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Theresa May has lost a Brexit vote in the Commons for the first time.
MPs voted to back the Dominic Grieve amendment by 309 votes to 305 - a majority of four. The amendment will curb some of the powers the government is giving itself in the EU withdrawal bill. Specifically, it means that although clause 9 of the bill gives ministers powers to implement the Brexit withdrawal agreement by order, the amendment that has been passed means says they can only exercise these powers “subject to the prior enactment of a statute by parliament approving the final terms of withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union.”
Opposition MPs also claim the amendment gives parliament a “meaningful vote” on the withdrawal agreement. This is contested because ministers say parliament is already going to get a meaningful vote. But what it will mean is that ministers will not be able to use the powers in clause 9 to implement the EU withdrawal bill by order until the Commons has passed the bill allowing this. See
Around a dozen Tory MPs rebelled, according to Labour.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2017 19:33]
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Theresa defeated.... on 09:39 - Dec 14 with 3719 views
Theresa defeated.... on 09:38 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont
Well, yes. That as well.
Odd that those facts/evidence still remain whereas I haven't heard much chest-beating about the new, marvelous trade possibilities in recent months ...
The idea that we would get better trade agreements with other countries and trade blocs than we would as part of the far bigger EU is shockingly silly. Ditto that our trade with the EU would also carry on in the same way as before but on our terms instead. Never mind climate change denial, that's getting into homeopathy and Flat Earth territory.
So, essentially what we're doing is paying upwards of £39bn to leave the world's largest free trade area(and by extension, dozens of other trade agreements) in order to negotiate poorer ones.
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
Theresa defeated.... on 09:42 - Dec 14 by BlueBadger
So, essentially what we're doing is paying upwards of £39bn to leave the world's largest free trade area(and by extension, dozens of other trade agreements) in order to negotiate poorer ones.
Theresa defeated.... on 09:42 - Dec 14 by BlueBadger
So, essentially what we're doing is paying upwards of £39bn to leave the world's largest free trade area(and by extension, dozens of other trade agreements) in order to negotiate poorer ones.
Yes. Because that's clearly the best way to turn our trade and budget deficit into a surplus and safeguard the interests of the country. And communities in the already most economically disadvantaged areas in the UK.
It would be funny if this was just in the political bubble and wasn't going to screw over real people. And specifically the younger and future generations - which seems to be the default setting now for winning votes from the rest of the country.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Theresa defeated.... on 09:49 - Dec 14 with 3676 views
Theresa defeated.... on 09:04 - Dec 14 by StokieBlue
The thing is, GB has a point although you are both looking at it from different angles.
You are right that legally the referendum could be ignored, however he is right that it was pretty categorically stated that the result would be implemented. That was is an implicit agreement.
Unfortunately ambiguity can be latched on by both sides and makes it harder to come to an agreement.
On the article 50 point, our legal representatives have said it can be repealed but what to the EU say? I seem to recall they said once it was triggered that was it and we would need to reapply to get back in (without all the benefits we have now).
SB
[Post edited 14 Dec 2017 9:05]
It was also explained that it was a once in a lifetime decision. It was made clear the electorate wouldn't get a second chance.
I voted for Brexit and so far things have gone very much as expected. The only real fear I had was that we didn't have enough experienced politicians/ civil servants to see it through. This still concerns me.
Should we have had a referendum NO. The pre referendum negotiations, if you can them that, highlighted the dangers of remaining. The EU is both expansive and inward looking hence they couldn't agree to change anything. The choice was take it(as it is) or leave. In reality leave was the best option.
It was clear that leave meant leaving the customs union. You leave a club you can't get the benefits of membership, but you can participate as a guest.
Theresa defeated.... on 09:47 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont
Yes. Because that's clearly the best way to turn our trade and budget deficit into a surplus and safeguard the interests of the country. And communities in the already most economically disadvantaged areas in the UK.
It would be funny if this was just in the political bubble and wasn't going to screw over real people. And specifically the younger and future generations - which seems to be the default setting now for winning votes from the rest of the country.
Still, it'll unite the parliamentary Conservative party.
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
Although it hasn't, it's even more split after last night.
It's almost as if the whole clusterf*ck was a poorly thought though farce implemented by incompetent opportunity politicians with no real thought for potential consequences.
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
Theresa defeated.... on 10:00 - Dec 14 by BlueBadger
It's almost as if the whole clusterf*ck was a poorly thought though farce implemented by incompetent opportunity politicians with no real thought for potential consequences.
Apparently not...
I put the interests of everyone in the UK before party loyalty this evening and voted for #A7
I have no problem with people like Anna Soubry and Ken Clarke in the Tory Party or Chuka Umunna and Hillary Benn in the Labour party who speak and vote with passion and commitment regarding the EU.
I disagree with them but they are perfectly entitled to their views. I'd much rather the leaving process was thoroughly discussed and debated. If that means it takes a little longer to leave then so be it. Far better that everyone has their say and we can move on from all the Boris Bus , Costa Del Sol expats and Russia bots excuses.
Theresa defeated.... on 09:49 - Dec 14 by Pinewoodblue
It was also explained that it was a once in a lifetime decision. It was made clear the electorate wouldn't get a second chance.
I voted for Brexit and so far things have gone very much as expected. The only real fear I had was that we didn't have enough experienced politicians/ civil servants to see it through. This still concerns me.
Should we have had a referendum NO. The pre referendum negotiations, if you can them that, highlighted the dangers of remaining. The EU is both expansive and inward looking hence they couldn't agree to change anything. The choice was take it(as it is) or leave. In reality leave was the best option.
It was clear that leave meant leaving the customs union. You leave a club you can't get the benefits of membership, but you can participate as a guest.
A few points from that.
Cameron, supported by the Tory party that we increasingly see is in a bit of a mess, was in "charge" of the pre-referendum negotiations so I'm skeptical about how professional and relevant our negotiations were. And arguably our current Brexit politicians have done far worse than that. On the outside, which was a position we cultivated even when we were in the EU, we really are p!ssing in the wind.
When you say that the EU is expansive and inward-looking what do you actually mean? Inward-looking in terms of looking after their citizens and member states or inward-looking in terms of not seeing the world for what is and where we fit in? Either way, the UK government has a much worse record.
"It was clear that leave meant leaving the customs union." That's just untrue. And there are plenty of examples of countries (Norway, Switzerland, Turkey first and foremost) that have picked and chosen how they want to be involved in the EU, EEA and EFTA, the Customs Union, Schengen etc. Hell, we're not even in Schengen now. The referendum was on the EU membership — no more, no less.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Theresa defeated.... on 10:16 - Dec 14 with 3616 views
Theresa defeated.... on 09:12 - Dec 14 by Archer4721
Those loveable Tories.
Sit back and watch them implode.
I wouldn't be so smug if I were you, a number of government MPs have just done exactly what you and your mate Fred told me they wouldn't do.
Labour criticize embarassing Brexit talks by BlueBadger6 Dec 2017 10:03 Horses*t, frankly.
They're not going to be in a position to do anything 'in government' about it for another 5 years. And it'll be too late by then.
They could actually do their jobs by acting like an opposition and OPPOSE a bad policy, by constantly ragging the government, organising a cross-party group(who are almost certainly the vast majority of MP's in the House) to oppose, criticise and vote down the current madness and by using their surprisingly good connection with people via the same non-traditional means they used to great effect in the election.
You and Fred are both shamelessly copping out and(in Fred's case) attempting a Glasgow Swerve on the whole thing.
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
Theresa defeated.... on 09:51 - Dec 14 by BlueBadger
Still, it'll unite the parliamentary Conservative party.
Yes. And I'm trying to work out what is worse: a weak, disunited Tory party or a strong one? Who knows what new clownf@ckery a strong Tory party can achieve?
They'll be faster, smoother and more ambitious at missing the point of government.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Theresa defeated.... on 10:58 - Dec 14 with 3565 views
Theresa defeated.... on 10:16 - Dec 14 by BlueBadger
I wouldn't be so smug if I were you, a number of government MPs have just done exactly what you and your mate Fred told me they wouldn't do.
Labour criticize embarassing Brexit talks by BlueBadger6 Dec 2017 10:03 Horses*t, frankly.
They're not going to be in a position to do anything 'in government' about it for another 5 years. And it'll be too late by then.
They could actually do their jobs by acting like an opposition and OPPOSE a bad policy, by constantly ragging the government, organising a cross-party group(who are almost certainly the vast majority of MP's in the House) to oppose, criticise and vote down the current madness and by using their surprisingly good connection with people via the same non-traditional means they used to great effect in the election.
You and Fred are both shamelessly copping out and(in Fred's case) attempting a Glasgow Swerve on the whole thing.
Smug? Far from it.
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Theresa defeated.... on 11:00 - Dec 14 with 3559 views
Perhaps if you were trolling you wouldn't mind answering the question properly? Genuinely interested.
A lot of people would be left very angry I imagine. It's tough to see, though, any way out of this that isn't going to leave a big chunk of the population deeply dissatisfied. Hard Brexit is looking increasingly impossible, a diluted Brexit won't please a lot of people and you have to begin to question if it's worth the time and money it'll cost to pursue a solution that sees us aligned to the EU and following a lot of their rules whilst having no say at the top table at all.
Theresa defeated.... on 09:16 - Dec 14 by GlasgowBlue
I'm not disagreeing. The leaflet highlights that the Prime Minister at the time said that the government would implement the decision of the referendum.
Not legally binding but a betrayal of trust that would bring the entire democratic process in this country down. We may as well have anarchy and revolution.
But that PM & his party ignored the electorate didn't they? They recommeded to remain and, their 2015 election manifesto was built on remaining in the EU both as a part of foreign & economic policies. Having been defeated in the referendum they were accordingly defeated on their earlier manifesto. Ignoring democracy, by saying "Hands up we lost"the tories decided to snub the electorate and decided it would be them who negotiated the departure from the EU and, visibly from what we can see on Parliament TV, they had no idea what this meant. We can see what an unholy and dishonest mess they are making of it & Mrs May hasn't got the courage or ability to stand up to the right of the party who are very keen to further their own aims. That isn't democracy it is a dictatorship- Time to change British politics for the better.
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Theresa defeated.... on 11:03 - Dec 14 with 3553 views
But that PM & his party ignored the electorate didn't they? They recommeded to remain and, their 2015 election manifesto was built on remaining in the EU both as a part of foreign & economic policies. Having been defeated in the referendum they were accordingly defeated on their earlier manifesto. Ignoring democracy, by saying "Hands up we lost"the tories decided to snub the electorate and decided it would be them who negotiated the departure from the EU and, visibly from what we can see on Parliament TV, they had no idea what this meant. We can see what an unholy and dishonest mess they are making of it & Mrs May hasn't got the courage or ability to stand up to the right of the party who are very keen to further their own aims. That isn't democracy it is a dictatorship- Time to change British politics for the better.
By the way, did you notice that a number of Tory MP's voted against the whip yesterday, despite you assuring me that they wouldn't and that that this wasn't how parliament works. I've asked your mate Farcher about this but he's too busy going 'lalalalalala I'm not ;listening at me'.
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
Theresa defeated.... on 09:49 - Dec 14 by Pinewoodblue
It was also explained that it was a once in a lifetime decision. It was made clear the electorate wouldn't get a second chance.
I voted for Brexit and so far things have gone very much as expected. The only real fear I had was that we didn't have enough experienced politicians/ civil servants to see it through. This still concerns me.
Should we have had a referendum NO. The pre referendum negotiations, if you can them that, highlighted the dangers of remaining. The EU is both expansive and inward looking hence they couldn't agree to change anything. The choice was take it(as it is) or leave. In reality leave was the best option.
It was clear that leave meant leaving the customs union. You leave a club you can't get the benefits of membership, but you can participate as a guest.
" The EU is both expansive and inward looking hence they couldn't agree to change anything"
This is patently untrue. The EU has evolved since conception and continues to evolve. The real issue here is that the Britsh public voted in numpties to the European parliament (MEP's) many of whome spent much of their time trying to undermine the EU instead of enhance it and make it better.
What the EU is ans what it's aims are have never been properly explained in the British media or by British politicians. But anyoen who spent time in Europe in the 60's & 70's can see how the EU has moved forward considerably to the benefit of most.
The desire of the UK RW to have us adjoing America has been an issue since I was at school. It has never gone away.
This is still a tory war and the media are not doing enought to make the public aware of that or the RW desires.
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Theresa defeated.... on 11:31 - Dec 14 with 3502 views
Theresa defeated.... on 11:04 - Dec 14 by BlueBadger
By the way, did you notice that a number of Tory MP's voted against the whip yesterday, despite you assuring me that they wouldn't and that that this wasn't how parliament works. I've asked your mate Farcher about this but he's too busy going 'lalalalalala I'm not ;listening at me'.
I can't see anything in your link up there where I've said that.
TBF though I rarely reply to you as you're a complete bore.
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Theresa defeated.... on 11:40 - Dec 14 with 3486 views
Theresa defeated.... on 11:03 - Dec 14 by BlueBadger
Ah, that'll be why you'v posted that gloaty image again.
Perhaps, in the interest of balance, he will post a picture of the death threats and homophobic abuse his wing of the party directed at Angela Eagle for having the temerity to put herself up against the dear leader?
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