| Marcus Evans and our debt 07:56 - Oct 23 with 17882 views | TLA |
Some Norwich fans yesterday asked why we weren't protesting every week against Marcus Evans and it made me think a bit.
We do seem grateful and I guess he stepped in when we were in a really bad way and injected some cash.
I know that he bought about £35m of debt for £8m and the rest was written off. I also know that he can't sell that £27m of written off debt on.
What I don't know is if he can sell all of the debt loaded since then. He invested £12m initially into transfer funds and the money the ME Group put in each year (to balance the books) is loaded on to our debt to the company, rather than a personal investment.
Can he sell the new debt on? If so, that would require someone to buy £70-80m of his debt before considering what other money they need to invest. With no assets, it doesn't make us an attractive purchase.
If this is correct, he's in a no lose situation really. If he can keep the debt to ME Group stable with player sales (as in recent years), he either gets it back at some point by selling the club or it doesn't go up much and he gets the advertising etc.
I doubt he would write off the debt in order to sell the club so he may as well maintain things, hope for a miracle promotion and look to sell players to keep the company investment where it is. It means there's no need for him to sell.
Or have I misunderstood it all? |  | | |  |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 08:21 - Oct 23 with 10955 views | Radlett_blue |
Who would want to buy the new debt? If Evans want to sell Town (& I think he would if someone offered him enough) he would pretty much have to write off what he has "invested " in town over the years, although then a debt free Town could be worth around £30m at my guess. Of course, we don't know what Evans would consider an acceptable price, or exactly what anyone else might pay. His strategy seems to be to put in enough each year to ensure that Town don't go down, which would make the selling price a fair bit lower. |  |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 08:59 - Oct 23 with 10812 views | Guthrum |
I think that "jogging along as close to break-even as possible" approach is, indeed, pretty much where we are. Sadly, when funds were, initially, available, they weren't spent by the best people.
On the question of protest, I don't think ITFC is anywhere near comparable to Blackpool/Charlton/Blackburn/Portsmouth, where incompetence and/or rapaciousness has led to them plumetting down the divisions (in some cases to near extinction). Evans at least maintains things at their current level. Promotion is an aspiration, not a right which can be demanded (despite what West Ham fans think). |  |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:07 - Oct 23 with 10765 views | Pinewoodblue |
Don't think it is as simple as that. None of the debt he purchased from Noreich Union was written off and for the first few years unpaid interest on the debt was rolled over and added to the sum owed.
I know that we( he) owe the money to another part of his empire but all the debt is still there. Evans needs to have a plan he needs to write off as much of the debt as he can, without harming the book value of the rest of the empire, he then may have something he can sell to another mug.
The 'old' Ipswich Town company still owns something like 12% of the club and somehow he needs to gain full ownership. It was a good idea to let supporters still own a bit of the club, it made the takeover more acceptable , but think it is time to wind that company up. The shares many of us hold don't really have anything other than sentimental value . |  |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:08 - Oct 23 with 10757 views | hype313 |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 08:59 - Oct 23 by Guthrum |
I think that "jogging along as close to break-even as possible" approach is, indeed, pretty much where we are. Sadly, when funds were, initially, available, they weren't spent by the best people.
On the question of protest, I don't think ITFC is anywhere near comparable to Blackpool/Charlton/Blackburn/Portsmouth, where incompetence and/or rapaciousness has led to them plumetting down the divisions (in some cases to near extinction). Evans at least maintains things at their current level. Promotion is an aspiration, not a right which can be demanded (despite what West Ham fans think). |
Totally agree, but we are clearly not making progress, last season was flirting with relegation, and whilst we had a positive start, we are now finding our level again, I just think you can only keep flirting for a while before we fall, at which point things will get really toxic. |  |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:09 - Oct 23 with 10749 views | blue75 |
I believe and I’m sure if I’m wrong I’ll be corrected! When Evans brought our club there was a clause in the agreement that if he sold up, he had to leave the club debt free. He’s only run the debt up to offset his taxes I think. |  |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:27 - Oct 23 with 10695 views | PhilTWTD |
The loans made weren't made with the intention of them ever being paid back. Loaning is merely the most efficient way of injecting cash. The situation would be much the same as at Bolton a couple of years ago, the debt written off - or largely written off - before a sale could be made. |  | | |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:30 - Oct 23 with 10655 views | Radlett_blue |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:07 - Oct 23 by Pinewoodblue |
Don't think it is as simple as that. None of the debt he purchased from Noreich Union was written off and for the first few years unpaid interest on the debt was rolled over and added to the sum owed.
I know that we( he) owe the money to another part of his empire but all the debt is still there. Evans needs to have a plan he needs to write off as much of the debt as he can, without harming the book value of the rest of the empire, he then may have something he can sell to another mug.
The 'old' Ipswich Town company still owns something like 12% of the club and somehow he needs to gain full ownership. It was a good idea to let supporters still own a bit of the club, it made the takeover more acceptable , but think it is time to wind that company up. The shares many of us hold don't really have anything other than sentimental value . |
Like many others, I am still a shareholder in the "old" plc & while I never expected to get anything back from my "investment", I think the PLC's stake is still there largely because Evans saw no need to spend the money to buy us out, rather than any altrustic motives. | |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:35 - Oct 23 with 10613 views | factual_blue |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 08:59 - Oct 23 by Guthrum |
I think that "jogging along as close to break-even as possible" approach is, indeed, pretty much where we are. Sadly, when funds were, initially, available, they weren't spent by the best people.
On the question of protest, I don't think ITFC is anywhere near comparable to Blackpool/Charlton/Blackburn/Portsmouth, where incompetence and/or rapaciousness has led to them plumetting down the divisions (in some cases to near extinction). Evans at least maintains things at their current level. Promotion is an aspiration, not a right which can be demanded (despite what West Ham fans think). |
I would be wary of letting Karl Oyston draw that inference that 'incompetence/rapaciousness' applies to him. Owen Oyston, however, was convicted of rape. |  |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:38 - Oct 23 with 10599 views | PhilTWTD |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 08:59 - Oct 23 by Guthrum |
I think that "jogging along as close to break-even as possible" approach is, indeed, pretty much where we are. Sadly, when funds were, initially, available, they weren't spent by the best people.
On the question of protest, I don't think ITFC is anywhere near comparable to Blackpool/Charlton/Blackburn/Portsmouth, where incompetence and/or rapaciousness has led to them plumetting down the divisions (in some cases to near extinction). Evans at least maintains things at their current level. Promotion is an aspiration, not a right which can be demanded (despite what West Ham fans think). |
That isn't really the case re being close to breaking even. The only year the club broke even was the year Mings was sold in the final few days of the financial year and but for that sale would have made the same £6m-ish loss as other recent seasons. The investment is high by historical standards, just not by current standards in this league unfortunately. | | | |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:41 - Oct 23 with 10564 views | WeWereZombies |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:07 - Oct 23 by Pinewoodblue |
Don't think it is as simple as that. None of the debt he purchased from Noreich Union was written off and for the first few years unpaid interest on the debt was rolled over and added to the sum owed.
I know that we( he) owe the money to another part of his empire but all the debt is still there. Evans needs to have a plan he needs to write off as much of the debt as he can, without harming the book value of the rest of the empire, he then may have something he can sell to another mug.
The 'old' Ipswich Town company still owns something like 12% of the club and somehow he needs to gain full ownership. It was a good idea to let supporters still own a bit of the club, it made the takeover more acceptable , but think it is time to wind that company up. The shares many of us hold don't really have anything other than sentimental value . |
It comes to a pretty pass when even sentimental value gets eroded, I would happily accept £200.01 for my shares, might even think about £199.99... |  |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:46 - Oct 23 with 10518 views | PhilTWTD |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:30 - Oct 23 by Radlett_blue |
Like many others, I am still a shareholder in the "old" plc & while I never expected to get anything back from my "investment", I think the PLC's stake is still there largely because Evans saw no need to spend the money to buy us out, rather than any altrustic motives. |
Don't think it made much difference from a financial sense, was largely a symbolic thing, David Sheepshanks wanted existing shareholders to retain some stake in the club. | | | |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 10:20 - Oct 23 with 10396 views | north_stand77 |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:41 - Oct 23 by WeWereZombies |
It comes to a pretty pass when even sentimental value gets eroded, I would happily accept £200.01 for my shares, might even think about £199.99... |
I too have some shares to that value but someone close to me put in 5k and will probably never get anything back sadly.
Would be nice if the club said to him that they would give him a couple of free season tickets every so often. It would be no skin of their nose as there are so many empty seats anyway and would indicate that we hadn't been forgotten entirely! |  | | |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 10:57 - Oct 23 with 10269 views | hampstead_blue |
Talking to friend in the game, an agent and scout, clubs in the Champ have almost zero value.
Barnsley is for ale for £1. All you need do is promise to put in a stipulated sum. The owner will right off his debt.
We'd be the same. The club is worth very little simply down to the fact that the business model is awful! Who runs a business in the way football works? You need to be a benefactor NOT an investor. Or you need to be seeking very high levels of risk.
I don't think Evans is all that bad.
If we had a risk seeker own the club they would load it up with debt, buy lots of players and then if we didn't get promoted we would have to sell them all for bobbins and get relegated a few times.
Blackpool, QPR, Notts Forest, Southampton, the list is long.
We are in a good place with Evans. At least I think we are. We can only guess as to his 'real' motive and plan. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 10:59 - Oct 23 with 10242 views | TLA |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:27 - Oct 23 by PhilTWTD |
The loans made weren't made with the intention of them ever being paid back. Loaning is merely the most efficient way of injecting cash. The situation would be much the same as at Bolton a couple of years ago, the debt written off - or largely written off - before a sale could be made. |
I knew the initial debt that ME purchased could not be sold and that he could only sell on the £8m that he used to purchase it. I wondered about the debt added since - if ME would genuinely write that off, rather than try to recuperate as much as possible through a sale, that would be good news. However, I then wonder what's in it for ME to plod along, adding debt to his company with no chance of getting it back.
Radeltt said maybe he'd ask for £30m - that would pay back some of his 'investment'. Before that kind of sale, would he sell the training ground, maximise player sales and try to get back whatever he can?
I think the thing is, I just can't see what's in it for ME to keep going as he is. | | | |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:08 - Oct 23 with 10198 views | Radlett_blue |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 10:57 - Oct 23 by hampstead_blue |
Talking to friend in the game, an agent and scout, clubs in the Champ have almost zero value.
Barnsley is for ale for £1. All you need do is promise to put in a stipulated sum. The owner will right off his debt.
We'd be the same. The club is worth very little simply down to the fact that the business model is awful! Who runs a business in the way football works? You need to be a benefactor NOT an investor. Or you need to be seeking very high levels of risk.
I don't think Evans is all that bad.
If we had a risk seeker own the club they would load it up with debt, buy lots of players and then if we didn't get promoted we would have to sell them all for bobbins and get relegated a few times.
Blackpool, QPR, Notts Forest, Southampton, the list is long.
We are in a good place with Evans. At least I think we are. We can only guess as to his 'real' motive and plan. |
Some clubs in the Championship aren't worth much e.g. Barnsley, but Nottingham Forest's new owner allegedly paid £50m this summer. I don't think Town are worth near that, but a debt free Town should be worth over £10m. However, any sale is up to Evans & of course we don't know how much a new owner would be prepared to invest int he squad. | |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:20 - Oct 23 with 10140 views | hampstead_blue |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:08 - Oct 23 by Radlett_blue |
Some clubs in the Championship aren't worth much e.g. Barnsley, but Nottingham Forest's new owner allegedly paid £50m this summer. I don't think Town are worth near that, but a debt free Town should be worth over £10m. However, any sale is up to Evans & of course we don't know how much a new owner would be prepared to invest int he squad. |
The context of the "some clubs are not worth much" is that the debt pretty much write off most of the value. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:31 - Oct 23 with 10095 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 09:46 - Oct 23 by PhilTWTD |
Don't think it made much difference from a financial sense, was largely a symbolic thing, David Sheepshanks wanted existing shareholders to retain some stake in the club. |
Didn't he loan stock stay with the PLC and Evans extends a loan each year to cover the interest due. Not sure what happens when loan stock matures. | |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:38 - Oct 23 with 10043 views | PhilTWTD |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 10:59 - Oct 23 by TLA |
I knew the initial debt that ME purchased could not be sold and that he could only sell on the £8m that he used to purchase it. I wondered about the debt added since - if ME would genuinely write that off, rather than try to recuperate as much as possible through a sale, that would be good news. However, I then wonder what's in it for ME to plod along, adding debt to his company with no chance of getting it back.
Radeltt said maybe he'd ask for £30m - that would pay back some of his 'investment'. Before that kind of sale, would he sell the training ground, maximise player sales and try to get back whatever he can?
I think the thing is, I just can't see what's in it for ME to keep going as he is. |
Not the first person to ask that; what's ME getting out of sticking £6m-ish in a year to remain mid-table while periodically flirting with one end of the division or the other?
Whatever happens, not really any way he's going to get it back other than after promotion given that the sums in the Premier League are so high now, and that was never really the intention. Training ground's not worth much in the overall scheme, part of it was moved between ME companies - for tax reasons - for £1.32 million a few years back. | | | |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:40 - Oct 23 with 10019 views | PhilTWTD |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:31 - Oct 23 by Pinewoodblue |
Didn't he loan stock stay with the PLC and Evans extends a loan each year to cover the interest due. Not sure what happens when loan stock matures. |
Wasn't that the loan notes taken out in the early 2000s, which are only a couple of million? I don't think the PLC does much other than service those. | | | |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:41 - Oct 23 with 10006 views | Radlett_blue |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:20 - Oct 23 by hampstead_blue |
The context of the "some clubs are not worth much" is that the debt pretty much write off most of the value. |
Most football clubs - especially Championship clubs - lose money each year so run up debts, usually to their owners. When an owner wants out, he usually writes off the debt as a debt free club will have some value. | |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:41 - Oct 23 with 10002 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:40 - Oct 23 by PhilTWTD |
Wasn't that the loan notes taken out in the early 2000s, which are only a couple of million? I don't think the PLC does much other than service those. |
as the ones..still a debt that isn't Marcus Evans. | |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:43 - Oct 23 with 9990 views | PhilTWTD |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 11:41 - Oct 23 by Pinewoodblue |
as the ones..still a debt that isn't Marcus Evans. |
They are, but peanuts in the overall picture. | | | |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 12:21 - Oct 23 with 9824 views | monty_radio |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 10:20 - Oct 23 by north_stand77 |
I too have some shares to that value but someone close to me put in 5k and will probably never get anything back sadly.
Would be nice if the club said to him that they would give him a couple of free season tickets every so often. It would be no skin of their nose as there are so many empty seats anyway and would indicate that we hadn't been forgotten entirely! |
I'd settle for a place in a platinum priority queue to get my half-time cuppa. | |
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| Marcus Evans and our debt on 12:27 - Oct 23 with 9775 views | dylanisabaddog |
I thought it was obvious what his original intention was. Buy a £30m debt for £7m. Get promoted then pull the £30m plus interest out of the tv money.
To continually suggest that ME is deliberately making a loss for tax reasons is nonsense. Tax relief on losses is 20%. | | | |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 12:53 - Oct 23 with 9617 views | Superfrans |
| Marcus Evans and our debt on 10:20 - Oct 23 by north_stand77 |
I too have some shares to that value but someone close to me put in 5k and will probably never get anything back sadly.
Would be nice if the club said to him that they would give him a couple of free season tickets every so often. It would be no skin of their nose as there are so many empty seats anyway and would indicate that we hadn't been forgotten entirely! |
I also invested then too. But anyone who thought they were buying anything more than a very expensive certificate to stick on their wall was misunderstanding what the share issue was all about. We were never going to get any of our money back. |  |
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