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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 00:10 - Nov 21 with 9791 views | BlueBadger |
In all fairness, the polls at the start of the campaign indicated a huge loss for Labour. A combination of the most inept Tory campaign since William Hague's 2001 campaign, a leader with less visibility than Jeremy Hunt during an NHS crisis and less charisma than a hi-fi enthusiast and a solid campaign from Labour focusing on positive campaigning and keeping the likes of McDonnell(I don't recall seeing him at all during the campaign - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here) and Abbott(eventually) well out of the public eye.
I'm yet to be convinced that he's a hugely competent leader(no one competent would led the aforementioned McDonnell and Abbot, for example, anywhere near the top table) and I'm still hugely frustrated at the Labour front bench's apparent inability to truly expose and oppose an inept, squabbling and arguably corrupt Tory cabinet(particularly before the election - some strong performers on the front bench would have minced the likes of Johnson, Hunt, Fox, Davies and Patel) but performances(starter is performing manfully despite the fact that his party are as equally clueless as to what they actually WANT from Brexit) do seem to have improved somewhat since June. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 0:14]
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| on 00:17 - Nov 21 with 9779 views | _ |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 00:10 - Nov 21 by BlueBadger |
In all fairness, the polls at the start of the campaign indicated a huge loss for Labour. A combination of the most inept Tory campaign since William Hague's 2001 campaign, a leader with less visibility than Jeremy Hunt during an NHS crisis and less charisma than a hi-fi enthusiast and a solid campaign from Labour focusing on positive campaigning and keeping the likes of McDonnell(I don't recall seeing him at all during the campaign - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here) and Abbott(eventually) well out of the public eye.
I'm yet to be convinced that he's a hugely competent leader(no one competent would led the aforementioned McDonnell and Abbot, for example, anywhere near the top table) and I'm still hugely frustrated at the Labour front bench's apparent inability to truly expose and oppose an inept, squabbling and arguably corrupt Tory cabinet(particularly before the election - some strong performers on the front bench would have minced the likes of Johnson, Hunt, Fox, Davies and Patel) but performances(starter is performing manfully despite the fact that his party are as equally clueless as to what they actually WANT from Brexit) do seem to have improved somewhat since June. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 0:14]
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 00:23 - Nov 21 with 9773 views | BlueBadger |
I'm broadly sympathetic to a lot of them, but I've spent too long working in a pragmatic trade to not get pragmatic with some of the more absurd thinking. The vague notions about how to renationalise the utilities(a £60+bn buyout, which is what John McDonnel seems to favour is utter insanity and not an overly smart use of public money for something which would take decades to pay for itself. A smarter move(to my, admittedly near-completely-ignorant-as-to-how-these-things-work mind) would be to install state-run not-for-profit providers and watch the rest wither away. | |
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| on 00:28 - Nov 21 with 9767 views | _ |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 00:23 - Nov 21 by BlueBadger |
I'm broadly sympathetic to a lot of them, but I've spent too long working in a pragmatic trade to not get pragmatic with some of the more absurd thinking. The vague notions about how to renationalise the utilities(a £60+bn buyout, which is what John McDonnel seems to favour is utter insanity and not an overly smart use of public money for something which would take decades to pay for itself. A smarter move(to my, admittedly near-completely-ignorant-as-to-how-these-things-work mind) would be to install state-run not-for-profit providers and watch the rest wither away. |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 06:03 - Nov 21 with 9670 views | Ftnfwest |
It was even funnier when it happened to kinnock himself |  | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 08:34 - Nov 21 with 9541 views | StokieBlue |
Morning Libbers.
A few things:
"New Labour bellends" is not really the new understanding Labour party is it?
The policies sound nice but the IFS has said they cannot be paid for. The IFS had been used as the source against the Tories multiple times recently so should accept this analysis? It's easy to promise the moon but it's pretty hard to deliver it.
The conservatives are a shambles but they aren't clinging in to power. The had the most seats in the election and formed a government (DUP alliance isn't something I agree with though) which gives them 5 years. You seem to think they should call an election because you think Labour would do better? I think we are stuck with this shambles for a while yet - there is just too much going on and the political woes in Germany are not going to help either.
So you stand by JC stance and actions in brexit? I would have thought they were counter to yours?
SB [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 8:50]
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 08:39 - Nov 21 with 9532 views | StokieBlue |
See this is the issue I have. You've said there are logistical difficulties (huge understatement) but then said it's about hope.
Hope doesn't solve those logistical issues, you are saying you'll vote for a manifesto which you know they can't deliver but you hope they can.
How is that good? I understand the will for change you have but it has to be realistic and what Labour continually promises isn't. I think they might have more appeal if they rolled back some of the more socialist plans (the more pointless ones like renationalising Royal Mail) and focusing the money they will have on the things which are really important to them.
I guess I just see your first sentence as internally inconsistent.
SB [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 8:51]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 08:54 - Nov 21 with 9497 views | itfcjoe |
Lib Dems did, but seems that with the age of social media polarising everything now we are back to being effectively a 2 party state like the yanks are. |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:10 - Nov 21 with 9461 views | BOjK |
by "King" you mean "leader of the opposition" I take it. |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:15 - Nov 21 with 9446 views | chicoazul |
Still surprised so many pro-Remain people are pro the current Labour party. |  |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:16 - Nov 21 with 9445 views | BOjK |
"Despite my love for all things Corbyn there is certainly a lovely centre ground opening up for someone to be an alternative to Corbyn, maybe a new party? I think a sensible centre politics party would clean up at the moment, makes you wonder why nobody has gone for it really."
Maybe Labour should try occupying the centre ground and - I dunno - actually be in government, rather than having a left wing leadership , being in opposition and voting with the Tory government.
https://www.itv.com/news/2017-11-21/john-mcdonnell-customs-union-amendment/ [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 9:16]
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:17 - Nov 21 with 9440 views | hype313 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:15 - Nov 21 by chicoazul |
Still surprised so many pro-Remain people are pro the current Labour party. |
Indeed, if anyone wants a hard Brexit it's Corbyn.
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:18 - Nov 21 with 9431 views | chicoazul |
Feels like people have had enough of centrist politics. I think this may have been what Gove meant by "nobody likes experts" or whatever it was. The age of the technocrat seems to have past for now and we are a new era of straight up ideological warfare. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:20 - Nov 21 with 9421 views | chicoazul |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:17 - Nov 21 by hype313 |
Indeed, if anyone wants a hard Brexit it's Corbyn.
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But that tweet simply doesnt make sense because Labour heartlands voted in large part for Leave. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:24 - Nov 21 with 9415 views | BOjK |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:20 - Nov 21 by chicoazul |
But that tweet simply doesnt make sense because Labour heartlands voted in large part for Leave. |
But nobody voted to leave the single market or the customs union. That wasn't the question on the referendum. It could have been - but it wasn't.
I sometimes marvel at the genius of the Brexiteers who have successfully conflated in the public mind leaving the EU with leaving the single market and the customs union - when they went to great lengths to avoid giving any answers to these questions before the referendum. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 9:24]
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:28 - Nov 21 with 9401 views | No9 |
I watched that last night, it is not the sort of programme I would normally watch but I was intrigued by the fact that so many forecasters got it wrong = what happened.
What struck me throughout the showing was just how many white women were invovlved in getting people out to voe.
In the meetings the audience was very well attended by this group. The question therefore becomes are we watching a new activities? The hosuewife who has struggeld to make ends meet getting up of their bums to go out and change things?
It is abundantly clear to most people that the population is getting poorer and the few at the top are getting better off doing less. It is easy to be a millonaire in S. E. Englan but that doesn't mean you can afford to live.
When charities demonstrate the have-nots are now a serious forceto be reckoned with and the food banks are the only real rowth industry it is just a matter of time before things change -
In years gone by it was the marches of the unemployed now it seems to be Mrs Ordinary housewife ringing the changes. | | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:32 - Nov 21 with 9370 views | chicoazul |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:24 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
But nobody voted to leave the single market or the customs union. That wasn't the question on the referendum. It could have been - but it wasn't.
I sometimes marvel at the genius of the Brexiteers who have successfully conflated in the public mind leaving the EU with leaving the single market and the customs union - when they went to great lengths to avoid giving any answers to these questions before the referendum. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 9:24]
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Sorry but this feels like straw clutching. If you can point me to a poll that shows that people who voted Leave didn't mean leaving the single market and/or the customs union I would welcome it. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:40 - Nov 21 with 9348 views | hype313 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:24 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
But nobody voted to leave the single market or the customs union. That wasn't the question on the referendum. It could have been - but it wasn't.
I sometimes marvel at the genius of the Brexiteers who have successfully conflated in the public mind leaving the EU with leaving the single market and the customs union - when they went to great lengths to avoid giving any answers to these questions before the referendum. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 9:24]
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I think by leaving the EU on the whole, leaving the customs union and single market was a given. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:42 - Nov 21 with 9341 views | No9 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:24 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
But nobody voted to leave the single market or the customs union. That wasn't the question on the referendum. It could have been - but it wasn't.
I sometimes marvel at the genius of the Brexiteers who have successfully conflated in the public mind leaving the EU with leaving the single market and the customs union - when they went to great lengths to avoid giving any answers to these questions before the referendum. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 9:24]
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Having watched / listened to Henry Newman it is easy to understand that had the referedndum ballot been worded differntly and had the media presented both cases even handedly we would almost certianly be in a different place now.
It is becoming very apparent that the main Brexiteers -questionably funded- have very significant personal interests in how this pans out which of course makes them even more dedicated, come what may, to achieve their objective.
There look to be a number of crisis along the route which they avoid talking about, the Irish question not least.
The news yesterday that two EU institutions will now leave London for Amsterdam & paris will no doubt be a blessing when discussed with the Brexiteers. | | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:49 - Nov 21 with 9330 views | BOjK |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:32 - Nov 21 by chicoazul |
Sorry but this feels like straw clutching. If you can point me to a poll that shows that people who voted Leave didn't mean leaving the single market and/or the customs union I would welcome it. |
If only we had had a national poll on people's views on the EU where they could have been asked these things!
It doesn't take many people to vote "leave" whilst wanting to remain part of the single market/customs union for there to be a majority to stay in them.
"Only" 52% of people voted leave. If one in 25 of those people wanted to stay in the single market, then there would be a majority to do that. Boris spoke several times about remaining in the single market. As did Daniel Hannan. And even Farage.
https://quotebrexit.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/leave-campaigners-lets-stay-in-the-
(I know that is a fairly partisan blog, but I'm familiar with the quotes from other sources and believe them to be true. At the very least Leave gave mixed messages on this, and at worst were deliberately deceitful saying one thing knowing they would push for another).
What Theresa May could have done was to say that the referendum was clearly very close. Leave won, but only just, and so she was going to try and find a position that satisfied as many remainers and leavers as possible. Of course she didn't do that (despite being a remainer herself) and now seems to be driving us off a cliff in the process. | |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:50 - Nov 21 with 9326 views | BOjK |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:40 - Nov 21 by hype313 |
I think by leaving the EU on the whole, leaving the customs union and single market was a given. |
It most definitely was not.
Edit: Which proves my point! It is the genius of the brexiteers who have made this the received wisdom - when nobody was clear about this prior to the referendum. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 9:51]
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:53 - Nov 21 with 9312 views | Archer4721 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:16 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
"Despite my love for all things Corbyn there is certainly a lovely centre ground opening up for someone to be an alternative to Corbyn, maybe a new party? I think a sensible centre politics party would clean up at the moment, makes you wonder why nobody has gone for it really."
Maybe Labour should try occupying the centre ground and - I dunno - actually be in government, rather than having a left wing leadership , being in opposition and voting with the Tory government.
https://www.itv.com/news/2017-11-21/john-mcdonnell-customs-union-amendment/ [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 9:16]
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You're still not getting it are you. The voters don't want a Torylite alternative Labour Party as Miliband found out to his cost. Centrist policies are not working for normal working people. Austerity needs addressing and Corbyn is the only politician prepared to tackle it. |  | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:54 - Nov 21 with 9305 views | lowhouseblue |
the colour drained from neil's face because he realised that we hadn't just lost the 2017 election but the 2022 one as well. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:55 - Nov 21 with 9289 views | Archer4721 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything" on the BBC... on 09:54 - Nov 21 by lowhouseblue |
the colour drained from neil's face because he realised that we hadn't just lost the 2017 election but the 2022 one as well. |
"We"
Arf. | | | |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:58 - Nov 21 with 9271 views | No9 |
| Watching 'Labour - The Summer that Changed Everything on 09:50 - Nov 21 by BOjK |
It most definitely was not.
Edit: Which proves my point! It is the genius of the brexiteers who have made this the received wisdom - when nobody was clear about this prior to the referendum. [Post edited 21 Nov 2017 9:51]
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I have to agree with Hype 313, it is obvious to me that the Brexiteers would never accept anything less than a compleat and clean break with the EU.
Fox, Redwood, Cash, - the drivers have always made this clear.
To stay within the single marlet & customs union would frustrate their plans becuase one way or another thay would need to accept all or a greater part of EU philosophy which is what they are against.
The most singular incomprehensible thing about this is that so little has been done to challenge them on where they want to UkKto go. Although in the case of Fox & Redwood, if they got their way, we are likely to be Americans soon | | | |
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