| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:21 - Oct 18 with 5267 views | footers |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:11 - Oct 18 by J2BLUE |
That's a clever way of saying I have no proof so can't answer. |
Charitable organisations like this exist to exert influence. That's what he's buying, and I guess that's the middle ground between the positions. Some things may be good, some may be bad, some may be good for him, some may be bad for others.
It doesn't have to be some lizard-like conspiracy. People just see 'charity' and think it's a good thing. It's never that black and white.
Everyone welcomes people giving back to those less fortunate, but as one poster has already mentioned, it's a bit rich giving back some when it's come off the back of others' misfortune.
Soros has not given much to society in his previous business- he's taken from it. So sops like this are to be taken with a pinch of salt, at least. |  |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:24 - Oct 18 with 5265 views | J2BLUE |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:18 - Oct 18 by caught-in-limbo |
OK, let's go through it:
Proof of what?
Can't answer what? |
Unless you know what the 'something' is then saying he won't give unless there is something in it for him isn't fair. I understand your birthday example but it's a bit different to accusing someone you don't know personally of not giving unless he gets something out of it.
By the way I have no desire to defend Soros. He's just someone who is mentioned regularly like he's the devil by a certain group of people and i've never seen any evidence for any of the claims against him. |  |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:28 - Oct 18 with 5252 views | J2BLUE |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:21 - Oct 18 by footers |
Charitable organisations like this exist to exert influence. That's what he's buying, and I guess that's the middle ground between the positions. Some things may be good, some may be bad, some may be good for him, some may be bad for others.
It doesn't have to be some lizard-like conspiracy. People just see 'charity' and think it's a good thing. It's never that black and white.
Everyone welcomes people giving back to those less fortunate, but as one poster has already mentioned, it's a bit rich giving back some when it's come off the back of others' misfortune.
Soros has not given much to society in his previous business- he's taken from it. So sops like this are to be taken with a pinch of salt, at least. |
'Charitable organisations like this exist to exert influence. That's what he's buying, and I guess that's the middle ground between the positions. Some things may be good, some may be bad, some may be good for him, some may be bad for others.'
Agree entirely. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:33 - Oct 18 with 5241 views | vapour_trail |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:21 - Oct 18 by footers |
Charitable organisations like this exist to exert influence. That's what he's buying, and I guess that's the middle ground between the positions. Some things may be good, some may be bad, some may be good for him, some may be bad for others.
It doesn't have to be some lizard-like conspiracy. People just see 'charity' and think it's a good thing. It's never that black and white.
Everyone welcomes people giving back to those less fortunate, but as one poster has already mentioned, it's a bit rich giving back some when it's come off the back of others' misfortune.
Soros has not given much to society in his previous business- he's taken from it. So sops like this are to be taken with a pinch of salt, at least. |
Very well set out that, jreuser. |  |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:43 - Oct 18 with 5228 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:24 - Oct 18 by J2BLUE |
Unless you know what the 'something' is then saying he won't give unless there is something in it for him isn't fair. I understand your birthday example but it's a bit different to accusing someone you don't know personally of not giving unless he gets something out of it.
By the way I have no desire to defend Soros. He's just someone who is mentioned regularly like he's the devil by a certain group of people and i've never seen any evidence for any of the claims against him. |
I wouldn't accuse your mother of conditional giving, because I don't know anything about her. That said, I suspect your mother isn't a multibillionaire, I doubt she runs a hedge fund management business and I doubt she's ever betted in such large quantities against the pound and other currencies in an attempt to break national banks and do billions of pounds worth of damage - financial terrorism.
I know that Soros has. So it's fair for me to believe that his very small donation to the Catalan independence cause is conditional. I don't have to know what his motives are to think that he has a motive.
What claims have you heard about Soros for which you have no evidence?
He aided/caused the collapse the Bank of England in 1992 he also tried to do the same with the Japanese Yen (but lost a lot of money). I believe trying to ruin national economies is a particularly evil thing to do as it affects innocent elderly people's pensions amongst other things. [Post edited 18 Oct 2017 21:08]
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:46 - Oct 18 with 5223 views | J2BLUE |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:43 - Oct 18 by caught-in-limbo |
I wouldn't accuse your mother of conditional giving, because I don't know anything about her. That said, I suspect your mother isn't a multibillionaire, I doubt she runs a hedge fund management business and I doubt she's ever betted in such large quantities against the pound and other currencies in an attempt to break national banks and do billions of pounds worth of damage - financial terrorism.
I know that Soros has. So it's fair for me to believe that his very small donation to the Catalan independence cause is conditional. I don't have to know what his motives are to think that he has a motive.
What claims have you heard about Soros for which you have no evidence?
He aided/caused the collapse the Bank of England in 1992 he also tried to do the same with the Japanese Yen (but lost a lot of money). I believe trying to ruin national economies is a particularly evil thing to do as it affects innocent elderly people's pensions amongst other things. [Post edited 18 Oct 2017 21:08]
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Fair enough. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:52 - Oct 18 with 5212 views | footers |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:33 - Oct 18 by vapour_trail |
Very well set out that, jreuser. |
Cheers, mate. Quite diplomatic I thought, considering the post-work pints!
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 21:00 - Oct 18 with 5198 views | vapour_trail |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 20:52 - Oct 18 by footers |
Cheers, mate. Quite diplomatic I thought, considering the post-work pints!
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As someone who earns a living working in voluntary driven (rather than individual) charity, id like to challenge the bit that most people think charity is good.
Trust in charity is at an all time low, something for us all in the sector to address. And particularly on the right end of the political spectrum. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 21:02 - Oct 18 with 5195 views | footers |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 21:00 - Oct 18 by vapour_trail |
As someone who earns a living working in voluntary driven (rather than individual) charity, id like to challenge the bit that most people think charity is good.
Trust in charity is at an all time low, something for us all in the sector to address. And particularly on the right end of the political spectrum. |
Interesting. Why's that been the case do you think? And what can be done about it? | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 21:13 - Oct 18 with 5178 views | vapour_trail |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 21:02 - Oct 18 by footers |
Interesting. Why's that been the case do you think? And what can be done about it? |
Nothing. Genie out of the bottle. Respect for authority has been naturally undermined, everyone is a publisher.
Embrace it and move on, adjust, as a charity (my 'expertise) the challenge is just how to access people. Then it's about telling your story. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 22:31 - Oct 18 with 5149 views | blueislander |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 21:13 - Oct 18 by vapour_trail |
Nothing. Genie out of the bottle. Respect for authority has been naturally undermined, everyone is a publisher.
Embrace it and move on, adjust, as a charity (my 'expertise) the challenge is just how to access people. Then it's about telling your story. |
Soros is a polemic figure, and, no doubt , his motives in the way the money from his charitable trust is distributed is questionable. I am in Spain at the moment. I read the Spanish press every day whether I am here or not, and I have discussed the Cataluna situation with people who are politically aware, but not committed one way or the other. I have not read or heard of Soros giving money to the independ ence movement. Where have people gathered this information?
What do those who seem to doubt the motives of those billionaires who create charitable trusts think of the Bill Gates organisation? [Post edited 18 Oct 2017 22:35]
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 23:30 - Oct 18 with 5132 views | StokieBlue |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 18:03 - Oct 18 by SouthBucksBlue |
It's not really his money to give though is it. A simplified viewpoint is that unless you're selling a product or service which is of higher value to the acquirer than the cost to the producer then when you gain somebody loses. Hedge funds are just financial gambling instruments. When he made a billion from the pound, where did that money come from? Devalued pension funds, higher mortgage interest payments...?
Financial terrorist for me. An in my view unacceptable facet of a 'free market'. |
You are essentially saying the free market should be banned and everyone should win - this is impossible. If you are looking for someone to blame then blame the government who pegged a currency to another one at an artificial rate.
Your example is also incorrect - name a service where someone isn't looking for a profit - I would wager that no transaction would be perfectly balanced like you seem to want.
SB [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 7:18]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 06:04 - Oct 19 with 5094 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 22:31 - Oct 18 by blueislander |
Soros is a polemic figure, and, no doubt , his motives in the way the money from his charitable trust is distributed is questionable. I am in Spain at the moment. I read the Spanish press every day whether I am here or not, and I have discussed the Cataluna situation with people who are politically aware, but not committed one way or the other. I have not read or heard of Soros giving money to the independ ence movement. Where have people gathered this information?
What do those who seem to doubt the motives of those billionaires who create charitable trusts think of the Bill Gates organisation? [Post edited 18 Oct 2017 22:35]
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You're right, there is no mention of Soros in the Spanish press. Hardly any Spanish people (outside the world of finance) have even heard of him.
That said, Soros was reported in the Catalan paper, La Vanguardia in 2014 as having donated a small sum of money. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 07:46 - Oct 19 with 5081 views | blueislander |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 06:04 - Oct 19 by caught-in-limbo |
You're right, there is no mention of Soros in the Spanish press. Hardly any Spanish people (outside the world of finance) have even heard of him.
That said, Soros was reported in the Catalan paper, La Vanguardia in 2014 as having donated a small sum of money. |
A small sum in 2014: So absolutely nothing to do with the current crisis. | | | |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 08:31 - Oct 19 with 5070 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 07:46 - Oct 19 by blueislander |
A small sum in 2014: So absolutely nothing to do with the current crisis. |
The business of Catalan independence goes waaaaay back decades and decades and decades. Something that happened 3 years ago is relatively recent history.
I would say that it is impossible to determine whether the donation is connected to current events or not. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:05 - Oct 19 with 5054 views | blueislander |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 08:31 - Oct 19 by caught-in-limbo |
The business of Catalan independence goes waaaaay back decades and decades and decades. Something that happened 3 years ago is relatively recent history.
I would say that it is impossible to determine whether the donation is connected to current events or not. |
If Soros were serious in supporting independence for Cataluna , surelyhe would have made an important donation in the past few days. Either prior to the "referendum" or immediately after it?
What is notable is that the actions of Puigdemont and his allies has unified the rest of Spain, both among the populace , and the political classes. | | | |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:33 - Oct 19 with 5040 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:05 - Oct 19 by blueislander |
If Soros were serious in supporting independence for Cataluna , surelyhe would have made an important donation in the past few days. Either prior to the "referendum" or immediately after it?
What is notable is that the actions of Puigdemont and his allies has unified the rest of Spain, both among the populace , and the political classes. |
I don't think it's so much Puigdemont's actions which have unified Spain, I think it's Rajoy's response which has strengthened the Catalan independence cause. What I mean is this. Rajoy's response is to get Spain to rally around the Spanish flag. That works well for most of Spain. In the Basque Country it doesn't work. The Basques don't want to go back to the 80's and 90's but asking them to unite around a Spanish flag is an absolute non starter.
Today is a big day. Rajoy has given Puigdemont a deadline of today to declare independence or not today. Most commentators in Spain are considering the possibilities of either option for Rajoy - both options result in the Spanish Government acting in response (reacting) lawfully towards concluding events. I think Puigdemont will do nothing. Spain will then look to Rajoy to act, as opposed to react. He may trigger article 155, who knows. Either way, the appearance of his actions to the Catalans and any national press wanting to slant their reports in favour of the independence movement will be of Madrid's oppression over a supposed democratic independence-seeking Catalan public.
Puigdemont has some great advisors. Rajoy hasn't.
There's no need for Soros to give money directly to the Catalans yet. Giving money to media titles outside Spain to report Spanish aggression rather than unconstitutional Catalan behaviour is a far better use of his money. Is he doing that? Know idea. But his money to the independence parties directly can wait. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 16:13]
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:42 - Oct 19 with 5037 views | StokieBlue |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:33 - Oct 19 by caught-in-limbo |
I don't think it's so much Puigdemont's actions which have unified Spain, I think it's Rajoy's response which has strengthened the Catalan independence cause. What I mean is this. Rajoy's response is to get Spain to rally around the Spanish flag. That works well for most of Spain. In the Basque Country it doesn't work. The Basques don't want to go back to the 80's and 90's but asking them to unite around a Spanish flag is an absolute non starter.
Today is a big day. Rajoy has given Puigdemont a deadline of today to declare independence or not today. Most commentators in Spain are considering the possibilities of either option for Rajoy - both options result in the Spanish Government acting in response (reacting) lawfully towards concluding events. I think Puigdemont will do nothing. Spain will then look to Rajoy to act, as opposed to react. He may trigger article 155, who knows. Either way, the appearance of his actions to the Catalans and any national press wanting to slant their reports in favour of the independence movement will be of Madrid's oppression over a supposed democratic independence-seeking Catalan public.
Puigdemont has some great advisors. Rajoy hasn't.
There's no need for Soros to give money directly to the Catalans yet. Giving money to media titles outside Spain to report Spanish aggression rather than unconstitutional Catalan behaviour is a far better use of his money. Is he doing that? Know idea. But his money to the independence parties directly can wait. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 16:13]
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Surely it can all be sorted by legally voting to change the constitution and then having a legal referendum (non-advisory) which would then settle the issue once and for all.
The fact that Spain won't allow this reflect very badly on them in my opinion. Why deny people the chance to vote on such an issue? Hiding behind a constitution which could be amended is childish - it doesn't address the issue at all.
What is the rationale behind not even discussing a legal referendum and change to the constitution?
SB [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 9:45]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:48 - Oct 19 with 5030 views | WeWereZombies |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:42 - Oct 19 by StokieBlue |
Surely it can all be sorted by legally voting to change the constitution and then having a legal referendum (non-advisory) which would then settle the issue once and for all.
The fact that Spain won't allow this reflect very badly on them in my opinion. Why deny people the chance to vote on such an issue? Hiding behind a constitution which could be amended is childish - it doesn't address the issue at all.
What is the rationale behind not even discussing a legal referendum and change to the constitution?
SB [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 9:45]
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How can I put this politely? You must know Spain's recent history and why many Spaniards feel the need to put the constitution forward as the the cornerstone of a state recovering from Franco's version of Fascism? They, and many outside observers, see danger in any alteration to the constitution in terms of sliding back into the mire they have only just clambered out of. |  |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:05 - Oct 19 with 5023 views | StokieBlue |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:48 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies |
How can I put this politely? You must know Spain's recent history and why many Spaniards feel the need to put the constitution forward as the the cornerstone of a state recovering from Franco's version of Fascism? They, and many outside observers, see danger in any alteration to the constitution in terms of sliding back into the mire they have only just clambered out of. |
I am sure your knowledge of Spanish history is far better than mine but it's been 42 years since Franco died and whilst there are still sensibilities around those awful times the Spain of today, a full member of the EU and EUR is nothing like the Spain of 1975.
Is that still recent history? Where is the cutoff? Is nobody in Spain allowed to mention constitutional change for the next 100 years? Can you be specific about what "mire" they could slip back into?
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:20 - Oct 19 with 5012 views | WeWereZombies |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:05 - Oct 19 by StokieBlue |
I am sure your knowledge of Spanish history is far better than mine but it's been 42 years since Franco died and whilst there are still sensibilities around those awful times the Spain of today, a full member of the EU and EUR is nothing like the Spain of 1975.
Is that still recent history? Where is the cutoff? Is nobody in Spain allowed to mention constitutional change for the next 100 years? Can you be specific about what "mire" they could slip back into?
SB |
Median age of a Spaniard is 43 years:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/275398/median-age-of-the-population-in-spain
so the restoration of democracy is within many peoples lifetime, recent history in my book.
I'm no expert in Spanish history but I did live on Mallorca as a child for a year or so (during Franco's reign, thanks Dad) and even at eight witnessed tramps being beaten up by the Guardia Civil. And we witnessed recently that they still do go in heavy handed. The culture of Spain has always had a 'fiery' element to it and the habits of the Franco era did not disappear overnight, may never disappear. One thing I would say is that each time I visit Spain, and more so than any other nation, is how prosperity does seem to advance. I probably could find a shanty town still if I was tasked to but I saw them openly on the outskirts of Madrid in 1980.
So the mire is, I would have thought obviously, the grinding poverty and summary justice (except that it was often criminality given an official sanction) of the Franco years. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:21 - Oct 19 with 5012 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:48 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies |
How can I put this politely? You must know Spain's recent history and why many Spaniards feel the need to put the constitution forward as the the cornerstone of a state recovering from Franco's version of Fascism? They, and many outside observers, see danger in any alteration to the constitution in terms of sliding back into the mire they have only just clambered out of. |
This is very true.
In addition to that there are other details which have some relevance. One of my students, while not Catalan himself, but Basque, and is pro independence for both autonomous regions. We were watching a British TV news report (from either the BBC or Sky News). There was an elderly couple walking to the polling station and the reporter said that the couple had waited 39 years for this moment to vote for independence - the implication being that they have been denied the opportunity to do so since 1978. The reality (according to my student at least) is that Catalunia approved the constitution in 1978 with a higher rate of approval than any other region in Spain. Additionally, there have been about 35 legal and constitutionally-binding occasions where Catalans have been able to express their wish for independence - either via voting for independence parties in local and national elections and other occasions. In other words the news report was a half truth at best and a vast exaggeration of Madrid oppression.
Of course, one would have to check to see how truthful these two statements are. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:28 - Oct 19 with 5000 views | StokieBlue |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:20 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies |
Median age of a Spaniard is 43 years:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/275398/median-age-of-the-population-in-spain
so the restoration of democracy is within many peoples lifetime, recent history in my book.
I'm no expert in Spanish history but I did live on Mallorca as a child for a year or so (during Franco's reign, thanks Dad) and even at eight witnessed tramps being beaten up by the Guardia Civil. And we witnessed recently that they still do go in heavy handed. The culture of Spain has always had a 'fiery' element to it and the habits of the Franco era did not disappear overnight, may never disappear. One thing I would say is that each time I visit Spain, and more so than any other nation, is how prosperity does seem to advance. I probably could find a shanty town still if I was tasked to but I saw them openly on the outskirts of Madrid in 1980.
So the mire is, I would have thought obviously, the grinding poverty and summary justice (except that it was often criminality given an official sanction) of the Franco years. |
Thanks for the summary.
I still fail to see a correlation between Catalonia leaving and the reintroduction of grinding poverty - Spain is a richer and fuller democracy now surely? Why do you think they would slip back into that mire?
SB | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:28 - Oct 19 with 4999 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 09:42 - Oct 19 by StokieBlue |
Surely it can all be sorted by legally voting to change the constitution and then having a legal referendum (non-advisory) which would then settle the issue once and for all.
The fact that Spain won't allow this reflect very badly on them in my opinion. Why deny people the chance to vote on such an issue? Hiding behind a constitution which could be amended is childish - it doesn't address the issue at all.
What is the rationale behind not even discussing a legal referendum and change to the constitution?
SB [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 9:45]
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There is definitely reluctance by Spain to assist in the break-up of the country.
You say "The fact that Spain won't allow this reflect very badly on them in my opinion". There are legal - albeit lengthy - processes in place to allow for changes in the constitution. I'm not sure any government in Spain can not allow it. I'd be interested to know where you've got that from, because it's not what I have heard. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 10:33]
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:31 - Oct 19 with 4996 views | StokieBlue |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:28 - Oct 19 by caught-in-limbo |
There is definitely reluctance by Spain to assist in the break-up of the country.
You say "The fact that Spain won't allow this reflect very badly on them in my opinion". There are legal - albeit lengthy - processes in place to allow for changes in the constitution. I'm not sure any government in Spain can not allow it. I'd be interested to know where you've got that from, because it's not what I have heard. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 10:33]
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Thanks.
I meant that haven't the government refused to even discuss Catalonia independence?
SB | |
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