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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:57 - Nov 22 with 2980 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:46 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue

Looked more like you took a vote on human rights and used it as a platform to bang the "look at what the EU did to Greece" drum which has very little to do with human rights.

Would still be interested to see your answer to the post though, pretty sure you've never given it even though you've raised this point about 10 times.

Apologies if I've missed it in another thread over the months.

SB


Definitely 2......as 1 was essentially selling off Greece to help make good the balance sheets of banks (esp Deutschebank), a larger scale version of austerity here for the benefit of our too big to fail institutions.....Icelandic style. The rot has to come out sometime and will now br even worse when it eventually does. Imho

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:02 - Nov 22 with 2968 viewsStokieBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:57 - Nov 22 by BanksterDebtSlave

Definitely 2......as 1 was essentially selling off Greece to help make good the balance sheets of banks (esp Deutschebank), a larger scale version of austerity here for the benefit of our too big to fail institutions.....Icelandic style. The rot has to come out sometime and will now br even worse when it eventually does. Imho


I'm sorry but that's not really true is it. (1) is not selling off Greece to bail out banks, it's making Greece pay for the debt they have taken (nobody made them take that debt and live hugely beyond their means for so long). You are saying there should be no national or personal responsibility and I take issue with this. They could have avoided ever getting into this situation by balancing their books at least occasionally.

As for (2), it does have some merit in that they would have their own currency and would be competitive for tourism and manufacturing. However if they defaulted they would no longer be able to borrow in the markets so balancing the books would involve massive inflation - that would have been horrific for Greece in the shorter/medium term.

So essentially, who is the fault with, the lender or the borrower? You seem to think it's always with the lender and I think this is clearly untrue.

SB

Avatar - IC484 - Horsehead and Flame Nebulae

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:10 - Nov 22 with 2947 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:02 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue

I'm sorry but that's not really true is it. (1) is not selling off Greece to bail out banks, it's making Greece pay for the debt they have taken (nobody made them take that debt and live hugely beyond their means for so long). You are saying there should be no national or personal responsibility and I take issue with this. They could have avoided ever getting into this situation by balancing their books at least occasionally.

As for (2), it does have some merit in that they would have their own currency and would be competitive for tourism and manufacturing. However if they defaulted they would no longer be able to borrow in the markets so balancing the books would involve massive inflation - that would have been horrific for Greece in the shorter/medium term.

So essentially, who is the fault with, the lender or the borrower? You seem to think it's always with the lender and I think this is clearly untrue.

SB


Blessed be the money lenders......they must always get their pound of flesh. Irresponsible loans need to face the risk of default. (F#ck'em ....pardon my french). The scales have been massively over balanced for long enough, they have had plenty back and never seem to face the losses.

Edit.....these leeches are essentially lending money extracted from the commons and then punishing the commoners for not giving them more ....... string'em up (notyou though Stokie, )..... sorry gotta go (buying rope )!
[Post edited 22 Nov 2017 11:14]

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:45 - Nov 22 with 2921 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:20 - Nov 22 by BanksterDebtSlave

Do you think they gave much thought to the human rights of the "average" Greek "bloke" (and blokess) ?

Edit....ment to be a reply to no9
[Post edited 22 Nov 2017 10:38]


Take a look at the Human Rights Charter.
One of the mistakes many people make is that they think Human Rights only apply to others & not to them.
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 11:50 - Nov 22 with 2911 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:20 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

Thanks for completely ignoring the well researched data.

I haven't said that people voted remain when they didn't want to remain. That would be a silly thing to suggest and would simply be not true. They voted to remain.

But we have moved on. We voted to leave and now we need to understand what type of Brexit people want. Data clearly shows that most would prefer the hard option. Surely we should pursue the type of brexit preferred by the majority of both leave and remain voters?

But again we are straying from the main point. both the leaders of the leave campaign, Gove and Boris, and the leaders of the remain campaign, Cameron and Osborne we explicitly clear that a vote to leave the EU would mean leaving the single market.


Where is the data that shows most people want the 'hard' option?
How many people including you atually understand what the 'hard' option could mean?
Please tell us

As far as Johnson & Gove are conceredn there is sufficient evidence to suggest they have missed their position of powerin public office. Suppose that case is brought (not the the establishment that protect them will allow that) what would be our position = to uphold the law or to let the lawbreakers, who are making your case to be alowed to walk free?
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:57 - Nov 22 with 2902 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 10:16 - Nov 22 by Herbivore

Your first paragraph is simply the narrow take you've decided to bring to the table as it's more readily defensible and devoid of context. There were numerous voices on the leave side and a number of different versions of Brexit proposed, it is false to claim that the vote for Brexit was a straightforward vote for hard Brexit given the information and disinformation out there at the time. You're also conveniently ignoring that any warnings from Cameron about leaving the single market were treated as 'scaremongering' and so him saying we would leave is no real evidence that people felt certain that leaving the single market was the only possible outcome of a leave vote.

Your surveys post-referendum are irrelevant for reasons already outlined in my previous posts.


Your analogy with relegation is perfectly reasonable with regards to those who voted to stay in the Championship. I completely agree with you that those who voted to remain did so because they wanted to remain, although for every leaver who voted because of the Boris Bus I'm sure you can find a remain voter who voted to stay because of project fear. These people will make up a small minority on both sides.

I hadn't said that people who voted to remain secretly wanted to leave. I'm with you on this. But there is a majority of people who voted remain that now accept the result of the vote and have an idea of the type of Brexit they'd like to see. And numerous survey's have shown that Brexit to be a hard Brexit. Added to the majority of leave voters who have shown a similar preference then surely we should respect the majority?

I'm also of the view, and I didn't always agree with this, that in order for the country to proceed and put an end to this once and for all, that a second referendum should be held in the event of the negotiations producing NO DEAL.

But I cannot be persuaded that both camps made it abundantly clear that a vote to leave the EU would be a vote to leave the single market. Even if people on the fringes of both campaigns raised the possibility of a Norway style deal it was made perfectly clear by the UK government and the EU that you cannot be in the single market without freedom of movement or being under the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

If we have to keep freedom of movement, the ECJ and have no ability to make our own trade deals then there is simply no pint in leaving the EU. We will have to abide by all of the rules whilst making none of the decisions. That's ok for a 2 year transition period but not for a future relationship.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 11:58 - Nov 22 with 2902 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 10:30 - Nov 22 by tcblue

This thread will do. Given that the more vocal Brexiteers are somewhat demanding that Remainers "get stuck in" with "making Brexit a success", I wonder if anyone who voted to leave has any top tips on how we will be managing transition without the EMA?

Glassers?


Dealt with yesterday mate.

Brexit depatures, EU FInance and Health agencies leave London by No9 21 Nov 2017 14:49
Another thing the Brexiteers said would not happen.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-netherlands-amsterdam-ema-benefit-eu-agencies-relocate-from-uk-london-european-council-a8066191.html


Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:09 - Nov 22 with 2887 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:57 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

Your analogy with relegation is perfectly reasonable with regards to those who voted to stay in the Championship. I completely agree with you that those who voted to remain did so because they wanted to remain, although for every leaver who voted because of the Boris Bus I'm sure you can find a remain voter who voted to stay because of project fear. These people will make up a small minority on both sides.

I hadn't said that people who voted to remain secretly wanted to leave. I'm with you on this. But there is a majority of people who voted remain that now accept the result of the vote and have an idea of the type of Brexit they'd like to see. And numerous survey's have shown that Brexit to be a hard Brexit. Added to the majority of leave voters who have shown a similar preference then surely we should respect the majority?

I'm also of the view, and I didn't always agree with this, that in order for the country to proceed and put an end to this once and for all, that a second referendum should be held in the event of the negotiations producing NO DEAL.

But I cannot be persuaded that both camps made it abundantly clear that a vote to leave the EU would be a vote to leave the single market. Even if people on the fringes of both campaigns raised the possibility of a Norway style deal it was made perfectly clear by the UK government and the EU that you cannot be in the single market without freedom of movement or being under the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

If we have to keep freedom of movement, the ECJ and have no ability to make our own trade deals then there is simply no pint in leaving the EU. We will have to abide by all of the rules whilst making none of the decisions. That's ok for a 2 year transition period but not for a future relationship.


On one hand you say we can't make our own trade deals, on the other hand you boast that America (not in the EU) is our biggest single customer.
That means being in the EU isn't holding the UK back as far as trade is concerned & certainly hasn't precluded the tories from multiplying the arams sales and providing personal advisors to Saudi Arabia.

So your trade deal argument doesn't hold water does it?
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:18 - Nov 22 with 2876 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:02 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue

I'm sorry but that's not really true is it. (1) is not selling off Greece to bail out banks, it's making Greece pay for the debt they have taken (nobody made them take that debt and live hugely beyond their means for so long). You are saying there should be no national or personal responsibility and I take issue with this. They could have avoided ever getting into this situation by balancing their books at least occasionally.

As for (2), it does have some merit in that they would have their own currency and would be competitive for tourism and manufacturing. However if they defaulted they would no longer be able to borrow in the markets so balancing the books would involve massive inflation - that would have been horrific for Greece in the shorter/medium term.

So essentially, who is the fault with, the lender or the borrower? You seem to think it's always with the lender and I think this is clearly untrue.

SB


Isn't is how the debtor is percieved in the world?
The national debt was circa £0.8trn when Cameron went into No 10. It is not circa £1.8 trn = more than double.
& the balance of payments is, if annualised circa £40bn with productivity circa 20 to 25% below our competitors.
If most other nations had that sort of economic mess, wouldn't the gamblers in the city would be screaming blue murder?
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 12:26 - Nov 22 with 2870 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 11:50 - Nov 22 by No9

Where is the data that shows most people want the 'hard' option?
How many people including you atually understand what the 'hard' option could mean?
Please tell us

As far as Johnson & Gove are conceredn there is sufficient evidence to suggest they have missed their position of powerin public office. Suppose that case is brought (not the the establishment that protect them will allow that) what would be our position = to uphold the law or to let the lawbreakers, who are making your case to be alowed to walk free?


I did give the data source in the previous thread.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:42 - Nov 22 with 2852 viewsHerbivore

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 11:57 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

Your analogy with relegation is perfectly reasonable with regards to those who voted to stay in the Championship. I completely agree with you that those who voted to remain did so because they wanted to remain, although for every leaver who voted because of the Boris Bus I'm sure you can find a remain voter who voted to stay because of project fear. These people will make up a small minority on both sides.

I hadn't said that people who voted to remain secretly wanted to leave. I'm with you on this. But there is a majority of people who voted remain that now accept the result of the vote and have an idea of the type of Brexit they'd like to see. And numerous survey's have shown that Brexit to be a hard Brexit. Added to the majority of leave voters who have shown a similar preference then surely we should respect the majority?

I'm also of the view, and I didn't always agree with this, that in order for the country to proceed and put an end to this once and for all, that a second referendum should be held in the event of the negotiations producing NO DEAL.

But I cannot be persuaded that both camps made it abundantly clear that a vote to leave the EU would be a vote to leave the single market. Even if people on the fringes of both campaigns raised the possibility of a Norway style deal it was made perfectly clear by the UK government and the EU that you cannot be in the single market without freedom of movement or being under the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

If we have to keep freedom of movement, the ECJ and have no ability to make our own trade deals then there is simply no pint in leaving the EU. We will have to abide by all of the rules whilst making none of the decisions. That's ok for a 2 year transition period but not for a future relationship.


We'll have to agree to disagree on the alleged clarity of a leave vote meaning a guarantee of leaving the single market. We'll also have to agree to disagree that polling gives a government a mandate in respect of going after a hard Brexit.

Poll: Should someone on benefits earn more than David Cameron?
Blog: Where Did It All Go Wrong for Paul Hurst?

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 12:42 - Nov 22 with 2853 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 12:26 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

I did give the data source in the previous thread.


I didn't see it & I doubt it is reliable as the situation is mobile not static.
I have seen nothing from you or the rest of the leave campaign that could be considered to be remotely reliable - who conducted the survey?
So I wouldn't put too much faith in data that was probably probably out of date before it was published and was anyway based on a selected survey.

What happend is the Leave campaign funding is found to be illegal?
Do you support the law of the land or, whatever supports your arguement?
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 12:59 - Nov 22 with 2843 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 12:42 - Nov 22 by No9

I didn't see it & I doubt it is reliable as the situation is mobile not static.
I have seen nothing from you or the rest of the leave campaign that could be considered to be remotely reliable - who conducted the survey?
So I wouldn't put too much faith in data that was probably probably out of date before it was published and was anyway based on a selected survey.

What happend is the Leave campaign funding is found to be illegal?
Do you support the law of the land or, whatever supports your arguement?


How odd. You called the data nonsense and yet I quoted the first source as reported in the Guardian and carried out by NatCen. And the second source as the London School, of Economics.

You have used the same survey by NatCen to back up your arguments in the past. Now you call their data nonsense.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 13:02 - Nov 22 with 2836 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 12:42 - Nov 22 by Herbivore

We'll have to agree to disagree on the alleged clarity of a leave vote meaning a guarantee of leaving the single market. We'll also have to agree to disagree that polling gives a government a mandate in respect of going after a hard Brexit.


There is no problem agreeing to disagree.

As I say, unless we get a free trade deal with the EU then I think the only solution to this is a second referendum to put the debate to bed for a generation or so. If not I can see recrimination and arguments about who said what, and whose lies were bigger than the others, making this country a more fractious place to live.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 14:11 - Nov 22 with 2809 viewsHerbivore

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 13:02 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

There is no problem agreeing to disagree.

As I say, unless we get a free trade deal with the EU then I think the only solution to this is a second referendum to put the debate to bed for a generation or so. If not I can see recrimination and arguments about who said what, and whose lies were bigger than the others, making this country a more fractious place to live.


Whilst I agree with your second paragraph I struggle to see anyone in the current government having the balls to push for a second referendum. I think they all know it'd be political suicide despite being obviously very sensible.

Poll: Should someone on benefits earn more than David Cameron?
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 14:21 - Nov 22 with 2806 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 14:11 - Nov 22 by Herbivore

Whilst I agree with your second paragraph I struggle to see anyone in the current government having the balls to push for a second referendum. I think they all know it'd be political suicide despite being obviously very sensible.


We haven't had politicians with balls for some time. I refer you to Denis Healey on the austerity thread. His action in 1976/77 may well have been politically toxic but it was the right thing to do and he saved the economy.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 15:25 - Nov 22 with 2784 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 12:59 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

How odd. You called the data nonsense and yet I quoted the first source as reported in the Guardian and carried out by NatCen. And the second source as the London School, of Economics.

You have used the same survey by NatCen to back up your arguments in the past. Now you call their data nonsense.


Er, I said already I din't see where you have posted the origins of the data.
Not that, that changes my view on your posts as you still have not answered any of the important things.
As per usual.
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Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 15:49 - Nov 22 with 2774 viewsGlasgowBlue

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 15:25 - Nov 22 by No9

Er, I said already I din't see where you have posted the origins of the data.
Not that, that changes my view on your posts as you still have not answered any of the important things.
As per usual.


GB: Firstly a survey published in the Guardian and carried out by NatCen, the independent social research agency, and overseen by the elections expert John Curtice. This revealed that 55% of those who voted remain, said they would like to see limits on EU immigration.

No9: if you took time to compile that rubbish to suit your arguement you are as daft as a brush. Oooop's I forgot - it's the official handout of the Guido lie chamber

I give up on you. I really do.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

0
Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 16:20 - Nov 22 with 2757 viewsNo9

Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 15:49 - Nov 22 by GlasgowBlue

GB: Firstly a survey published in the Guardian and carried out by NatCen, the independent social research agency, and overseen by the elections expert John Curtice. This revealed that 55% of those who voted remain, said they would like to see limits on EU immigration.

No9: if you took time to compile that rubbish to suit your arguement you are as daft as a brush. Oooop's I forgot - it's the official handout of the Guido lie chamber

I give up on you. I really do.


All you need to do, instead of giving up, is to answer a few questions relavant to the stuff you post. Is that too much to ask?
You are always pointing the finger and demanding people respond to you but you never reciprocate.
I have asked many questions about Brexit, fair questions, you never answer anything.

I woul remind you that your reliance on things like polls has shown you to be widly inaccurate.

Now, given that the chancellor today forecast that, over the next 3 to 5 years gdp is going to fall year on year &, if this is i line with the inaccuracies of government forecasts over the last 7 years how is Brexit going to help the ordinary household?
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