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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... 00:01 - Nov 21 with 4148 viewsLibero

There's still 25 minutes or so to go but I can't express just how much I'm enjoying watching the colour dash from Kinnock's face as he watches the results come in and he realises that Corbyn is king and he is cr@p.

Interesting programme so far, really shows how narrow minded and limited the party was in their thinking about how Corbyn opened up demographics and energised people.

Makes you realise why the Conservatives were so sure it was going to be a cake walk when you listen to some of the New Labour bellends whine on about Jeremy.

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 21:02 - Nov 21 with 489 viewsHerbivore

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 20:25 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue

Would you say that the majority of people who voted leave wanted to be able to

a) Control our borders?
b) make our own trade deals?

Do you believe those two issues were the most pushed by vote Leave?


I see what you're trying to do here but I'm not biting.

Poll: Should someone on benefits earn more than David Cameron?

2
Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 21:07 - Nov 21 with 486 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 21:02 - Nov 21 by Herbivore

I see what you're trying to do here but I'm not biting.


I’m not trying to do anything other then clarify the main reasons why people voted to leave the EU.

You cannot control your borders and you cannot strike your own trade deals if you are in the single market.

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Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 21:08 - Nov 21 with 483 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 20:27 - Nov 21 by SpruceMoose

Are they the only two options?


No. That’s why I said that they were the two issues “most” pushed by the leave campaign.

Sovereignty was another but you must submit to the European Court if you are in the single market.

So in the single market you cannot control immigration. You cannot strike your own trade deals and you have to submit to the European court.

[Post edited 21 Nov 21:12]

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 21:48 - Nov 21 with 459 viewsHerbivore

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 21:07 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue

I’m not trying to do anything other then clarify the main reasons why people voted to leave the EU.

You cannot control your borders and you cannot strike your own trade deals if you are in the single market.


Even if those were the main reasons for many the fact that you understand that you can't have your cake and eat it doesn't mean that everyone else was similarly aware, especially with the 'loose with the truth' nature of the whole campaign (not just on the leave side either). It'd also need over 95% of leave voters to have been voting for a hard Brexit for that to mean there is a mandate for it and I don't think even you really believe the percentage would be that high.

Poll: Should someone on benefits earn more than David Cameron?

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 08:04 - Nov 22 with 423 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 21:07 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue

I’m not trying to do anything other then clarify the main reasons why people voted to leave the EU.

You cannot control your borders and you cannot strike your own trade deals if you are in the single market.


One of the main reasons given was to' regain our sovereignty' then the government was fored to point out in official leave documents that the UK had never lost nor had sovereignty threatened.

& it was always ignored that immigration from non UK countries was greater than immigration from EU coun tries - whaich wasn't really immigration at all because so many people worked here for EU companies
& then when it get biled down the Immigration watch people had to concede they have NEVER counted the numbers of people coming into the UK, they just use a UN people movement model - so that was all lies as well.

& of corse we should not forget the person who lost control of the borders was Mrs May as HS when she got rid of all the border guards to save money

People had no idea waht they were votoing for because the RW media lied, lied & lied. You seem to be keen to perpertate those lies?
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 08:58 - Nov 22 with 398 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 21:48 - Nov 21 by Herbivore

Even if those were the main reasons for many the fact that you understand that you can't have your cake and eat it doesn't mean that everyone else was similarly aware, especially with the 'loose with the truth' nature of the whole campaign (not just on the leave side either). It'd also need over 95% of leave voters to have been voting for a hard Brexit for that to mean there is a mandate for it and I don't think even you really believe the percentage would be that high.


Firstly there was no vote for hard or soft Brexit. There was a vote for Brexit. People prioritised the reasons to vote leave.

The three reasons for voting leave were immigration, you cannot control EU immigration if you are in the single market, Sovereignty, UK law is subservient to the European Court if you are in the single market, and the ability to strike our own trade deals, you cannot strike your own trade deals if you are in the single market.

As Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell have both said; to stay in the single market is not respecting the referendum result.

Now you speak of needing 95% of leave voters to have a mandate for a hard Brexit. You are assuming that 100% of remain voters want a soft Brexit. That isn't the case.

They may have voted to remain in the EU but now we have voted to leave they are split ion what type of Brexit we should have.

There are a number of interesting surveys. I'll give you two.

Firstly a survey published in the Guardian and carried out by NatCen, the independent social research agency, and overseen by the elections expert John Curtice. This revealed that 55% of those who voted remain, said they would like to see limits on EU immigration. So over half of remain voters want an end to freedom of movement. As we have established you cannot end freedom of movement and retain membership of the single market.

The survey also found that if voters were forced to choose, they would be split almost evenly on which they would prioritise. Asked whether the UK should compromise and “allow people from the EU freely to come and live and work in return for allowing UK firms to trade freely with the EU”, 70% of remain voters said yes; the same proportion of leave voters said no.

The total number of people who voted in the referendum was 33551983. A majority vote would be 16775992. The number voting leave was17,410,742. The number voting remain was 16,141,241.

So if 30% of remain voters are against staying in the single market if it means a continuation of freedom of movement we have 4842372. Add those remainers to the 70% of leavers are against staying in the single market if it means a continuation of freedom of movement, 12,187,519, we have 17,029,891. A clear majority for leaving the single market.


Secondly, a project by the London School of Economics and Oxford University found that when those surveyed were asked in detail what they want from the negotiations, there is more support for harder Brexit options because Leavers and a significant number of Remainers back them.

58% of leave voters and 51% of remain voters want full control of borders and fewer EU migrants

57% of leave voters and 53% of remain voters want to leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ

That works out at 70% of all voters who prefer the two above options. Again a clear majority.


But we are straying into post referendum territory. My original point was that both the leaders of the leave campaign, Gove and Boris, and the leaders of the remain campaign, Cameron and Osborne we explicitly clear that a vote to leave the EU would mean leaving the single market.

Poll: Who will be out of their job first?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:09 - Nov 22 with 390 viewsHerbivore

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 08:58 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

Firstly there was no vote for hard or soft Brexit. There was a vote for Brexit. People prioritised the reasons to vote leave.

The three reasons for voting leave were immigration, you cannot control EU immigration if you are in the single market, Sovereignty, UK law is subservient to the European Court if you are in the single market, and the ability to strike our own trade deals, you cannot strike your own trade deals if you are in the single market.

As Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell have both said; to stay in the single market is not respecting the referendum result.

Now you speak of needing 95% of leave voters to have a mandate for a hard Brexit. You are assuming that 100% of remain voters want a soft Brexit. That isn't the case.

They may have voted to remain in the EU but now we have voted to leave they are split ion what type of Brexit we should have.

There are a number of interesting surveys. I'll give you two.

Firstly a survey published in the Guardian and carried out by NatCen, the independent social research agency, and overseen by the elections expert John Curtice. This revealed that 55% of those who voted remain, said they would like to see limits on EU immigration. So over half of remain voters want an end to freedom of movement. As we have established you cannot end freedom of movement and retain membership of the single market.

The survey also found that if voters were forced to choose, they would be split almost evenly on which they would prioritise. Asked whether the UK should compromise and “allow people from the EU freely to come and live and work in return for allowing UK firms to trade freely with the EU”, 70% of remain voters said yes; the same proportion of leave voters said no.

The total number of people who voted in the referendum was 33551983. A majority vote would be 16775992. The number voting leave was17,410,742. The number voting remain was 16,141,241.

So if 30% of remain voters are against staying in the single market if it means a continuation of freedom of movement we have 4842372. Add those remainers to the 70% of leavers are against staying in the single market if it means a continuation of freedom of movement, 12,187,519, we have 17,029,891. A clear majority for leaving the single market.


Secondly, a project by the London School of Economics and Oxford University found that when those surveyed were asked in detail what they want from the negotiations, there is more support for harder Brexit options because Leavers and a significant number of Remainers back them.

58% of leave voters and 51% of remain voters want full control of borders and fewer EU migrants

57% of leave voters and 53% of remain voters want to leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ

That works out at 70% of all voters who prefer the two above options. Again a clear majority.


But we are straying into post referendum territory. My original point was that both the leaders of the leave campaign, Gove and Boris, and the leaders of the remain campaign, Cameron and Osborne we explicitly clear that a vote to leave the EU would mean leaving the single market.


Sorry Glassers but that's a load of old nonsense. Remain voters voted remain, which was a clear and simple choice. It was known that remain simply meant remaining, we had no confessions on free movement after Cameron's negotiations with the EU and people voted with that knowledge, no suggestions were made that a remain vote would lead to staying but with restriction on free movement. You can't use subsequent polls on views on immigration to say retrospectively that people who voted for remain didn't really want to remain when they voted remain at the time. The vagueness of choice was all around Brexit and what that would actually mean and look like with a number of proposals being bandied about. Not all leave voters wanted the hard Brexit we're pursuing. Remain voters wanted to remain. The fact that some are now resigned to leaving and have a view on what that should look like is irrelevant.

Poll: Should someone on benefits earn more than David Cameron?

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:14 - Nov 22 with 386 viewstractordownsouth

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 21:07 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue

I’m not trying to do anything other then clarify the main reasons why people voted to leave the EU.

You cannot control your borders and you cannot strike your own trade deals if you are in the single market.


1) Yes we can, you can send home any non-working EU migrant after 3 months

2) That's in the Customs Union, not the Single Market

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:20 - Nov 22 with 374 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:09 - Nov 22 by Herbivore

Sorry Glassers but that's a load of old nonsense. Remain voters voted remain, which was a clear and simple choice. It was known that remain simply meant remaining, we had no confessions on free movement after Cameron's negotiations with the EU and people voted with that knowledge, no suggestions were made that a remain vote would lead to staying but with restriction on free movement. You can't use subsequent polls on views on immigration to say retrospectively that people who voted for remain didn't really want to remain when they voted remain at the time. The vagueness of choice was all around Brexit and what that would actually mean and look like with a number of proposals being bandied about. Not all leave voters wanted the hard Brexit we're pursuing. Remain voters wanted to remain. The fact that some are now resigned to leaving and have a view on what that should look like is irrelevant.


Thanks for completely ignoring the well researched data.

I haven't said that people voted remain when they didn't want to remain. That would be a silly thing to suggest and would simply be not true. They voted to remain.

But we have moved on. We voted to leave and now we need to understand what type of Brexit people want. Data clearly shows that most would prefer the hard option. Surely we should pursue the type of brexit preferred by the majority of both leave and remain voters?

But again we are straying from the main point. both the leaders of the leave campaign, Gove and Boris, and the leaders of the remain campaign, Cameron and Osborne we explicitly clear that a vote to leave the EU would mean leaving the single market.

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:28 - Nov 22 with 368 viewsLibero

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 21:02 - Nov 21 by Herbivore

I see what you're trying to do here but I'm not biting.


Good on you Herbivore, in my experience it's the best way of dealing with him.
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:32 - Nov 22 with 362 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:28 - Nov 22 by Libero

Good on you Herbivore, in my experience it's the best way of dealing with him.


Grown ups are trying to have a debate libbers.

I’ll let you’ve when we dumb down and you can join in with a meme or two so you don’t feel left out mate.

Poll: Who will be out of their job first?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:38 - Nov 22 with 353 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:09 - Nov 22 by Herbivore

Sorry Glassers but that's a load of old nonsense. Remain voters voted remain, which was a clear and simple choice. It was known that remain simply meant remaining, we had no confessions on free movement after Cameron's negotiations with the EU and people voted with that knowledge, no suggestions were made that a remain vote would lead to staying but with restriction on free movement. You can't use subsequent polls on views on immigration to say retrospectively that people who voted for remain didn't really want to remain when they voted remain at the time. The vagueness of choice was all around Brexit and what that would actually mean and look like with a number of proposals being bandied about. Not all leave voters wanted the hard Brexit we're pursuing. Remain voters wanted to remain. The fact that some are now resigned to leaving and have a view on what that should look like is irrelevant.


Maybe those in Glasgow had a different referedndum pair from the rest of us?
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:42 - Nov 22 with 348 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:20 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

Thanks for completely ignoring the well researched data.

I haven't said that people voted remain when they didn't want to remain. That would be a silly thing to suggest and would simply be not true. They voted to remain.

But we have moved on. We voted to leave and now we need to understand what type of Brexit people want. Data clearly shows that most would prefer the hard option. Surely we should pursue the type of brexit preferred by the majority of both leave and remain voters?

But again we are straying from the main point. both the leaders of the leave campaign, Gove and Boris, and the leaders of the remain campaign, Cameron and Osborne we explicitly clear that a vote to leave the EU would mean leaving the single market.


The fact that parliament last night voted to abandon the EU Human Rights charter is somethign that was never discussed. Now it has happened - what will that mean for the millions who would like to have some protectiosn the EUC offered?
The right wing have been chipping away at our rights ever since 197. You advice to your children should be "get out while you can"

Anyone who has any consideration this is going to be good for the British people is daft or a liar
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:44 - Nov 22 with 346 viewsHerbivore

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:20 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

Thanks for completely ignoring the well researched data.

I haven't said that people voted remain when they didn't want to remain. That would be a silly thing to suggest and would simply be not true. They voted to remain.

But we have moved on. We voted to leave and now we need to understand what type of Brexit people want. Data clearly shows that most would prefer the hard option. Surely we should pursue the type of brexit preferred by the majority of both leave and remain voters?

But again we are straying from the main point. both the leaders of the leave campaign, Gove and Boris, and the leaders of the remain campaign, Cameron and Osborne we explicitly clear that a vote to leave the EU would mean leaving the single market.


No point in me continuing to talk at you whilst you have your fingers in your ears. Have a good day, Glassers.

EDIT: I'll offer an analogy to highlight to you the irrelevance of the polls you posted up. Imagine Town fans were offered the chance to either stay in the Championship with things remaining largely the same or to be relegated to League 1. 52% of fans vote to get relegated, some because they just want a change, many because they want a change of manager and some new, fresh ideas, some want us to blood the youngsters, some think we'll be better off in the long run if we take a hit in the short-term. You vote to stay in the Championship, but unluckily for you you've lost. You're now asked what you'd like to happen and you say you want to see us play the youngsters. That doesn't mean you wanted us to go down, it simply means that as we're going down you may as well have a view on what you'd like to see next. Nor does it mean that those that did vote for us to go down had a coherent and unified vision for what they hoped to achieve by us going down. If they'd been offered different options for going down (e.g. we go down but Mick stays, we go down but have to scrap the academy) then perhaps the outcome of the original vote would have been quite different. That's the point that's been made in this thread, the referendum was not fit for purpose - both in its format and how the campaign informed voters - to enable a proper choice on such an important issue. Opinion polls, which have hardly been great indicators of anything in recent years, now showing a small majority in favour of a hard Brexit is not a mandate for hard Brexit.
[Post edited 22 Nov 9:54]

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:46 - Nov 22 with 343 viewsBOjK

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 17:50 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue

Farage wasn't allowed anywhere near the official leave campaign.

However, the Open Britain video which you have taken the Farage quote from was taken apart by Andrew Neil on the Beeb as being clipped to distort entirely what they were saying.

You weren't able to watch the earlier video but I strongly suggest you watch this as it give the full unedited Farage quote.



And if you can't watch the video at work here is a transcript.

AN: How many of these 12 statements were made during the referendum campaign?

JM: I don’t know but some of Dan Hannan’s were

AN: Well actually not one was made during the referendum campaign and indeed only two of the 12 statements were recorded after royal assent had been given to the referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

JM: Throughout the campaign, Leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian model and as you know Norway is in the single market but not in the EU. The Leave campaign went out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading arrangement they wanted to see in the future with Europe.

AN: But isn’t it interesting and does it not undermine your case that none of the 12 statements were made during the campaign itself when people were giving really serious thought to such matters?

Things didn’t get much better for McGrory when Neil proceeded to play in full several video clips that feature in the video:

AN: You misrepresented Owen Paterson, didn’t you? You showed him saying ‘only a madman would leave the single market’ then stopped it there because he goes on to say that of course we won’t leave in the sense of continuing to have access.

JM: I don’t think he was talking about access. He’s there talking about membership.
AN: He doesn’t use the word membership at all.
Neil suggested that Open Britain had also cut clips from Nigel Farage and Vote Leave’s Matthew Elliott in a misleading manner:

AN: How did you think you would get away with this distortion?

JM: The whole point of the clip — or the clips — is to point out they don’t have a definitive position.


I'd be grateful for a reply to this post thanks.
[Post edited 21 Nov 17:55]


*sigh*. Maybe they did distort things. I dunno.

The salient point is this one though which I don't think you can disagree with:

"The Leave campaign went out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading arrangement they wanted to see in the future with Europe."

This was exactly my understanding from the referendum campaign itself, where many on the leave side left the door open for continued full membership of the single market.

Blog: [Blog] Keep Calm and Carry on (Or Why the Club is Not in Crisis from Top to Bottom)

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:47 - Nov 22 with 340 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 08:58 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

Firstly there was no vote for hard or soft Brexit. There was a vote for Brexit. People prioritised the reasons to vote leave.

The three reasons for voting leave were immigration, you cannot control EU immigration if you are in the single market, Sovereignty, UK law is subservient to the European Court if you are in the single market, and the ability to strike our own trade deals, you cannot strike your own trade deals if you are in the single market.

As Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell have both said; to stay in the single market is not respecting the referendum result.

Now you speak of needing 95% of leave voters to have a mandate for a hard Brexit. You are assuming that 100% of remain voters want a soft Brexit. That isn't the case.

They may have voted to remain in the EU but now we have voted to leave they are split ion what type of Brexit we should have.

There are a number of interesting surveys. I'll give you two.

Firstly a survey published in the Guardian and carried out by NatCen, the independent social research agency, and overseen by the elections expert John Curtice. This revealed that 55% of those who voted remain, said they would like to see limits on EU immigration. So over half of remain voters want an end to freedom of movement. As we have established you cannot end freedom of movement and retain membership of the single market.

The survey also found that if voters were forced to choose, they would be split almost evenly on which they would prioritise. Asked whether the UK should compromise and “allow people from the EU freely to come and live and work in return for allowing UK firms to trade freely with the EU”, 70% of remain voters said yes; the same proportion of leave voters said no.

The total number of people who voted in the referendum was 33551983. A majority vote would be 16775992. The number voting leave was17,410,742. The number voting remain was 16,141,241.

So if 30% of remain voters are against staying in the single market if it means a continuation of freedom of movement we have 4842372. Add those remainers to the 70% of leavers are against staying in the single market if it means a continuation of freedom of movement, 12,187,519, we have 17,029,891. A clear majority for leaving the single market.


Secondly, a project by the London School of Economics and Oxford University found that when those surveyed were asked in detail what they want from the negotiations, there is more support for harder Brexit options because Leavers and a significant number of Remainers back them.

58% of leave voters and 51% of remain voters want full control of borders and fewer EU migrants

57% of leave voters and 53% of remain voters want to leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ

That works out at 70% of all voters who prefer the two above options. Again a clear majority.


But we are straying into post referendum territory. My original point was that both the leaders of the leave campaign, Gove and Boris, and the leaders of the remain campaign, Cameron and Osborne we explicitly clear that a vote to leave the EU would mean leaving the single market.


& if you took time to compile that rubbish to suit your arguement you are as daft as a brush
Oooop's I forgot - it's the official handout of the Guido lie chamber

Behave yourself
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:54 - Nov 22 with 330 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:47 - Nov 22 by No9

& if you took time to compile that rubbish to suit your arguement you are as daft as a brush
Oooop's I forgot - it's the official handout of the Guido lie chamber

Behave yourself


70% from the Guardian and 20% from the Torygraph. You have also referred to the NatCen survey when some of it's findings have suited your argument. Like the IFS on Labour's manifesto, do you rubbish a source when it disagrees with your argument and then quote it as being definitive when it suits?

Now rather than the Libbyesque dumming down, how about actually addressing the points raised and challenging them with a well considered rebuttal?

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:57 - Nov 22 with 327 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:44 - Nov 22 by Herbivore

No point in me continuing to talk at you whilst you have your fingers in your ears. Have a good day, Glassers.

EDIT: I'll offer an analogy to highlight to you the irrelevance of the polls you posted up. Imagine Town fans were offered the chance to either stay in the Championship with things remaining largely the same or to be relegated to League 1. 52% of fans vote to get relegated, some because they just want a change, many because they want a change of manager and some new, fresh ideas, some want us to blood the youngsters, some think we'll be better off in the long run if we take a hit in the short-term. You vote to stay in the Championship, but unluckily for you you've lost. You're now asked what you'd like to happen and you say you want to see us play the youngsters. That doesn't mean you wanted us to go down, it simply means that as we're going down you may as well have a view on what you'd like to see next. Nor does it mean that those that did vote for us to go down had a coherent and unified vision for what they hoped to achieve by us going down. If they'd been offered different options for going down (e.g. we go down but Mick stays, we go down but have to scrap the academy) then perhaps the outcome of the original vote would have been quite different. That's the point that's been made in this thread, the referendum was not fit for purpose - both in its format and how the campaign informed voters - to enable a proper choice on such an important issue. Opinion polls, which have hardly been great indicators of anything in recent years, now showing a small majority in favour of a hard Brexit is not a mandate for hard Brexit.
[Post edited 22 Nov 9:54]


My fingers aren't in my ears. You haven't managed to persuade me that the leaders of both the remain and leave campaigns didn't state that a vote to leave was a vote t leave the single market.

I've linked quotes from all of the major players. I have also linked surveys since the vote was taken that shows a majority would prefer a hard brexit to a soft one.

If you can provide evidence to counter than I am more than open to persuasion.

*****Hey Herbie I've seen your edit and I am just leaving for the office. I promise to give it a good read and reply to you later on.
[Post edited 22 Nov 9:58]

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:59 - Nov 22 with 325 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:54 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

70% from the Guardian and 20% from the Torygraph. You have also referred to the NatCen survey when some of it's findings have suited your argument. Like the IFS on Labour's manifesto, do you rubbish a source when it disagrees with your argument and then quote it as being definitive when it suits?

Now rather than the Libbyesque dumming down, how about actually addressing the points raised and challenging them with a well considered rebuttal?


The leave campaign was one pack of lies which you have perpetrated.
When asked what the upside is for the Uk you disappear.
Now we are going to lose the portection of Human Rights where is the upside for the ordinary bloke?
Doesn't this more or less skam the door shut on any 'deal' with the UK when having acceptable Human rights policies have been part of membership?
Weren't most of the HR in teh various EU stages of progress from UK sources?

You ignore all this don't you- to repeat, tell your children to leave, if they want a decent life that is
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:16 - Nov 22 with 303 viewsHerbivore

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:57 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

My fingers aren't in my ears. You haven't managed to persuade me that the leaders of both the remain and leave campaigns didn't state that a vote to leave was a vote t leave the single market.

I've linked quotes from all of the major players. I have also linked surveys since the vote was taken that shows a majority would prefer a hard brexit to a soft one.

If you can provide evidence to counter than I am more than open to persuasion.

*****Hey Herbie I've seen your edit and I am just leaving for the office. I promise to give it a good read and reply to you later on.
[Post edited 22 Nov 9:58]


Your first paragraph is simply the narrow take you've decided to bring to the table as it's more readily defensible and devoid of context. There were numerous voices on the leave side and a number of different versions of Brexit proposed, it is false to claim that the vote for Brexit was a straightforward vote for hard Brexit given the information and disinformation out there at the time. You're also conveniently ignoring that any warnings from Cameron about leaving the single market were treated as 'scaremongering' and so him saying we would leave is no real evidence that people felt certain that leaving the single market was the only possible outcome of a leave vote.

Your surveys post-referendum are irrelevant for reasons already outlined in my previous posts.

Poll: Should someone on benefits earn more than David Cameron?

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:20 - Nov 22 with 289 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:16 - Nov 22 by Herbivore

Your first paragraph is simply the narrow take you've decided to bring to the table as it's more readily defensible and devoid of context. There were numerous voices on the leave side and a number of different versions of Brexit proposed, it is false to claim that the vote for Brexit was a straightforward vote for hard Brexit given the information and disinformation out there at the time. You're also conveniently ignoring that any warnings from Cameron about leaving the single market were treated as 'scaremongering' and so him saying we would leave is no real evidence that people felt certain that leaving the single market was the only possible outcome of a leave vote.

Your surveys post-referendum are irrelevant for reasons already outlined in my previous posts.


Do you think they gave much thought to the human rights of the "average" Greek "bloke" (and blokess) ?

Edit....ment to be a reply to no9
[Post edited 22 Nov 10:38]
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 10:30 - Nov 22 with 272 viewstcblue

This thread will do. Given that the more vocal Brexiteers are somewhat demanding that Remainers "get stuck in" with "making Brexit a success", I wonder if anyone who voted to leave has any top tips on how we will be managing transition without the EMA?

Glassers?

Poll: What is your location?

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:34 - Nov 22 with 259 viewsStokieBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:20 - Nov 22 by BanksterDebtSlave

Do you think they gave much thought to the human rights of the "average" Greek "bloke" (and blokess) ?

Edit....ment to be a reply to no9
[Post edited 22 Nov 10:38]


You always seem to revert back to the Greek situation but you never say what should have happened. There were only two choices:

1) Basically do what the EU say and get given the money they needed through EU debt at a cheap rate.

2) Default on all their debt, leave the EU and the EUR and devalue their currency.

Which of those do you think they should have done or do you have a third option?

In the end Greece is having to deal with living outside it's means for a long time and for internal issues with tax collection which are endemic in Greece. Greece and more recently Venezuela (who have now defaulted on their debt) are examples of what can happen if you live well outside your means based on cheap debt. It should be a warning to anyone looking at Labour's borrow and spend manifesto.

I will caveat that point with the fact the UK controls it's own currency so can devalue out of any crisis but it would be horrific for the country.

SB

Nothing else needed

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:44 - Nov 22 with 246 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:34 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue

You always seem to revert back to the Greek situation but you never say what should have happened. There were only two choices:

1) Basically do what the EU say and get given the money they needed through EU debt at a cheap rate.

2) Default on all their debt, leave the EU and the EUR and devalue their currency.

Which of those do you think they should have done or do you have a third option?

In the end Greece is having to deal with living outside it's means for a long time and for internal issues with tax collection which are endemic in Greece. Greece and more recently Venezuela (who have now defaulted on their debt) are examples of what can happen if you live well outside your means based on cheap debt. It should be a warning to anyone looking at Labour's borrow and spend manifesto.

I will caveat that point with the fact the UK controls it's own currency so can devalue out of any crisis but it would be horrific for the country.

SB


My post was about "human rights", whatever they are supposed to be !(and that somehow without the all powerful EU we won't have any.)

Edit....as you have asked again my answer at the time was 2
[Post edited 22 Nov 10:58]
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:46 - Nov 22 with 244 viewsStokieBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:44 - Nov 22 by BanksterDebtSlave

My post was about "human rights", whatever they are supposed to be !(and that somehow without the all powerful EU we won't have any.)

Edit....as you have asked again my answer at the time was 2
[Post edited 22 Nov 10:58]


Looked more like you took a vote on human rights and used it as a platform to bang the "look at what the EU did to Greece" drum which has very little to do with human rights.

Would still be interested to see your answer to the post though, pretty sure you've never given it even though you've raised this point about 10 times.

Apologies if I've missed it in another thread over the months.

SB

Nothing else needed

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