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With the Budget just around the corner 11:06 - Nov 20 with 8546 viewsArcher4721

A Landmark study links Tory austerity to 120,000 deaths


Government is accused of 'economic murder'



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/tory-austerity-deaths-study-report-peop
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With the Budget just around the corner on 08:36 - Nov 22 with 2941 viewsNo9

With the Budget just around the corner on 21:49 - Nov 21 by blue_oyster

I'm looking at the actual amount spend (approx 800 billion pounds), a record amount. So there's no way this could be called 'austerity', which means severe cuts.


Looking through your frosted glasses?
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With the Budget just around the corner on 08:40 - Nov 22 with 2940 viewsNo9

With the Budget just around the corner on 23:13 - Nov 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

The moneys all gone or going to China. Within 30 years all the investment will have moved abroad and things will turn really nasty


You may be closer than yout think but it's not all gone / going to China
Cameron & Osborne handed out large numbers of £ in billions to foreign corporations & wealthy individuals + their vanity projects.
So for that section of socienty there has been no austerity just for the ordinary bloke & its going to get worse
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With the Budget just around the corner on 09:14 - Nov 22 with 2932 viewsGlasgowBlue

With the Budget just around the corner on 23:29 - Nov 21 by Swansea_Blue

Yeah, not sure how they've arrived at those numbers, whether there reasoning is sound, etc, etc.


The point that seems to be ignored by the op is why we had austerity in the first place.

We had just suffered the biggest finical crash in living memory. The country was bankrupt. Had the financial sector not been bailed out banks would have closed. Cash machines would have run out of money. The economy would have collapsed with businesses going under and million losing their jobs. The food shelves in shops would have been empty. So hundreds of thousands of people would have been plunged into poverty and hunger. We know what the outcome in terms of health would have been.

So the country was skint. Completely living beyond it's means. So was austerity necessary? Well every political party said so. Alistair Darling said that if Labour was re elected in 2010 then Labour's planned cuts in public spending would be "deeper and tougher" than Margaret Thatcher's in the 1980s

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-mar

Had the country not gone through a period of austerity there would have been no money to pay pensions to the elderly. Or benefits to the poorest in society. The NHS would have been starved of cash.

How many people would have died in that scenario?

There is a debate to be had now that the economy is stable and the deficit has been reduced by 50% as a share of GDP that the Chancellor should release the purse strings.

I'd agree with that thought. We are in a position to look at middle way. Not go on a mad spending spree that will put us back in the sh1t. But a sensible increase in public spending to deliver better public services and higher wages for NHS workers, teachers and other valued public service workers.

But let's not kid ourselves as the OP is doing that austerity was a choice. It was a necessity.

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With the Budget just around the corner on 09:16 - Nov 22 with 2930 viewsHerbivore

With the Budget just around the corner on 09:14 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

The point that seems to be ignored by the op is why we had austerity in the first place.

We had just suffered the biggest finical crash in living memory. The country was bankrupt. Had the financial sector not been bailed out banks would have closed. Cash machines would have run out of money. The economy would have collapsed with businesses going under and million losing their jobs. The food shelves in shops would have been empty. So hundreds of thousands of people would have been plunged into poverty and hunger. We know what the outcome in terms of health would have been.

So the country was skint. Completely living beyond it's means. So was austerity necessary? Well every political party said so. Alistair Darling said that if Labour was re elected in 2010 then Labour's planned cuts in public spending would be "deeper and tougher" than Margaret Thatcher's in the 1980s

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-mar

Had the country not gone through a period of austerity there would have been no money to pay pensions to the elderly. Or benefits to the poorest in society. The NHS would have been starved of cash.

How many people would have died in that scenario?

There is a debate to be had now that the economy is stable and the deficit has been reduced by 50% as a share of GDP that the Chancellor should release the purse strings.

I'd agree with that thought. We are in a position to look at middle way. Not go on a mad spending spree that will put us back in the sh1t. But a sensible increase in public spending to deliver better public services and higher wages for NHS workers, teachers and other valued public service workers.

But let's not kid ourselves as the OP is doing that austerity was a choice. It was a necessity.


The extent and depth of the cuts, and their focus, was a choice though Glassers. Let's not pretend otherwise.

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With the Budget just around the corner on 09:26 - Nov 22 with 2921 viewsGlasgowBlue

With the Budget just around the corner on 09:16 - Nov 22 by Herbivore

The extent and depth of the cuts, and their focus, was a choice though Glassers. Let's not pretend otherwise.


Both of the major parties put forward identical spending cuts. The only difference was that Labour wanted to delay the start of the cuts by one year.

And as I have posted before, Denis Healy had to cut more in one year when he was Chancellor than Osborne did in his entire period in the same position.

But regardless of whether we agree or disagree with regards to the depths and focus of the cuts, you agree that austerity was necessary and that had we not been able to fund the NHS or pay benefits or pension then many more people than the number quoted in the op would have died. That's not to say that any of those deaths ate nothing but a tragedy and should in no way be trivialised.

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With the Budget just around the corner on 09:27 - Nov 22 with 2916 viewsblue_oyster

With the Budget just around the corner on 08:36 - Nov 22 by No9

Looking through your frosted glasses?


Facts, easily found, if you are interested. One suspects not, though.

Conventional wisdom is the enemy of thought.
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With the Budget just around the corner on 09:43 - Nov 22 with 2902 viewsNo9

With the Budget just around the corner on 09:27 - Nov 22 by blue_oyster

Facts, easily found, if you are interested. One suspects not, though.


I found the facts & published them on here a good while back
You only ever see what you want to.
Which public service is not in crisis due to cuts?
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With the Budget just around the corner on 10:04 - Nov 22 with 2890 viewsblue_oyster

With the Budget just around the corner on 09:43 - Nov 22 by No9

I found the facts & published them on here a good while back
You only ever see what you want to.
Which public service is not in crisis due to cuts?


This year, public spending is budgeted at £814bn, the highest amount, ever. Are you denying this fact?

Conventional wisdom is the enemy of thought.
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With the Budget just around the corner on 10:20 - Nov 22 with 2873 viewsGunnsAirkick

With the Budget just around the corner on 10:04 - Nov 22 by blue_oyster

This year, public spending is budgeted at £814bn, the highest amount, ever. Are you denying this fact?


So you're having a go at someone for denying facts whilst you're denying facts yourself? You're correct on the amount, do you also agree that spending in real terms has been on a consistent downwards trend since 2010?
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With the Budget just around the corner on 10:22 - Nov 22 with 2870 viewsblue_oyster

With the Budget just around the corner on 10:20 - Nov 22 by GunnsAirkick

So you're having a go at someone for denying facts whilst you're denying facts yourself? You're correct on the amount, do you also agree that spending in real terms has been on a consistent downwards trend since 2010?


Of course I agree with that. Where have I denied this?

Conventional wisdom is the enemy of thought.
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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:04 - Nov 22 with 2845 viewsNo9

With the Budget just around the corner on 10:04 - Nov 22 by blue_oyster

This year, public spending is budgeted at £814bn, the highest amount, ever. Are you denying this fact?


Not at all, I have never denied the government are spending vast amounts of taxpayers money - just complaining that it has not been spent aleviating poverty but has gone into the nack accounts of overseas corproations and the rich.
You don't understand austerity do you?
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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:12 - Nov 22 with 2838 viewsblue_oyster

With the Budget just around the corner on 12:04 - Nov 22 by No9

Not at all, I have never denied the government are spending vast amounts of taxpayers money - just complaining that it has not been spent aleviating poverty but has gone into the nack accounts of overseas corproations and the rich.
You don't understand austerity do you?


Austerity means severe cuts to save money. If there is a record amount being spent, this is hardly 'severe'. You've still to deal with this fact.

Conventional wisdom is the enemy of thought.
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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:20 - Nov 22 with 2826 viewsNo9

With the Budget just around the corner on 12:12 - Nov 22 by blue_oyster

Austerity means severe cuts to save money. If there is a record amount being spent, this is hardly 'severe'. You've still to deal with this fact.


No, you have to deal with facts.
Austerity has been for the poor only
There have been severe cuts to public services if you haven't noticed you have not living in the UK.
All of the public services are in crisis.

But we put in a government in 2010 that deciced to have a splurge on corproate welfare.

Time to start looking at reality
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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:31 - Nov 22 with 2821 viewsGunnsAirkick

With the Budget just around the corner on 10:22 - Nov 22 by blue_oyster

Of course I agree with that. Where have I denied this?


You said "This is what record public spending does, is it?" This seems to insinuate that you think because more money is being spent (even though in real terms there have been cuts) that people shouldn't be struggling?
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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:32 - Nov 22 with 2819 viewsblue_oyster

With the Budget just around the corner on 12:20 - Nov 22 by No9

No, you have to deal with facts.
Austerity has been for the poor only
There have been severe cuts to public services if you haven't noticed you have not living in the UK.
All of the public services are in crisis.

But we put in a government in 2010 that deciced to have a splurge on corproate welfare.

Time to start looking at reality


What severe cuts? Where do you think the excess money is now going?

Conventional wisdom is the enemy of thought.
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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:35 - Nov 22 with 2817 viewsDeano69

Utter bobbins.

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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:38 - Nov 22 with 2816 viewsHerbivore

With the Budget just around the corner on 12:32 - Nov 22 by blue_oyster

What severe cuts? Where do you think the excess money is now going?


Word to the wise, successful trolling involves making other people look stupid.

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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:44 - Nov 22 with 2808 viewsNo9

With the Budget just around the corner on 12:32 - Nov 22 by blue_oyster

What severe cuts? Where do you think the excess money is now going?


You aren't watching are you?
-if you don't know why defend somethign you don't understand.
Just admit you don't know - but I can see where so what can't you?
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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:44 - Nov 22 with 2808 viewsGlasgowBlue

With the Budget just around the corner on 12:38 - Nov 22 by Herbivore

Word to the wise, successful trolling involves making other people look stupid.


I think the bulk of the cuts have been at local government level which has been hit hardest.

Osborne wanted to look tough but he was afraid of making real tough decisions which would have been politically disastrous but would have spread the pain evenly. Ring fencing Health, Education and Overseas Development may have looked good at election time but had he the balls to do what Healey did, which basically saved thew British economy, then austerity would have been harder but shorter and made a real difference to the deficit.

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With the Budget just around the corner on 12:50 - Nov 22 with 2801 viewsNo9

With the Budget just around the corner on 12:32 - Nov 22 by blue_oyster

What severe cuts? Where do you think the excess money is now going?


According to Mr Hammond he's not spending as much as you claim he is
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With the Budget just around the corner on 13:40 - Nov 22 with 2776 viewsPinewoodblue

With the Budget just around the corner on 12:44 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

I think the bulk of the cuts have been at local government level which has been hit hardest.

Osborne wanted to look tough but he was afraid of making real tough decisions which would have been politically disastrous but would have spread the pain evenly. Ring fencing Health, Education and Overseas Development may have looked good at election time but had he the balls to do what Healey did, which basically saved thew British economy, then austerity would have been harder but shorter and made a real difference to the deficit.


While there have been significant cuts at local government level at the same time their reserve funds have risen significantly' , same with Police funds.

Not seen anything more recent than 2015 but they have risen by over 70% since 2010. Up from £13bn to £22bn. This excludes any ring fenced savings it is just general funds.

Edit. Put 2020 instead of 2010.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2017 13:45]

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With the Budget just around the corner on 13:42 - Nov 22 with 2775 viewsblue_oyster

With the Budget just around the corner on 12:44 - Nov 22 by No9

You aren't watching are you?
-if you don't know why defend somethign you don't understand.
Just admit you don't know - but I can see where so what can't you?


You have no idea how to argue do you. There are no cuts to public services overall, the amount spent has increased. If you think this is not right, then please provide evidence to the contrary .

Conventional wisdom is the enemy of thought.
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With the Budget just around the corner on 13:53 - Nov 22 with 2753 viewsHerbivore

With the Budget just around the corner on 13:42 - Nov 22 by blue_oyster

You have no idea how to argue do you. There are no cuts to public services overall, the amount spent has increased. If you think this is not right, then please provide evidence to the contrary .


To give you credit the one part of trolling you've got the hang of is being wilfully offensive.

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With the Budget just around the corner on 13:54 - Nov 22 with 2752 viewsClapham_Junction

With the Budget just around the corner on 13:40 - Nov 22 by Pinewoodblue

While there have been significant cuts at local government level at the same time their reserve funds have risen significantly' , same with Police funds.

Not seen anything more recent than 2015 but they have risen by over 70% since 2010. Up from £13bn to £22bn. This excludes any ring fenced savings it is just general funds.

Edit. Put 2020 instead of 2010.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2017 13:45]


I think those are the figures released by DCLG and later repudiated by the Local Government Association as misleading.

A research piece from CIPFA in 2014 had unallocated reserves at £3.7bn. The paper also points out many councils have been increasing their reserves because of uncertain future funding arrangements.

http://www.cipfa.org/~/media/files/cipfa%20thinks/briefing-paper-lg-reserves-v12
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