| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:35 - Oct 19 with 2764 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:31 - Oct 19 by StokieBlue |
Thanks.
I meant that haven't the government refused to even discuss Catalonia independence?
SB |
Yes, outside the legal process which is in place in order to amend the constitution, they have. |  |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:37 - Oct 19 with 2758 views | StokieBlue |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:35 - Oct 19 by caught-in-limbo |
Yes, outside the legal process which is in place in order to amend the constitution, they have. |
Is it possible for Catalonia to get an amendment through or would it be voted out by the other states? I am not sure how the Spanish parliament works in such cases.
SB |  |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:43 - Oct 19 with 2755 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:37 - Oct 19 by StokieBlue |
Is it possible for Catalonia to get an amendment through or would it be voted out by the other states? I am not sure how the Spanish parliament works in such cases.
SB |
That's a very pertinent question. The answer to it should also be easily available - but I don't know it.
I'll certainly ask my student who's in the know next week. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:48 - Oct 19 with 2752 views | WeWereZombies |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:28 - Oct 19 by StokieBlue |
Thanks for the summary.
I still fail to see a correlation between Catalonia leaving and the reintroduction of grinding poverty - Spain is a richer and fuller democracy now surely? Why do you think they would slip back into that mire?
SB |
As was said about their football, before they spoiled it by winning the World Cup, and many feel still holds politically - Spain is quite useless at fighting outside it's borders but once it's a clash between Spaniard and Spaniard they can do it better than anyone else. Part of the upsurge in passion for Catalan independence comes from a feeling of being held back by the rest of Spain in economic terms (see also the Berlusconi aided push for Padania, although the Catalan movement seems to lean left rather than right).
The unemployment rate for the nation last year was 18.5%, terrible but still an improvement on the 25% it has been at times. That is a symptom of underlying fragility in Spain, the industrial strength resides mainly in the north but further south, aided by technology and globalisation of markets, agriculture has been responsible for much of that increase in prosperity I mentioned in my last post. However, climate change and disruption to food pricing or transport could diminish those gains and civil war would wipe them out. |  |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:54 - Oct 19 with 2745 views | StokieBlue |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:48 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies |
As was said about their football, before they spoiled it by winning the World Cup, and many feel still holds politically - Spain is quite useless at fighting outside it's borders but once it's a clash between Spaniard and Spaniard they can do it better than anyone else. Part of the upsurge in passion for Catalan independence comes from a feeling of being held back by the rest of Spain in economic terms (see also the Berlusconi aided push for Padania, although the Catalan movement seems to lean left rather than right).
The unemployment rate for the nation last year was 18.5%, terrible but still an improvement on the 25% it has been at times. That is a symptom of underlying fragility in Spain, the industrial strength resides mainly in the north but further south, aided by technology and globalisation of markets, agriculture has been responsible for much of that increase in prosperity I mentioned in my last post. However, climate change and disruption to food pricing or transport could diminish those gains and civil war would wipe them out. |
A lot of truth in there, I've spent a quite a bit of time in Andalucia and they are struggling with extremely high youth unemployment (I believe it was >50% a few years ago).
I still don't see how any of it leads to another civil war though? There may be anger if Catalonia left Spain but would it really spill over into military conflict? I guess from my visits to Spain I never got that impression - I thought the far more likely outcome would be a broader break-up of Spain by region rather than one region looking to dominate others militarily.
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 11:02 - Oct 19 with 2741 views | WeWereZombies |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:54 - Oct 19 by StokieBlue |
A lot of truth in there, I've spent a quite a bit of time in Andalucia and they are struggling with extremely high youth unemployment (I believe it was >50% a few years ago).
I still don't see how any of it leads to another civil war though? There may be anger if Catalonia left Spain but would it really spill over into military conflict? I guess from my visits to Spain I never got that impression - I thought the far more likely outcome would be a broader break-up of Spain by region rather than one region looking to dominate others militarily.
SB |
Would there be civil war? Hopefully not but not too many predicted the savage wars in the Balkans at the time the Berlin Wall came down. If the worst came to the worst things would probably split on ideological divides as well as geographical ones rather than Castile and León trying to impose it's will from a central seat of power militarily.
Sorry c-i-l if you are reading this, not comfortable to think about but I'm sure you know this and more already and have your own take on it. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 14:25 - Oct 19 with 2711 views | blueislander |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 10:43 - Oct 19 by caught-in-limbo |
That's a very pertinent question. The answer to it should also be easily available - but I don't know it.
I'll certainly ask my student who's in the know next week. |
Going back to one of your earlier posts, you said about the Basques wanting independence. I can assure you that if there were a referendum there today, the vast majority would vote to remain in Spain. There is now very little appetite for independence . Watching the Catalan crisis, you have to wonder how an independent Cataluna could survive. They would be outside the EU , and would have huge difficulty as a non recognised state in making any trade agreements. Their tourist industry would be decimated. Literally hundreds of companies have moved their registered offices outside the region, including some very major ones, and this would have an enormous impact on their tax income. The points about democracy being relatively recent is relevant. The attempted coupin 1981 is still a recent memory. |  | | |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 15:00 - Oct 19 with 2698 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 14:25 - Oct 19 by blueislander |
Going back to one of your earlier posts, you said about the Basques wanting independence. I can assure you that if there were a referendum there today, the vast majority would vote to remain in Spain. There is now very little appetite for independence . Watching the Catalan crisis, you have to wonder how an independent Cataluna could survive. They would be outside the EU , and would have huge difficulty as a non recognised state in making any trade agreements. Their tourist industry would be decimated. Literally hundreds of companies have moved their registered offices outside the region, including some very major ones, and this would have an enormous impact on their tax income. The points about democracy being relatively recent is relevant. The attempted coupin 1981 is still a recent memory. |
I'm about to go back to work. I've just read the first two lines of your post. I DID NOT say the Basques wanted independence.
I'll read the rest later and add more in an hour or so. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 15:42 - Oct 19 with 2683 views | blueislander |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 15:00 - Oct 19 by caught-in-limbo |
I'm about to go back to work. I've just read the first two lines of your post. I DID NOT say the Basques wanted independence.
I'll read the rest later and add more in an hour or so. |
Having re-read your post, I apologise. I did misconsrue what you posted. The number of Spanish flags flying from terraces here in Madridis quite remarkable. I don't know whether this is so in other parts of Spain. I was in Bilbao yesterday, and didn't see any, but that is hardly surprising! | | | |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 16:35 - Oct 19 with 2668 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 15:42 - Oct 19 by blueislander |
Having re-read your post, I apologise. I did misconsrue what you posted. The number of Spanish flags flying from terraces here in Madridis quite remarkable. I don't know whether this is so in other parts of Spain. I was in Bilbao yesterday, and didn't see any, but that is hardly surprising! |
Thank you.
I can think of one Spanish flag in San Sebastián, at the Ministry of Defence building.
There are also Spanish flags flying outside Guardia Civil properties across the Basque Country but their locations are usually very discrete.
I will stress for the benefit of those who also may have misinterpreted by comment on page 2 of this thread. The vast majority of Basques (irrespective of hoe Basque they feel) do not want to return to the 1980's and 90's.
But the idea of rallying around the Spanish flag is a dream which exists only outside Euskadi. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 17:05]
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 17:04 - Oct 19 with 2653 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 11:02 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies |
Would there be civil war? Hopefully not but not too many predicted the savage wars in the Balkans at the time the Berlin Wall came down. If the worst came to the worst things would probably split on ideological divides as well as geographical ones rather than Castile and León trying to impose it's will from a central seat of power militarily.
Sorry c-i-l if you are reading this, not comfortable to think about but I'm sure you know this and more already and have your own take on it. |
I agree with your comments. In theory, the idea of civil war in the country is unimaginable. In reality, the autonomous regions DONT feel Spanish and for that reason the stability of the country will always be fragile. The acts of terrorism in the Basque Country were very real and there are still very independence-minded communities in the Basque Country but particularly in Gipuzkoa where I live.
The fervour for independence in Catalunia is very dangerous. There are not many cool heads on intelligent people in the Junts coalition at the moment and there is a very passionate, reactionary ambience around this topic right now. You only need a couple of nutters to do something very stupid on either side to upset things dramatically.
I think the overwhelming majority of people in Spain would agree with this, and possibly even the majority of people living in Catalunia. However, I have my own take in believing that the fragile nature of Spanish unity could equally easily be broken by interests outside the peninsula. I think it is unlikely, but it is just as easy. Most people fail to consider this because in their lives, Spanish problems have been very Spanish affairs and the rest of the world has generally looked on. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 17:23 - Oct 19 with 2641 views | WeWereZombies |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 17:04 - Oct 19 by caught-in-limbo |
I agree with your comments. In theory, the idea of civil war in the country is unimaginable. In reality, the autonomous regions DONT feel Spanish and for that reason the stability of the country will always be fragile. The acts of terrorism in the Basque Country were very real and there are still very independence-minded communities in the Basque Country but particularly in Gipuzkoa where I live.
The fervour for independence in Catalunia is very dangerous. There are not many cool heads on intelligent people in the Junts coalition at the moment and there is a very passionate, reactionary ambience around this topic right now. You only need a couple of nutters to do something very stupid on either side to upset things dramatically.
I think the overwhelming majority of people in Spain would agree with this, and possibly even the majority of people living in Catalunia. However, I have my own take in believing that the fragile nature of Spanish unity could equally easily be broken by interests outside the peninsula. I think it is unlikely, but it is just as easy. Most people fail to consider this because in their lives, Spanish problems have been very Spanish affairs and the rest of the world has generally looked on. |
The rest of the World mainly looked on but a few committed (and some committable) individuals did take an interest between 1936 and 1939. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 17:32 - Oct 19 with 2635 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 17:23 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies |
The rest of the World mainly looked on but a few committed (and some committable) individuals did take an interest between 1936 and 1939. |
Actually, I strongly recommend a visit to the town of Gernika, not just for its global fame but also for a little bit of Basque history and an introduction to the ancient Basque laws or fueros and the Tree of Guernica. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 17:38]
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 17:52 - Oct 19 with 2628 views | WeWereZombies |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 17:32 - Oct 19 by caught-in-limbo |
Actually, I strongly recommend a visit to the town of Gernika, not just for its global fame but also for a little bit of Basque history and an introduction to the ancient Basque laws or fueros and the Tree of Guernica. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 17:38]
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Northern Spain is on my list - or should I say Euskadi and Galicia. Catalonia I have been to a number of times eveer sine 1962 but further west I've been driven through San Sebastian once thirty seven years ago and that's it. Need to see the Gugenheim in Bilbao, walk a bit of the trail to Santaigo de Compastela and do some of the Picos D'Europa and yes, Guernica (apologies for the Castillian spelling), too. But when that vitamin D deficiency that kicks in during a Scottish winter gets critical it will probably see me jetting off to Jamaica once Burns Night has passed if I can find a reasonably priced flight. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 18:02 - Oct 19 with 2626 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 17:52 - Oct 19 by WeWereZombies |
Northern Spain is on my list - or should I say Euskadi and Galicia. Catalonia I have been to a number of times eveer sine 1962 but further west I've been driven through San Sebastian once thirty seven years ago and that's it. Need to see the Gugenheim in Bilbao, walk a bit of the trail to Santaigo de Compastela and do some of the Picos D'Europa and yes, Guernica (apologies for the Castillian spelling), too. But when that vitamin D deficiency that kicks in during a Scottish winter gets critical it will probably see me jetting off to Jamaica once Burns Night has passed if I can find a reasonably priced flight. |
All great places to visit. Feel free to ask for jatetxea tips in Donostia just before you come over. | |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 19:08 - Oct 19 with 2612 views | BorisOrTrevor |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 16:56 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue |
You didn't reply to the question of what is in it for him to do as you are claiming.
SB |
It's a tax dodge for one thing. |  |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 19:08 - Oct 19 with 2606 views | SpruceMoose |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 19:08 - Oct 19 by BorisOrTrevor |
It's a tax dodge for one thing. |
How so? |  |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 19:58 - Oct 19 with 2588 views | StokieBlue |
| Soros wasn't the most popular with some of our previous posters on 19:08 - Oct 19 by BorisOrTrevor |
It's a tax dodge for one thing. |
It's not though is it?
He's not made 18bn this year and giving to charity 90% of your fortune is a rather idioic attempt at dodging tax.
Good effort though, you'll nail it next time.
SB | |
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