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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:58 - Nov 21 with 5012 views | chicoazul |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:49 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
If only we had had a national poll on people's views on the EU where they could have been asked these things!
It doesn't take many people to vote "leave" whilst wanting to remain part of the single market/customs union for there to be a majority to stay in them.
"Only" 52% of people voted leave. If one in 25 of those people wanted to stay in the single market, then there would be a majority to do that. Boris spoke several times about remaining in the single market. As did Daniel Hannan. And even Farage.
https://quotebrexit.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/leave-campaigners-lets-stay-in-the-
(I know that is a fairly partisan blog, but I'm familiar with the quotes from other sources and believe them to be true. At the very least Leave gave mixed messages on this, and at worst were deliberately deceitful saying one thing knowing they would push for another).
What Theresa May could have done was to say that the referendum was clearly very close. Leave won, but only just, and so she was going to try and find a position that satisfied as many remainers and leavers as possible. Of course she didn't do that (despite being a remainer herself) and now seems to be driving us off a cliff in the process. |
Thanks I will have a read of that link. And I take your point but I dont agree that the people who voted Leave in Sunderland and Middlesbrough for instance didn't know what they were voting for. |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:59 - Nov 21 with 5011 views | BOjK |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:53 - Nov 21 by Archer4721 |
You're still not getting it are you. The voters don't want a Torylite alternative Labour Party as Miliband found out to his cost. Centrist policies are not working for normal working people. Austerity needs addressing and Corbyn is the only politician prepared to tackle it. |
He's not tackling it though, is he? He can't tackle anything if he's not in government, and despite the shambles at the top of the Tory party the Labour party is only marginally ahead in the opinion polls.
In my lifetime the following people have won elections for the Labour Party:
Tony Blair
The following people have lost elections:
Neil Kinnock
Gordon Brown
Ed Miliband
Jeremy Corbyn
I don't see the conclusion to be drawn here is that Corbyn is the new messiah. |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:01 - Nov 21 with 5002 views | No9 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:58 - Nov 21 by chicoazul |
Thanks I will have a read of that link. And I take your point but I dont agree that the people who voted Leave in Sunderland and Middlesbrough for instance didn't know what they were voting for. |
" I dont agree that the people who voted Leave in Sunderland and Middlesbrough for instance didn't know what they were voting for."
This is an interesting point considering the main employers are all very strongly linked with the EU.
Maybe as the tories have handed out very large sums of money to those foreign companies the people of the Tees & Wier expect that largess to continue? | | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:03 - Nov 21 with 4999 views | chicoazul |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:59 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
He's not tackling it though, is he? He can't tackle anything if he's not in government, and despite the shambles at the top of the Tory party the Labour party is only marginally ahead in the opinion polls.
In my lifetime the following people have won elections for the Labour Party:
Tony Blair
The following people have lost elections:
Neil Kinnock
Gordon Brown
Ed Miliband
Jeremy Corbyn
I don't see the conclusion to be drawn here is that Corbyn is the new messiah. |
No no no, Corbyn *won*, didnt you know? A resounding victory. Len Mclusky said so. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:03 - Nov 21 with 4999 views | Archer4721 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:59 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
He's not tackling it though, is he? He can't tackle anything if he's not in government, and despite the shambles at the top of the Tory party the Labour party is only marginally ahead in the opinion polls.
In my lifetime the following people have won elections for the Labour Party:
Tony Blair
The following people have lost elections:
Neil Kinnock
Gordon Brown
Ed Miliband
Jeremy Corbyn
I don't see the conclusion to be drawn here is that Corbyn is the new messiah. |
The facts are really quite simple. If you wanted power that bad, you and the 170 odd Labour MP's should've swallowed your pride and got fully behind Corbyn and the Labour party at the last election.
You couldn't do that , which is why we still have a Tory Government. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 10:04]
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:06 - Nov 21 with 4988 views | StokieBlue |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:03 - Nov 21 by Archer4721 |
The facts are really quite simple. If you wanted power that bad, you and the 170 odd Labour MP's should've swallowed your pride and got fully behind Corbyn and the Labour party at the last election.
You couldn't do that , which is why we still have a Tory Government. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 10:04]
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Why would that have got you another 64 seats?
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:15 - Nov 21 with 4973 views | Steve_M |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:58 - Nov 21 by chicoazul |
Thanks I will have a read of that link. And I take your point but I dont agree that the people who voted Leave in Sunderland and Middlesbrough for instance didn't know what they were voting for. |
What about the people of Grimsby who have suddenly realised the implications of what they voted for this week?
I'm with Bojk here, Leave promised everything and nothing but there were many statements from prominent leavers amidst that in favour of a Norway-style arrangement. When anyone on the remain side mentioned that leaving the single market was a risk they were shouted down as 'Project Fear'. |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:29 - Nov 21 with 4959 views | Radlett_blue |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:15 - Nov 21 by Steve_M |
What about the people of Grimsby who have suddenly realised the implications of what they voted for this week?
I'm with Bojk here, Leave promised everything and nothing but there were many statements from prominent leavers amidst that in favour of a Norway-style arrangement. When anyone on the remain side mentioned that leaving the single market was a risk they were shouted down as 'Project Fear'. |
You have to be balanced here & admit that both campaigns talked a lot of nonsense. The real answer to how leaving may turn out for the UK is that no-one knows & we won't know for 10-20 years if it was a good or bad decision.
The worst part of the Remain campaign was that it focused almost exclusively on the risks of leaving & largely ignored the benefits of staying, of which there were many. |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:29 - Nov 21 with 4957 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:49 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
If only we had had a national poll on people's views on the EU where they could have been asked these things!
It doesn't take many people to vote "leave" whilst wanting to remain part of the single market/customs union for there to be a majority to stay in them.
"Only" 52% of people voted leave. If one in 25 of those people wanted to stay in the single market, then there would be a majority to do that. Boris spoke several times about remaining in the single market. As did Daniel Hannan. And even Farage.
https://quotebrexit.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/leave-campaigners-lets-stay-in-the-
(I know that is a fairly partisan blog, but I'm familiar with the quotes from other sources and believe them to be true. At the very least Leave gave mixed messages on this, and at worst were deliberately deceitful saying one thing knowing they would push for another).
What Theresa May could have done was to say that the referendum was clearly very close. Leave won, but only just, and so she was going to try and find a position that satisfied as many remainers and leavers as possible. Of course she didn't do that (despite being a remainer herself) and now seems to be driving us off a cliff in the process. |
Didn't we allow Parliament to have a vote on whether we leave or stay in the Customs Union yesterday? Didn't the opposition leader whip his MP's into voting to leave the Customs union.
I thought you wanted Parliament to have it's say and preferred not to consult the general public on such difficult decisions? |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:34 - Nov 21 with 4950 views | No9 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:29 - Nov 21 by Radlett_blue |
You have to be balanced here & admit that both campaigns talked a lot of nonsense. The real answer to how leaving may turn out for the UK is that no-one knows & we won't know for 10-20 years if it was a good or bad decision.
The worst part of the Remain campaign was that it focused almost exclusively on the risks of leaving & largely ignored the benefits of staying, of which there were many. |
I agree with your points.
But, what is significant is that most politicians other than the hard right Brexiteers don't understand the EU & don't want to. We will get the Brexit the hard right want unless the tory donors decide otherwise.
You only have to watch out elected legislators in the HoC to relaise most of them couldn't give a toss = they are on teh gravy train.
Listining to James Dyson gave an insight as to where he wants the UK economy to go - a place that wil not be good for the ordinary manin the street but it will be excellent for the establishment and the wealthy | | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:46 - Nov 21 with 4930 views | BOjK |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:03 - Nov 21 by Archer4721 |
The facts are really quite simple. If you wanted power that bad, you and the 170 odd Labour MP's should've swallowed your pride and got fully behind Corbyn and the Labour party at the last election.
You couldn't do that , which is why we still have a Tory Government. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 10:04]
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I don't want Corbyn and Prime Minister and McDonnell as chancellor. Which is why I didn't vote Labour at the last election, and if they remain I won't at the next.
You are welcome. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:51 - Nov 21 with 4920 views | BOjK |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:29 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Didn't we allow Parliament to have a vote on whether we leave or stay in the Customs Union yesterday? Didn't the opposition leader whip his MP's into voting to leave the Customs union.
I thought you wanted Parliament to have it's say and preferred not to consult the general public on such difficult decisions? |
"Didn't the opposition leader whip his MP's into voting to leave the Customs union."
I think it was a one-line whip to abstain on the measure. I think Corbyn and Starmer abstained and McDonnell voted with the tories.
"I thought you wanted Parliament to have it's say and preferred not to consult the general public on such difficult decisions?"
I do. But I object to people using the referendum result to justify something that wasn't asked. So I object to people who want to leave the single market defending this position by invoking a supposed mandate from the referendum result.
As you are here:
1) What do you think will and should happen with the Northern Irish border and the Customs Union?
2) When are the German car manufacturers going to force the EU to let us have a great trade deal? You assured us all that would happen, and there's no sign yet. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:56 - Nov 21 with 4913 views | No9 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:51 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
"Didn't the opposition leader whip his MP's into voting to leave the Customs union."
I think it was a one-line whip to abstain on the measure. I think Corbyn and Starmer abstained and McDonnell voted with the tories.
"I thought you wanted Parliament to have it's say and preferred not to consult the general public on such difficult decisions?"
I do. But I object to people using the referendum result to justify something that wasn't asked. So I object to people who want to leave the single market defending this position by invoking a supposed mandate from the referendum result.
As you are here:
1) What do you think will and should happen with the Northern Irish border and the Customs Union?
2) When are the German car manufacturers going to force the EU to let us have a great trade deal? You assured us all that would happen, and there's no sign yet. |
Sorry to but in on your private arguement but-
"1) What do you think will and should happen with the Northern Irish border and the Customs Union?"
Theresa Villers gave the game away - the Irish can be sacrificed on the alter of Brexit
"2) When are the German car manufacturers going to force the EU to let us have a great trade deal? You assured us all that would happen, and there's no sign yet."
German cars can be supplied by any number of countries where Fox wants to have cosy arrangements.
Be more concerned about energy than cars | | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:01 - Nov 21 with 4903 views | Steve_M |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:29 - Nov 21 by Radlett_blue |
You have to be balanced here & admit that both campaigns talked a lot of nonsense. The real answer to how leaving may turn out for the UK is that no-one knows & we won't know for 10-20 years if it was a good or bad decision.
The worst part of the Remain campaign was that it focused almost exclusively on the risks of leaving & largely ignored the benefits of staying, of which there were many. |
Yes, Cameron and Osborne directed an appallingly negative campaign in the same vein as that for the Scottish referendum and the 2015 general election (as an aside why is Lynton Cosby so highly regarded?).
It wouldn't have been difficult to make a positive case, similar to the one Gordon Brown made for the UK before the Scottish referendum. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:03 - Nov 21 with 4898 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:51 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
"Didn't the opposition leader whip his MP's into voting to leave the Customs union."
I think it was a one-line whip to abstain on the measure. I think Corbyn and Starmer abstained and McDonnell voted with the tories.
"I thought you wanted Parliament to have it's say and preferred not to consult the general public on such difficult decisions?"
I do. But I object to people using the referendum result to justify something that wasn't asked. So I object to people who want to leave the single market defending this position by invoking a supposed mandate from the referendum result.
As you are here:
1) What do you think will and should happen with the Northern Irish border and the Customs Union?
2) When are the German car manufacturers going to force the EU to let us have a great trade deal? You assured us all that would happen, and there's no sign yet. |
1. I don't know. This is for our elected politicians to resolve.
2. I don't believe I ever said that "German car manufacturers going to force the EU to let us have a great trade deal" although I stand to be corrected.
I did say that it would not be in the interests of German Car manufacturers for the EU not to conclude a good trade deal with us. I stand by that. A deal will be concluded. It is not in the interests of the EU not to have a trade deal with what will be their largest export market outside of the EU.
And it was made perfectly clear at the time that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. Leave an remain both said this at the time.
https://www.ft.com/content/0c5c74bc-151e-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e
https://www.politico.eu/article/david-cameron-bbc-andrew-marr-ill-pull-uk-out-of
[Post edited 21 Nov 2017 11:07]
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:44 - Nov 21 with 4852 views | lowhouseblue |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:03 - Nov 21 by Archer4721 |
The facts are really quite simple. If you wanted power that bad, you and the 170 odd Labour MP's should've swallowed your pride and got fully behind Corbyn and the Labour party at the last election.
You couldn't do that , which is why we still have a Tory Government. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 10:04]
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corbyn, mcdonnell and a large part of the shadow cabinet aren't fit to govern. there is a risk of the tories splitting so badly that there is an emergency election in a state of crisis. that's corbyn's one chance and it would be an absolute disaster for the country. other than that at the next election corbyn will lose AGAIN. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:53 - Nov 21 with 4837 views | BOjK |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:03 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue |
1. I don't know. This is for our elected politicians to resolve.
2. I don't believe I ever said that "German car manufacturers going to force the EU to let us have a great trade deal" although I stand to be corrected.
I did say that it would not be in the interests of German Car manufacturers for the EU not to conclude a good trade deal with us. I stand by that. A deal will be concluded. It is not in the interests of the EU not to have a trade deal with what will be their largest export market outside of the EU.
And it was made perfectly clear at the time that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. Leave an remain both said this at the time.
https://www.ft.com/content/0c5c74bc-151e-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e
https://www.politico.eu/article/david-cameron-bbc-andrew-marr-ill-pull-uk-out-of
[Post edited 21 Nov 2017 11:07]
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"And it was made perfectly clear at the time that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. Leave an remain both said this at the time."
Apart from the leavers I've quoted. The Norway model was discussed extensively in the early part of the campaign as a viable path to follow, and it was an option is a government produced "what happens if we leave" information booklet.
Certainly some people on all sides said we would have to leave the SM, but plenty of people on the leave side in particular said we wouldn't. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:57 - Nov 21 with 4826 views | hype313 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:53 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
"And it was made perfectly clear at the time that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. Leave an remain both said this at the time."
Apart from the leavers I've quoted. The Norway model was discussed extensively in the early part of the campaign as a viable path to follow, and it was an option is a government produced "what happens if we leave" information booklet.
Certainly some people on all sides said we would have to leave the SM, but plenty of people on the leave side in particular said we wouldn't. |
I think that's where the problem lies, so many people saying so many different things, that the general public just got sick and tired of it all, and essentially the vote boiled down to leave the EU and everything that was attributed to it, or stay within the bloc.
It was all smoke and mirrors and if's but's and maybe's on both sides, and fundamentally the argument for leaving the customs union etc was irrelevant to the voters choice. |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:09 - Nov 21 with 4813 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:53 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
"And it was made perfectly clear at the time that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. Leave an remain both said this at the time."
Apart from the leavers I've quoted. The Norway model was discussed extensively in the early part of the campaign as a viable path to follow, and it was an option is a government produced "what happens if we leave" information booklet.
Certainly some people on all sides said we would have to leave the SM, but plenty of people on the leave side in particular said we wouldn't. |
The prime Minister who was head of the remain campaign said we would leave the single market. Boris and Gove who were the main spoken for vote leave said we would leave the single market.
I voted leave and was in no doubt that we would leave the single market. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:19 - Nov 21 with 4802 views | Archer4721 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:46 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
I don't want Corbyn and Prime Minister and McDonnell as chancellor. Which is why I didn't vote Labour at the last election, and if they remain I won't at the next.
You are welcome. |
Oh well nevermind. Unfortunately millions of people do want them.
You can't always have what you want I'm afraid. | | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:38 - Nov 21 with 4773 views | BOjK |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:09 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue |
The prime Minister who was head of the remain campaign said we would leave the single market. Boris and Gove who were the main spoken for vote leave said we would leave the single market.
I voted leave and was in no doubt that we would leave the single market. |
No no. Leaving the Single Market was just an "aspiration". Like £350m a week for the NHS. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 12:48 - Nov 21 with 4761 views | imsureazzure |
One of the main reasons Thatcher had 3 terms is because she followed a disastrous left wing labour gov that presided over the unions running the country to a standstill.
As much as I would hate to see the country fall as low as the 1970s labour led disaster, it would nearly be worth Corbyn having a go to prove the fallacy again.
Oh the current tory party are an utter disaster also.
We get the gov we deserve. |  | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:59 - Nov 21 with 4737 views | bournemouthblue |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:29 - Nov 21 by Radlett_blue |
You have to be balanced here & admit that both campaigns talked a lot of nonsense. The real answer to how leaving may turn out for the UK is that no-one knows & we won't know for 10-20 years if it was a good or bad decision.
The worst part of the Remain campaign was that it focused almost exclusively on the risks of leaving & largely ignored the benefits of staying, of which there were many. |
Not that we have ever been fully in to start with really, not being in Schengen or the Euro |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 13:04 - Nov 21 with 4735 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:38 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
No no. Leaving the Single Market was just an "aspiration". Like £350m a week for the NHS. |
No. It was a commitment to leave the single market.
https://www.politico.eu/article/david-cameron-bbc-andrew-marr-ill-pull-uk-out-of
David Cameron: ‘I’ll pull UK out of the single market after Brexit’
Edit. That will be that then? [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 14:02]
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 13:59 - Nov 21 with 4694 views | No9 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 12:48 - Nov 21 by imsureazzure |
One of the main reasons Thatcher had 3 terms is because she followed a disastrous left wing labour gov that presided over the unions running the country to a standstill.
As much as I would hate to see the country fall as low as the 1970s labour led disaster, it would nearly be worth Corbyn having a go to prove the fallacy again.
Oh the current tory party are an utter disaster also.
We get the gov we deserve. |
You must be very young not to understand the history of the 70's | | | |
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