be blamed for others not understanding the words I have correctly chosen, especially when I have even added further clarification.

It's all been a rather pointless argument anyway - the general consensus appears to be Brexit or not, very little will change - I don't call that "Brexit" - and that has been my position for the last 2 years.

I think the Government, through their incompetence, have shown enormous disrespect of the referendum and the will of the people and the press have done little to take the Government to task on this, and that is what irks me.

I apologise for not responding to your thread in the way you hoped.

Case closed


Well you got the last two sentences right.

Agreed, case closed.

Poll: If no second election before the start of the season should Jezza replace Mick?

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:33 - Oct 17 with 452 viewscaught-in-limbo

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 14:45 - Oct 17 by WeWereZombies

That absolves everyone who has acted after the referendum - the House of Commons who did practically nothing to regard the referendum as advisory and non-mandatory, the rupture to the Tory leadership, the cabinet post June 2016, the decision of when to trigger Article 50, Sturgeon's surprise move for Indyref2, May's subsequent close scrape with the electorate. Do you really want say they are not to blame? And I haven't even mentioned Boris, Davis and Fox in that list - or UKIP. If you had to pick a least culpable from that lot I think I would have to ask if we could include Cameron to make the choice easy.


I agree. I will add that the press are also culpable. Not only were they content to allow Brexit to be dumbed down to a single issue - immigration - but they also fanned the flames. They did next to nothing to challenge /ask the Government about their plans following a possible leave vote, and much more besides.
[Post edited 17 Oct 15:34]

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:44 - Oct 17 with 439 viewsGlasgowBlue

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:22 - Oct 17 by imsureazzure

What is Corbyn's position? What is the labour party position? We don't really know the party position it was not debated at conference, what a shambles.


What is the labour party position? It depnds what time of the day it is.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:56 - Oct 17 with 427 viewsWeWereZombies

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:44 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue

What is the labour party position? It depnds what time of the day it is.


Riddoch suggests this is also the case with the Tories but we hear less about it - or it is couched in different terms because although Hammond probably wants Brexit abandoned he know he has to say he doesn't want a hard Brexit in order to keep his job?

Poll: If no second election before the start of the season should Jezza replace Mick?

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 19:22 - Oct 19 with 349 viewsGlasgowBlue

You know how I look forward to your fair and balanced daily Brexit briefings but you aoeaer to have forgoten to post these three stories today.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-16/germany-drafts-outline-of-eu-

Germany is working on proposals for the European Union’s future relations with the U.K. that include calls for a “comprehensive free-trade accord” with the British government, according to a draft paper prepared by the Foreign Ministry in Berlin.

http://www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2017/10/brexituppdrag/

“In order to be ready for forthcoming negotiations, the government is currently calling on the National Board of Trade to draw up a basis for Swedish trade interests in the EU’s negotiations with the UK about a new trade relationship after Brexit. The Board shall, on the basis of available statistics, identify which sectors of trade in goods and services between Sweden and Great Britain, which are particularly important for the Swedish economy, and for Swedish employment. The college will then, on the basis of Swedish interests, identify a number of sectors for in-depth analysis. The in-depth analysis will consider how a future trade agreement can affect trade in key sectors and whether there are existing technical solutions in other EU agreements or other solutions that may be desirable for each sector.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/18/theresa-may-writes-to-eu-citize

The prime minister will send an email directly to 100,000 EU citizens offering reassurance as the Brexit negotiations stall, saying: “I couldn’t be clearer: EU citizens living lawfully in the UK today will be able to stay.”

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 20:35 - Oct 19 with 315 viewsWeWereZombies

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 19:22 - Oct 19 by GlasgowBlue

You know how I look forward to your fair and balanced daily Brexit briefings but you aoeaer to have forgoten to post these three stories today.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-16/germany-drafts-outline-of-eu-

Germany is working on proposals for the European Union’s future relations with the U.K. that include calls for a “comprehensive free-trade accord” with the British government, according to a draft paper prepared by the Foreign Ministry in Berlin.

http://www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2017/10/brexituppdrag/

“In order to be ready for forthcoming negotiations, the government is currently calling on the National Board of Trade to draw up a basis for Swedish trade interests in the EU’s negotiations with the UK about a new trade relationship after Brexit. The Board shall, on the basis of available statistics, identify which sectors of trade in goods and services between Sweden and Great Britain, which are particularly important for the Swedish economy, and for Swedish employment. The college will then, on the basis of Swedish interests, identify a number of sectors for in-depth analysis. The in-depth analysis will consider how a future trade agreement can affect trade in key sectors and whether there are existing technical solutions in other EU agreements or other solutions that may be desirable for each sector.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/18/theresa-may-writes-to-eu-citize

The prime minister will send an email directly to 100,000 EU citizens offering reassurance as the Brexit negotiations stall, saying: “I couldn’t be clearer: EU citizens living lawfully in the UK today will be able to stay.”


I almost made it through the day, thanks. At least it kept you quiet for a while. I was beginning to get worried...

You're right that there are encouraging signs of movement from Theresa May and Merkel but from the third of your sources we also have, on this very same day, an account that Owen Paterson, Nigel Lawson, John Redwood and Peter Lilley still playing the 'no deal' fool:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/19/brexit-talks-uk-must-prepare-to

Poll: If no second election before the start of the season should Jezza replace Mick?

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 20:43 - Oct 19 with 309 viewsGlasgowBlue

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 20:35 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies

I almost made it through the day, thanks. At least it kept you quiet for a while. I was beginning to get worried...

You're right that there are encouraging signs of movement from Theresa May and Merkel but from the third of your sources we also have, on this very same day, an account that Owen Paterson, Nigel Lawson, John Redwood and Peter Lilley still playing the 'no deal' fool:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/19/brexit-talks-uk-must-prepare-to


Sensibel to plan for no deal. Weren't you critical of Cameron not praparing for a leave result?

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 20:50 - Oct 19 with 304 viewsWeWereZombies

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 20:43 - Oct 19 by GlasgowBlue

Sensibel to plan for no deal. Weren't you critical of Cameron not praparing for a leave result?


I didn't really think about Cameron not preparing for a Leave result before the referendum, sadly it looks like he didn't either.

It's not really that sensible planning for no deal though, is it? Britain knows it's a bad idea, the EU, as your links give evidence for, know it is a bad idea. Unless you are expecting a Derek Bentley 'Let him have it' situation - that's not a good idea either.

Poll: If no second election before the start of the season should Jezza replace Mick?

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 21:07 - Oct 19 with 289 viewsGlasgowBlue

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 20:50 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies

I didn't really think about Cameron not preparing for a Leave result before the referendum, sadly it looks like he didn't either.

It's not really that sensible planning for no deal though, is it? Britain knows it's a bad idea, the EU, as your links give evidence for, know it is a bad idea. Unless you are expecting a Derek Bentley 'Let him have it' situation - that's not a good idea either.


I will comde back to you with my view on this but I'm off to Krakow first thing in the morning and won't be back until Monday so I won't rush off a quick reply.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 10:13 - Oct 20 with 227 viewsNo9

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 15:22 - Oct 17 by imsureazzure

What is Corbyn's position? What is the labour party position? We don't really know the party position it was not debated at conference, what a shambles.


Everything to do with thentories - no one else

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-leave-means-leave-a8008736.html
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 10:35 - Oct 20 with 217 viewsNo9

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 20:35 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies

I almost made it through the day, thanks. At least it kept you quiet for a while. I was beginning to get worried...

You're right that there are encouraging signs of movement from Theresa May and Merkel but from the third of your sources we also have, on this very same day, an account that Owen Paterson, Nigel Lawson, John Redwood and Peter Lilley still playing the 'no deal' fool:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/19/brexit-talks-uk-must-prepare-to


'No deal' is being engineered.
The EU have now realised the UK- RW does not want a deal.
Things may change-

Corbyn & labour shuld keep out of ti as they will only get the blame no matter what happens

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-strategy-eu-europe-juncker-speech-the
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