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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' 08:38 - Oct 16 with 3832 viewsWeWereZombies

Not a quote from me from the former head of the civil service Sir Bob Kerslake:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/lesley-riddoch-brexit-crisis-more-calamitou

Whether you are Remain or Leave there are some interesting points to chew over in the above article, the one I find most intriguing is the view that we are at the moment being ruled by a coalition and we will be whoever wins the next election.

'The Labour leadership, while notionally pro-Remain, really want to leave while the Tory leadership, who are pushing through Brexit, are on the whole in favour of remaining. The Labour leadership has to argue half-heartedly for Remain to hold its coalition together and the Conservative leadership has to argue unconvincingly about the benefits of leaving to hold its coalition together.'

And, oh, the cost -

'We need at least a four-year transition period and we are nowhere near starting proper talks about trading relationships because we need to sort the payment issue out. £50 billion looks like a lot of money but in the scheme of government spending, it isn’t.'

So if you are wondering why that £330m a week isn't being spent on the NHS, well that's three years worth of it right there - at least the transition period is down from the ten years mooted by Deloittes at the start of the year, no mention of the 30,000 extra civil servants they suggested though.

Still, at least we can flounce off and join the other five countries who exist without trade deals.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:47 - Oct 17 with 486 viewsStokieBlue

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:05 - Oct 17 by caught-in-limbo

"Well I guess you've answered the question by actually using a media source to support one of your subsequent arguments thus showing that your original point on the media not reporting on brexit was nonsense.

You've changed the wording again. Yesterday you were using the word "expose" as I did. Now you've switched it to "report". This was your problem all along. I was saying that the press were not exposing stuff - you've spent lots of time getting in a flap about me thinking they're not reporting stuff. That's why I made a point of explaining what I meant be expose. You're having a bit of difficulty with simple words in this thread.

Thanks for your comments all the same about Brexit. You're saying it'll probably happen but nothing will really change. I suppose that has to be a soft brexit at a push, but in reality a brexit in name only.

Your view seems to be exactly as I described as "putty brexit" in one of my posts 3 or 4 months ago.
[Post edited 17 Oct 11:10]


What is the difference between expose and report?

With regards to the media and reporting I would posit they mean the same thing and that you are trying to use semantics to escape the point. I didn't change any wording deliberately, I just wrote from memory - many apologies for not going back 3 pages and picking the exact word you used.

"You're having a bit of difficulty with simple words in this thread."

Condescending as usual. Are you ever wrong? You fall back on any tiny semantic point you can once you've been called out - it's a bit embarrassing really.

SB

Edit: I see his Zombieness has beaten me to this point.
[Post edited 17 Oct 11:49]

Nothing else needed

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:54 - Oct 17 with 475 viewsLibero

I wonder how those that voted to leave actually feel about it all now...
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:57 - Oct 17 with 468 viewsJ2BLUE

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:54 - Oct 17 by Libero

I wonder how those that voted to leave actually feel about it all now...


Absolutely fine, thanks. GB has said all along it will go to the final hour before a deal is struck. I agree. I have no issue with the government announcing another referendum on the final deal after it has been agreed. Right now though, I think people are overreacting. If there was another referendum today i'd still vote the same way.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:00 - Oct 17 with 462 viewsLibero

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:57 - Oct 17 by J2BLUE

Absolutely fine, thanks. GB has said all along it will go to the final hour before a deal is struck. I agree. I have no issue with the government announcing another referendum on the final deal after it has been agreed. Right now though, I think people are overreacting. If there was another referendum today i'd still vote the same way.


lol.
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:00 - Oct 17 with 460 viewsWeWereZombies

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:54 - Oct 17 by Libero

I wonder how those that voted to leave actually feel about it all now...


I don't care, all i want to know is how TWTDers feel about:

a) the claim that both the Tory and Labour cabinets are a coalition of otherwise warring factions, especially on Brexit

b) the cost

c) who the five non-WTO countries are...because I haven't bothered to look it up and I'm going to go and dig up some potatoes now.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:11 - Oct 17 with 442 viewsStokieBlue

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:00 - Oct 17 by WeWereZombies

I don't care, all i want to know is how TWTDers feel about:

a) the claim that both the Tory and Labour cabinets are a coalition of otherwise warring factions, especially on Brexit

b) the cost

c) who the five non-WTO countries are...because I haven't bothered to look it up and I'm going to go and dig up some potatoes now.


a) Both the cabinet and shadow cabinet are clearly divided on the issue, although the shadow cabinet less so as JC won't allow the really pro-EU people like Chuka Umunna anywhere near the shadow cabinet. It's a horrible mess from both parties (although No9 keeps telling me I am wrong about this).

b) This is quite hard to quantify. Do you mean the upfront cost? The ongoing cost? The cost in terms of money or in terms of jobs and prosperity?

c) I'm not sure where you get that there at 5 countries not in the WTO? There are more than that but it's irrelevant I guess. The largest non WTO country is Iran with the world's 27th highest GDP. I am not sure why this is an issue though? We would be in the WTO and thus surely could trade with any other country in the WTO under WTO rules? Obviously this is not as good as a free trade agreement though.

SB

Nothing else needed

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:14 - Oct 17 with 439 viewscaught-in-limbo

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:26 - Oct 17 by WeWereZombies

When is reporting not exposing? When the reader does not see a wrong in the situation being reported on?

When is exposing not reporting? When a situation is mis-reported?

When do these semantics matter? At the moment they do not matter a jot to me because not one of the pertinent questions I brought up in my original post has been tackled by the respondents. Please try and be less useless in future.
[Post edited 17 Oct 11:55]


expose: to remove what is covering something so that it can be seen.
report: to give a description of something or information about it to someone.
source: cambridge.dictionary.org

It's the difference between saying "there's a patio in the back yard" and "there's a dead body buried under the patio."

In short it's the difference between the press acting as a government mouthpiece (reporting) or holding the government to account on behalf of the people (exposing).

In fact the media is the 4th column of a democracy.

Not seeing the difference between the two words is not understanding the importance of the press to investigate without restriction what our our elected leaders do, identify when they act unlawfully and expose them without fear of doing so.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:25 - Oct 17 with 429 viewscaught-in-limbo

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:47 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue

What is the difference between expose and report?

With regards to the media and reporting I would posit they mean the same thing and that you are trying to use semantics to escape the point. I didn't change any wording deliberately, I just wrote from memory - many apologies for not going back 3 pages and picking the exact word you used.

"You're having a bit of difficulty with simple words in this thread."

Condescending as usual. Are you ever wrong? You fall back on any tiny semantic point you can once you've been called out - it's a bit embarrassing really.

SB

Edit: I see his Zombieness has beaten me to this point.
[Post edited 17 Oct 11:49]


Am I ever wrong? Just on the previous page of this very thread I wrote in response to a comment by GlasgowBlue:

"I apologise I should have said: “but all that is being reported is a supposed deadlock over Northern Ireland, money to pay and the movement of EU citizens in the UK and vice versa. I thought there were trade discussions going on too. Thanks for the correction."


expose: to remove what is covering something so that it can be seen.
report: to give a description of something or information about it to someone.
source: cambridge.dictionary.org

It's the difference between saying "there's a patio in the back yard" and "there's a dead body buried under the patio."

In short it's the difference between the press acting as a government mouthpiece (reporting) or holding the government to account on behalf of the people (exposing).

In fact the media is the 4th column of a democracy.

Not seeing the difference between the two words is not understanding the importance of the press to investigate without restriction what our our elected leaders do, identify when they act unlawfully and expose them without fear of doing so.

I really haven't been called out on my use of English. I am a linguist. I speak 3 languages. I am an English language teacher and an Advanced Language Learner book writer. The idea that you or WWZ might call me out on my use of English is even less likely than me giving you a lesson in hedge funds.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:30 - Oct 17 with 423 viewsTonyj

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:14 - Oct 17 by caught-in-limbo

expose: to remove what is covering something so that it can be seen.
report: to give a description of something or information about it to someone.
source: cambridge.dictionary.org

It's the difference between saying "there's a patio in the back yard" and "there's a dead body buried under the patio."

In short it's the difference between the press acting as a government mouthpiece (reporting) or holding the government to account on behalf of the people (exposing).

In fact the media is the 4th column of a democracy.

Not seeing the difference between the two words is not understanding the importance of the press to investigate without restriction what our our elected leaders do, identify when they act unlawfully and expose them without fear of doing so.


It's the difference between saying "there's a patio in the back yard" and "there's a dead body buried under the patio."

In short it's the difference between the press acting as a government mouthpiece (reporting) or holding the government to account on behalf of the people (exposing).

Weak stuff that.
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:34 - Oct 17 with 418 viewsJ2BLUE

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:00 - Oct 17 by Libero

lol.


Thanks for the thoughtful response.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:46 - Oct 17 with 398 viewsNo9

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:11 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue

a) Both the cabinet and shadow cabinet are clearly divided on the issue, although the shadow cabinet less so as JC won't allow the really pro-EU people like Chuka Umunna anywhere near the shadow cabinet. It's a horrible mess from both parties (although No9 keeps telling me I am wrong about this).

b) This is quite hard to quantify. Do you mean the upfront cost? The ongoing cost? The cost in terms of money or in terms of jobs and prosperity?

c) I'm not sure where you get that there at 5 countries not in the WTO? There are more than that but it's irrelevant I guess. The largest non WTO country is Iran with the world's 27th highest GDP. I am not sure why this is an issue though? We would be in the WTO and thus surely could trade with any other country in the WTO under WTO rules? Obviously this is not as good as a free trade agreement though.

SB


"(although No9 keeps telling me I am wrong about this). "
I am not telling you, you are wrong, juts that you are not recognising the issues and how long they have been tearing the tories apart. I am also saying you are not looking at reality and what the tories have done to try and usurp the HoP.
The tories are NOT making a pigs ear of this, this has been designed by the RW and in the making for many years but the RW never thought the opportunity would be presented to them OR that they could get away with so few (including foreigners) donating so much to their cause. They would have pulled this stunt when John Major was PM if they thought they could get away with it.
The fact is that Mrs May got alost nowhere at dinner last night because she doesn't have the party behind her - look what the two factions want - it's chalk & cheese. While the likes of Ken Clarke & businesses tell us the size of the lorry parks to accommodate the UK leaving the customs union will create problems at ports, Mr Grayling says the government already has many sq miles of lorry parking at Manston.

As for the WTO, isn't the UK now in the WTO courtesy of it's membership of the EU &, when it leaves the EU will have to apply to the WTO for membership? And, although the brexiteers say the UK will get priority class treatement in joinign the EU as an independent nation the WTO has, so far, refused to confirm that OR what trade terms the Uk will get.
Very clearly the RW want a 'No Deal', when it comes to money, not only do the brexiteers demand Mrs May sanction £250 mn to prepare for 'no deal' brexit now. On top of that the ONS say this government has 'lost' £490 Bn

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/britain-490-billion-pounds-poore

How did they conceal that loss? - are you going to tell me they havent lost it , it is someone else?
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:50 - Oct 17 with 385 viewsGlasgowBlue

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 11:54 - Oct 17 by Libero

I wonder how those that voted to leave actually feel about it all now...


Relaxed.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:01 - Oct 17 with 380 viewsLibero

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:50 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue

Relaxed.


It's hard to understand how this could have gone any worse yet you're 'relaxed'? Fair enough.
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:03 - Oct 17 with 372 viewsJ2BLUE

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:01 - Oct 17 by Libero

It's hard to understand how this could have gone any worse yet you're 'relaxed'? Fair enough.


The EU were hardly going to agree to fair terms immediately were they? Delaying it allows remainers to cause maximum disruption and try to overturn the decision as well as send a message to other countries that it's virtually impossible to do a deal. Wait until we see the final deal before jumping the gun.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:04 - Oct 17 with 362 viewsGlasgowBlue

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:01 - Oct 17 by Libero

It's hard to understand how this could have gone any worse yet you're 'relaxed'? Fair enough.


Gone worse? Please expand.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:07 - Oct 17 with 361 viewsLibero

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:03 - Oct 17 by J2BLUE

The EU were hardly going to agree to fair terms immediately were they? Delaying it allows remainers to cause maximum disruption and try to overturn the decision as well as send a message to other countries that it's virtually impossible to do a deal. Wait until we see the final deal before jumping the gun.


They're not 'delaying' it, they just quite rightly won't settle for anything other than what they're owed.

You're right that it's 'virtually impossible to do a deal' - it's even more impossible when you're consistently exhibiting the level of incompetence we have over this whole shambles.

I look forward to leave voters clutching to the straws of the final deal instead of accepting they made a poor choice and hold a level of responsibility for this whole charade.
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:08 - Oct 17 with 358 viewsLibero

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:04 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue

Gone worse? Please expand.


You think it's gone well?!
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:14 - Oct 17 with 343 viewsJ2BLUE

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:07 - Oct 17 by Libero

They're not 'delaying' it, they just quite rightly won't settle for anything other than what they're owed.

You're right that it's 'virtually impossible to do a deal' - it's even more impossible when you're consistently exhibiting the level of incompetence we have over this whole shambles.

I look forward to leave voters clutching to the straws of the final deal instead of accepting they made a poor choice and hold a level of responsibility for this whole charade.


Yea that's definitely what i'm doing despite saying i'd be ok with a referendum on the final deal.

A divorce divides assets as well as liabilities. We only seem to be taking the liabilities.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:14 - Oct 17 with 343 viewsnoggin

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:07 - Oct 17 by Libero

They're not 'delaying' it, they just quite rightly won't settle for anything other than what they're owed.

You're right that it's 'virtually impossible to do a deal' - it's even more impossible when you're consistently exhibiting the level of incompetence we have over this whole shambles.

I look forward to leave voters clutching to the straws of the final deal instead of accepting they made a poor choice and hold a level of responsibility for this whole charade.


The only people who should be held responsible for the mess are the politicians who called the referendum and asked an ignorant public to vote.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:16 - Oct 17 with 341 viewsTonyj

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:04 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue

Gone worse? Please expand.


The absence of a clear position from the government is pretty bad.

Other than when to trigger article 50 (messed up), its the one thing we might have hoped for clarity on as its in our control.
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:19 - Oct 17 with 327 viewsArcher4721

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:14 - Oct 17 by noggin

The only people who should be held responsible for the mess are the politicians who called the referendum and asked an ignorant public to vote.


Exactly. And the party who now want it overturned could've stopped it in the first place!
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:24 - Oct 17 with 323 viewsNo9

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:03 - Oct 17 by J2BLUE

The EU were hardly going to agree to fair terms immediately were they? Delaying it allows remainers to cause maximum disruption and try to overturn the decision as well as send a message to other countries that it's virtually impossible to do a deal. Wait until we see the final deal before jumping the gun.


What are 'fair terms'?
Would you expect the UK to pay for what it has committed to or not?
Would you expect the EU to not pay for or, contribute to the UK's infrastructure, energy, R&D etc. when the Uk is no longer a member?

The UK, in particular those who vote to leave should understand 'Leave means Leave' not - we will leave this bit & keep that bit.
& BTW we want it for free
Whne we have a governemtn that is prepared to provide details we may be able to understand until then just keep watching the official EU site
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:36 - Oct 17 with 300 viewscaught-in-limbo

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 12:30 - Oct 17 by Tonyj

It's the difference between saying "there's a patio in the back yard" and "there's a dead body buried under the patio."

In short it's the difference between the press acting as a government mouthpiece (reporting) or holding the government to account on behalf of the people (exposing).

Weak stuff that.


Quite a strong argument you've put together there, Tony. Well done.

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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:53 - Oct 17 with 284 viewsimsureazzure

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:19 - Oct 17 by Archer4721

Exactly. And the party who now want it overturned could've stopped it in the first place!


And the leader of the opposition campaigned so fu kin weakly for something he was against.

Oh and the labour heartlands voted in huge swathes for it.
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'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:54 - Oct 17 with 281 viewsLibero

'Every time you think [Brexit] can’t get any worse, it does.' on 13:53 - Oct 17 by imsureazzure

And the leader of the opposition campaigned so fu kin weakly for something he was against.

Oh and the labour heartlands voted in huge swathes for it.


Well yeah, there are bellends on both sides.
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