Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) 20:02 - Nov 6 with 5807 views | BanksterDebtSlave | https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/06/bernie-sanders-paradise-papers-leak In a seperate article Paul Mason states.... " After Brexit has happened, the mature democracies of Europe should be pushing to consolidate their project, telling a coherent, positive story to their increasingly critical electorates. Yet they cannot — because the only coherent story Europe has is more globalism and more market, and that is what the populations are rejecting. " .....join the dots ! The plebs are revolting....It's always class war ! | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 20:10 - Nov 6 with 5122 views | Darth_Koont | Good, good, good ... good conflation! | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 20:29 - Nov 6 with 5087 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 20:10 - Nov 6 by Darth_Koont | Good, good, good ... good conflation! |
Would you care to expand or are you just making a stand for 'socialists for globalisation ?' What exactly is being incorrectly conflated ? | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 20:30 - Nov 6 with 5083 views | Darth_Koont |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 20:29 - Nov 6 by BanksterDebtSlave | Would you care to expand or are you just making a stand for 'socialists for globalisation ?' What exactly is being incorrectly conflated ? |
What's the link between the two? Objectively speaking. Not in your own mind. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 20:33 - Nov 6 with 5073 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 20:30 - Nov 6 by Darth_Koont | What's the link between the two? Objectively speaking. Not in your own mind. |
Globalisation favouring the 'elites' because trickle down is a myth. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 20:36 - Nov 6 with 5063 views | Darth_Koont |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 20:33 - Nov 6 by BanksterDebtSlave | Globalisation favouring the 'elites' because trickle down is a myth. |
What does globalisation and trickle down have to do with each other? | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:00 - Nov 6 with 5037 views | Guthrum | Globalisation is not so much a policy as an inevitable consequence of ever improving worldwide transport and communications. A process which has been going on since ancient times, but really accelerated from the late 17th century onwards. We want stuff they make, they want to sell it to us, shipping is (relatively) cheap and easy. The only way to combat globalisation is to split down into the smallest possible territories and surround oneself with high tariff walls. This merely impoverishes everybody. Western (high living standard/high earning) consumers do not have cheap goods which support their thriving (job providing) shops. Producing countries lack marketplaces, thus cannot employ people in the factories. Back to subsistence farming, scarcity of goods and even more concentration of wealth in the hands of landowners (being the only ones holding stuff worth anything). Everyone starves in the first famine. Globalisation itself is not the problem. If anything, it's lack of global cooperation which allows corporations and individuals to shift their wealth about and avoid paying tax. As long as there are tax havens, it's impossible to pin down money and extract due percentage from it, to enrich the countries of origin. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:08 - Nov 6 with 5021 views | Darth_Koont |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:00 - Nov 6 by Guthrum | Globalisation is not so much a policy as an inevitable consequence of ever improving worldwide transport and communications. A process which has been going on since ancient times, but really accelerated from the late 17th century onwards. We want stuff they make, they want to sell it to us, shipping is (relatively) cheap and easy. The only way to combat globalisation is to split down into the smallest possible territories and surround oneself with high tariff walls. This merely impoverishes everybody. Western (high living standard/high earning) consumers do not have cheap goods which support their thriving (job providing) shops. Producing countries lack marketplaces, thus cannot employ people in the factories. Back to subsistence farming, scarcity of goods and even more concentration of wealth in the hands of landowners (being the only ones holding stuff worth anything). Everyone starves in the first famine. Globalisation itself is not the problem. If anything, it's lack of global cooperation which allows corporations and individuals to shift their wealth about and avoid paying tax. As long as there are tax havens, it's impossible to pin down money and extract due percentage from it, to enrich the countries of origin. |
Agreed. It's also the only way that our Western economies, societies and their values can survive let alone thrive. Put simply, we no longer control the means of production unless we're willing to operate outside our own borders. Most other European nations see the need to engage globally as a democratic and economic necessity. It's our own fault in the UK if we're so reliant on big business and shady financiers. We still see the benefit though even if it could be greater. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:16 - Nov 6 with 5012 views | Guthrum |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:08 - Nov 6 by Darth_Koont | Agreed. It's also the only way that our Western economies, societies and their values can survive let alone thrive. Put simply, we no longer control the means of production unless we're willing to operate outside our own borders. Most other European nations see the need to engage globally as a democratic and economic necessity. It's our own fault in the UK if we're so reliant on big business and shady financiers. We still see the benefit though even if it could be greater. |
We no longer have the sources of cheap fuel and raw materials. Our labour is no longer cheap (cost and expected standard of living). We no longer have the captive marketplaces for our finished goods. Our products are often no longer the finest quality in the world. We are not going to get back to a situation where all of the above are in our benefit at any time in the forseeable future. It was a fortuitous circunstance of history which is unlikely to repeat itself (or will take many centuries to recreate). | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:23 - Nov 6 with 5003 views | Darth_Koont |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:16 - Nov 6 by Guthrum | We no longer have the sources of cheap fuel and raw materials. Our labour is no longer cheap (cost and expected standard of living). We no longer have the captive marketplaces for our finished goods. Our products are often no longer the finest quality in the world. We are not going to get back to a situation where all of the above are in our benefit at any time in the forseeable future. It was a fortuitous circunstance of history which is unlikely to repeat itself (or will take many centuries to recreate). |
Which is why ironically we should be putting emphasis on media studies and similar. This type of industry along with financial services, management consultancy, industrial design, software etc are the only products and services we have that other countries want to buy. A few bottles of whisky and jars of jam notwithstanding. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:58 - Nov 6 with 4973 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:00 - Nov 6 by Guthrum | Globalisation is not so much a policy as an inevitable consequence of ever improving worldwide transport and communications. A process which has been going on since ancient times, but really accelerated from the late 17th century onwards. We want stuff they make, they want to sell it to us, shipping is (relatively) cheap and easy. The only way to combat globalisation is to split down into the smallest possible territories and surround oneself with high tariff walls. This merely impoverishes everybody. Western (high living standard/high earning) consumers do not have cheap goods which support their thriving (job providing) shops. Producing countries lack marketplaces, thus cannot employ people in the factories. Back to subsistence farming, scarcity of goods and even more concentration of wealth in the hands of landowners (being the only ones holding stuff worth anything). Everyone starves in the first famine. Globalisation itself is not the problem. If anything, it's lack of global cooperation which allows corporations and individuals to shift their wealth about and avoid paying tax. As long as there are tax havens, it's impossible to pin down money and extract due percentage from it, to enrich the countries of origin. |
Imo globalisation is very much a policy......the problem is that the people that pull the strings have been inheriting the role through history so it is never going to be designed for 'our' benefit but to continue to serve 'their' interests. If 'the plebs' had got to design the model we would not have come up with this. Those tax havens will not be disappearing anytime soon . The casino is rigged. In short (regarding globalism/protectionism) I suppose I am arguing that you can't make a silk purse from a pig's ear and that a new paradigm is required. Do you really think that these are the only two shows in town?The current model inevitably will lead us to ecocide at the very best whichever of the two options wins out. I think that new paradigms have a better chance of evolving at a more human 'local' than global level. (although the connectedness of the interweb has a part to play in spreading any such ) .....a slight tangent but all this faux pandering to sustainability (carbon credits, battery powered stuff etc ) should be seen for the guff it is when designed obselescence is still de rigueur . The elites will continue to extract wealth from us and the planet whatever the cost....it is what they have always and will always do. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:03 - Nov 6 with 4964 views | Darth_Koont |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:58 - Nov 6 by BanksterDebtSlave | Imo globalisation is very much a policy......the problem is that the people that pull the strings have been inheriting the role through history so it is never going to be designed for 'our' benefit but to continue to serve 'their' interests. If 'the plebs' had got to design the model we would not have come up with this. Those tax havens will not be disappearing anytime soon . The casino is rigged. In short (regarding globalism/protectionism) I suppose I am arguing that you can't make a silk purse from a pig's ear and that a new paradigm is required. Do you really think that these are the only two shows in town?The current model inevitably will lead us to ecocide at the very best whichever of the two options wins out. I think that new paradigms have a better chance of evolving at a more human 'local' than global level. (although the connectedness of the interweb has a part to play in spreading any such ) .....a slight tangent but all this faux pandering to sustainability (carbon credits, battery powered stuff etc ) should be seen for the guff it is when designed obselescence is still de rigueur . The elites will continue to extract wealth from us and the planet whatever the cost....it is what they have always and will always do. |
You really need to take Guthrum's first line as fact and see it as a consequence. The idea that globalisation is under anyone's control is laughable. How we mitigate the risks of globalisation or maximize the benefits is the real discussion. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:12 - Nov 6 with 4950 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:16 - Nov 6 by Guthrum | We no longer have the sources of cheap fuel and raw materials. Our labour is no longer cheap (cost and expected standard of living). We no longer have the captive marketplaces for our finished goods. Our products are often no longer the finest quality in the world. We are not going to get back to a situation where all of the above are in our benefit at any time in the forseeable future. It was a fortuitous circunstance of history which is unlikely to repeat itself (or will take many centuries to recreate). |
"the captive marketplaces "...... ..... "It was a fortuitous circunstance of history ".......(sorry I can't square these two statements) We just had the first sociopaths to the party (with God on their side) It didn't just happen , it was sought out and created thtough coercion , exertion of power and control and different forms of violence on multiple levels. I genuinely appreciate your encyclepedic knowledge on many things but who gets to write those history books ? | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:18 - Nov 6 with 4940 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:03 - Nov 6 by Darth_Koont | You really need to take Guthrum's first line as fact and see it as a consequence. The idea that globalisation is under anyone's control is laughable. How we mitigate the risks of globalisation or maximize the benefits is the real discussion. |
Globalisation is the inevitable consequence of Capitalism. I'm certain that if Marx and you had been around with the internet you would have told him that he was mostly being silly ! If you don't think globalisation is controlled by a 'class' of people and is a natural order we may as well kill ourselves now ! Edit....oh and can you expand on what this is supposed to mean or shall I ask a native American Indian ! ...."Western economies, societies and their values .".....ha..ha....ha! [Post edited 6 Nov 2017 22:22]
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:31 - Nov 6 with 4910 views | Darth_Koont |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:18 - Nov 6 by BanksterDebtSlave | Globalisation is the inevitable consequence of Capitalism. I'm certain that if Marx and you had been around with the internet you would have told him that he was mostly being silly ! If you don't think globalisation is controlled by a 'class' of people and is a natural order we may as well kill ourselves now ! Edit....oh and can you expand on what this is supposed to mean or shall I ask a native American Indian ! ...."Western economies, societies and their values .".....ha..ha....ha! [Post edited 6 Nov 2017 22:22]
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Modern globalisation is of course fueled by communication and data transfer, and that genie isn't going back in the bottle. Nor should it. Marx may very well have tried to address this natural order but he'd also have been p!ssing up the wrong tree if he thought it was about some elite control. It's the very democratisation of this type of information and the means to spread it that makes it impossible to control. Never mind the fact that everyone is already physically trading with everyone else anyway and has been for more than a few generations. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:34 - Nov 6 with 4909 views | Guthrum |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 21:58 - Nov 6 by BanksterDebtSlave | Imo globalisation is very much a policy......the problem is that the people that pull the strings have been inheriting the role through history so it is never going to be designed for 'our' benefit but to continue to serve 'their' interests. If 'the plebs' had got to design the model we would not have come up with this. Those tax havens will not be disappearing anytime soon . The casino is rigged. In short (regarding globalism/protectionism) I suppose I am arguing that you can't make a silk purse from a pig's ear and that a new paradigm is required. Do you really think that these are the only two shows in town?The current model inevitably will lead us to ecocide at the very best whichever of the two options wins out. I think that new paradigms have a better chance of evolving at a more human 'local' than global level. (although the connectedness of the interweb has a part to play in spreading any such ) .....a slight tangent but all this faux pandering to sustainability (carbon credits, battery powered stuff etc ) should be seen for the guff it is when designed obselescence is still de rigueur . The elites will continue to extract wealth from us and the planet whatever the cost....it is what they have always and will always do. |
But what is this new paradigm, how does it work and where does it come from? I've not seen any real, concrete ideas other than some slightly twee thoughts around local self-sufficiency (all well and good, but we're back to subsistence farming and land ownership again). What is going to maintain the standard of living (e.g. healthcare) to which Western society has become accustomed? An improvement to the current model would involve the general population taking (or being handed) a greater share of the profits from/ownership of the enterprises in which they work. If that sounds Communist, well it was one of the things Marx recognised as important for a more equitable distribution of wealth amongst those who were working in the creation of it. But equally, it points to worker share schemes and other such capitalist (even Thatcherite) concepts. They are another route to the same outcome. Unfortunately, many of those on the economic "right" are also afraid of the very regulation which could be used to force companies into these better practices. And if they did try to take a stand, their supposed allies in other countries are more than happy to undercut them with favourable deals to entice away the business. And I don't really see the hereditary succession of wealth through history. Families were always climbing up to riches and fading away again. Most of the current very rich have had money for only a generation or two at most (the Duke of Westminster being the exception rather than the rule). | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:41 - Nov 6 with 4896 views | Guthrum |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:12 - Nov 6 by BanksterDebtSlave | "the captive marketplaces "...... ..... "It was a fortuitous circunstance of history ".......(sorry I can't square these two statements) We just had the first sociopaths to the party (with God on their side) It didn't just happen , it was sought out and created thtough coercion , exertion of power and control and different forms of violence on multiple levels. I genuinely appreciate your encyclepedic knowledge on many things but who gets to write those history books ? |
The fortuitous bit (for Britain particularly) was being a very fertile island situated bang on what would become the world's major trade routes (the Atlantic seaboard). Without that surplus of food production, eventual political stability (aided by being very difficult to invade) and access to the oceans, we could not have exploited the opportunities, including the aquisition of a global empire. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 23:07 - Nov 6 with 4863 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 22:34 - Nov 6 by Guthrum | But what is this new paradigm, how does it work and where does it come from? I've not seen any real, concrete ideas other than some slightly twee thoughts around local self-sufficiency (all well and good, but we're back to subsistence farming and land ownership again). What is going to maintain the standard of living (e.g. healthcare) to which Western society has become accustomed? An improvement to the current model would involve the general population taking (or being handed) a greater share of the profits from/ownership of the enterprises in which they work. If that sounds Communist, well it was one of the things Marx recognised as important for a more equitable distribution of wealth amongst those who were working in the creation of it. But equally, it points to worker share schemes and other such capitalist (even Thatcherite) concepts. They are another route to the same outcome. Unfortunately, many of those on the economic "right" are also afraid of the very regulation which could be used to force companies into these better practices. And if they did try to take a stand, their supposed allies in other countries are more than happy to undercut them with favourable deals to entice away the business. And I don't really see the hereditary succession of wealth through history. Families were always climbing up to riches and fading away again. Most of the current very rich have had money for only a generation or two at most (the Duke of Westminster being the exception rather than the rule). |
Well there's the rub but I'm sure that if you put your mind to it you will come up with something ! Unfortunately the fact that as a global society we have squandered billions of hours of carbon stored sun energy to get to where we are does not make the task any easier. Land ownership and control of the means and gains of production are certainly a likely necessary first step. (SUMA wholefood cooperarative have a successful model just for interest) I will get back to you when I have the manifesto tied up but I think it will involve an interweb for communication and cooperation, a charter of basic human requirements, the abolition of money and a realisation that we are "all in it together " (catchy !)so it is mutually beneficial to assist each other in attaining these basics. Probably an associated gradual decline in population (as we learn to live in balance, )and spontaneous realisation that religion is a really stupid idea would help too. An anarchist syndicalist techno/eden future awaits.....all aboard ! Edit...til then I will get on with my gardening/coppicing..... [Post edited 6 Nov 2017 23:12]
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 23:16 - Nov 6 with 4845 views | Guthrum |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 23:07 - Nov 6 by BanksterDebtSlave | Well there's the rub but I'm sure that if you put your mind to it you will come up with something ! Unfortunately the fact that as a global society we have squandered billions of hours of carbon stored sun energy to get to where we are does not make the task any easier. Land ownership and control of the means and gains of production are certainly a likely necessary first step. (SUMA wholefood cooperarative have a successful model just for interest) I will get back to you when I have the manifesto tied up but I think it will involve an interweb for communication and cooperation, a charter of basic human requirements, the abolition of money and a realisation that we are "all in it together " (catchy !)so it is mutually beneficial to assist each other in attaining these basics. Probably an associated gradual decline in population (as we learn to live in balance, )and spontaneous realisation that religion is a really stupid idea would help too. An anarchist syndicalist techno/eden future awaits.....all aboard ! Edit...til then I will get on with my gardening/coppicing..... [Post edited 6 Nov 2017 23:12]
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But we need the nitty-gritty, the mechanics of how we're going to feed and clothe the population. Who's going to make the computers for the internet? If there's no money, what do the workforce get out of it, how do you get the raw materials (many of which are only available in large quantities on the other side of the globe)? Training acquisitiveness and individual self importance out of humanity will take you centuries, if not millennia. If anything, what most religions teach (e.g. love thy neighbour as thyself, buddhist rejection of materialism) will be a help in that task, not a hindrance. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 23:35 - Nov 6 with 4816 views | blue_oyster | Morality in the western world has broken down, leading to excess greed through capitalism. If this continues, the extremists and their Marxist friends will be back try to shut it all down again. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 23:42 - Nov 6 with 4813 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 23:16 - Nov 6 by Guthrum | But we need the nitty-gritty, the mechanics of how we're going to feed and clothe the population. Who's going to make the computers for the internet? If there's no money, what do the workforce get out of it, how do you get the raw materials (many of which are only available in large quantities on the other side of the globe)? Training acquisitiveness and individual self importance out of humanity will take you centuries, if not millennia. If anything, what most religions teach (e.g. love thy neighbour as thyself, buddhist rejection of materialism) will be a help in that task, not a hindrance. |
I think we are back to designed obselesence here and is why I made the point about squandering resources earlier. (I think we have more than enough computers already, we won't all need to have one). Localism will also feature heavily including local not national grids. See what you make of this if you like.... http://www.steadystate.org/ | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 00:01 - Nov 7 with 4795 views | Darth_Koont |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 23:35 - Nov 6 by blue_oyster | Morality in the western world has broken down, leading to excess greed through capitalism. If this continues, the extremists and their Marxist friends will be back try to shut it all down again. |
Best drink the Kool-Aid then. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 03:31 - Nov 7 with 4735 views | Swansea_Blue | "People are rejecting globalism and more market"? They seem to be doing the opposite. | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 11:08 - Nov 7 with 4662 views | No9 |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 23:35 - Nov 6 by blue_oyster | Morality in the western world has broken down, leading to excess greed through capitalism. If this continues, the extremists and their Marxist friends will be back try to shut it all down again. |
How do you work that out? | | | |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 13:24 - Nov 7 with 4632 views | blue_oyster |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 11:08 - Nov 7 by No9 | How do you work that out? |
Through facts and logic. How do you think? | |
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Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 13:52 - Nov 7 with 4603 views | SpruceMoose |
Globalisation......we are being fleeced ! (Quelle surpris !) on 13:24 - Nov 7 by blue_oyster | Through facts and logic. How do you think? |
Geoffrey attempts an all-too-rare hoik down to cow corner. Wafting aimlessly outside the off stump results in a miss however, with the ball sailing through to the keeper harmlessly. 0 for 0 in the 24th over. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | Poll: | Selectamod |
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