| Theresa defeated.... 19:30 - Dec 13 with 40259 views | ElderGrizzly |
Whoops :)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-majo
Theresa May has lost a Brexit vote in the Commons for the first time.
MPs voted to back the Dominic Grieve amendment by 309 votes to 305 - a majority of four.
The amendment will curb some of the powers the government is giving itself in the EU withdrawal bill. Specifically, it means that although clause 9 of the bill gives ministers powers to implement the Brexit withdrawal agreement by order, the amendment that has been passed means says they can only exercise these powers “subject to the prior enactment of a statute by parliament approving the final terms of withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union.”
Opposition MPs also claim the amendment gives parliament a “meaningful vote” on the withdrawal agreement. This is contested because ministers say parliament is already going to get a meaningful vote. But what it will mean is that ministers will not be able to use the powers in clause 9 to implement the EU withdrawal bill by order until the Commons has passed the bill allowing this. See
Around a dozen Tory MPs rebelled, according to Labour. [Post edited 13 Dec 2017 19:33]
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| Theresa defeated.... on 11:58 - Dec 14 with 2839 views | giant_stow |
I caught a bit of Farage on LBC last night pre-vote results and he was consolling himself with the thought that this makes hard brexit (or clean Brexit as he prefers) more likely. The thinking being that there's now no time to get a trade deal together *and* to get it through parliment = no deal and leave to WTO rules.
Kind of see the logic although I'm glad democracy was upheld last night all the same. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:02 - Dec 14 with 2835 views | J2BLUE |
| Theresa defeated.... on 11:58 - Dec 14 by giant_stow |
I caught a bit of Farage on LBC last night pre-vote results and he was consolling himself with the thought that this makes hard brexit (or clean Brexit as he prefers) more likely. The thinking being that there's now no time to get a trade deal together *and* to get it through parliment = no deal and leave to WTO rules.
Kind of see the logic although I'm glad democracy was upheld last night all the same. |
Think he's kidding himself. Far more likely the transition period will be extended by quite a bit or after another year of propaganda about how terrible Brexit is (and the classic 'you know we haven't left yet right?' about anything positive) we'll have another referendum where remain will win. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:06 - Dec 14 with 2823 views | giant_stow |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:02 - Dec 14 by J2BLUE |
Think he's kidding himself. Far more likely the transition period will be extended by quite a bit or after another year of propaganda about how terrible Brexit is (and the classic 'you know we haven't left yet right?' about anything positive) we'll have another referendum where remain will win. |
I *think* the transitional period is part of 'the deal' though, so if right, that can't happen. Could easily be wrong.
(On a seperate note, it's dangerous listenning to that man - I find him quite convincing! I must be very easily influenced and have only just realised aged 43 - Gawd.) | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:14 - Dec 14 with 2807 views | Darth_Koont |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:02 - Dec 14 by J2BLUE |
Think he's kidding himself. Far more likely the transition period will be extended by quite a bit or after another year of propaganda about how terrible Brexit is (and the classic 'you know we haven't left yet right?' about anything positive) we'll have another referendum where remain will win. |
Propaganda? This is where the stupidity comes in
In what way isn't the whole thing a terrible mess? And "No deal" as a proposed way out??!! The uncertainty and lack of confidence alone are crippling any meaningful government and handicapping businesses and our economy. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:19 - Dec 14 with 2786 views | jaykay |
so one of the reasons we voted out,according to some on here, was wages were being held down by immigration. i wondered who helped to spread this propaganda,would it be the right wing press and most right wing tories, who went into melt down when labour introduced the minimum wage. |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:20 - Dec 14 with 2769 views | No9 |
| Theresa defeated.... on 11:58 - Dec 14 by giant_stow |
I caught a bit of Farage on LBC last night pre-vote results and he was consolling himself with the thought that this makes hard brexit (or clean Brexit as he prefers) more likely. The thinking being that there's now no time to get a trade deal together *and* to get it through parliment = no deal and leave to WTO rules.
Kind of see the logic although I'm glad democracy was upheld last night all the same. |
& if we go to WTO rules the border between an EU country & a WTO country will almost certainly have to be a border with customes checks both ways. |  | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:21 - Dec 14 with 2782 views | giant_stow |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:14 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont |
Propaganda? This is where the stupidity comes in
In what way isn't the whole thing a terrible mess? And "No deal" as a proposed way out??!! The uncertainty and lack of confidence alone are crippling any meaningful government and handicapping businesses and our economy. |
Brexit certainly appears to consume all govt thinking and time right now - you have to wonder what the opportunity cost is. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:21 - Dec 14 with 2779 views | J2BLUE |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:14 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont |
Propaganda? This is where the stupidity comes in
In what way isn't the whole thing a terrible mess? And "No deal" as a proposed way out??!! The uncertainty and lack of confidence alone are crippling any meaningful government and handicapping businesses and our economy. |
We will never agree on this. I've made my argument before that people voted for a 'hard Brexit'. You disagreed. Fair enough. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:23 - Dec 14 with 2759 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:19 - Dec 14 by jaykay |
so one of the reasons we voted out,according to some on here, was wages were being held down by immigration. i wondered who helped to spread this propaganda,would it be the right wing press and most right wing tories, who went into melt down when labour introduced the minimum wage. |
Are you suggesting that the import of immigrant labour didn't drive wages down for low wage workers? |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:25 - Dec 14 with 2753 views | No9 |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:19 - Dec 14 by jaykay |
so one of the reasons we voted out,according to some on here, was wages were being held down by immigration. i wondered who helped to spread this propaganda,would it be the right wing press and most right wing tories, who went into melt down when labour introduced the minimum wage. |
& as I have said before the RW want to prevent EU workers from coming here but not those from India where the price of a trade deal will be to open up the UK to unlimited immmigration tfrom the sub-continent.
As we have seen from our resident tory this is welcome & I suggest it is simply because Indians are much cheaper than EU workers.
So if anything imigration from the =sub-continent and other places will lower wages even further. | | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:26 - Dec 14 with 2761 views | giant_stow |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:23 - Dec 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Are you suggesting that the import of immigrant labour didn't drive wages down for low wage workers? |
Ah you're here - is my point about the transitional period being part of the overall deal correct? I will happily take your word for it! | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:27 - Dec 14 with 2753 views | giant_stow |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:20 - Dec 14 by No9 |
& if we go to WTO rules the border between an EU country & a WTO country will almost certainly have to be a border with customes checks both ways. |
Gawd knows where that would leave the peace process. shudder. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:29 - Dec 14 with 2738 views | No9 |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:23 - Dec 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Are you suggesting that the import of immigrant labour didn't drive wages down for low wage workers? |
It did where the gangmasters ruled - strangely enough in tory constituencies.
But not as far as the many EU companies here are concerned as they pay the same wages + away from home MU to their workers.
Do you think the bosses at RR/Bentley/ Mini are paid peanuts? | | | |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:31 - Dec 14 with 2728 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:26 - Dec 14 by giant_stow |
Ah you're here - is my point about the transitional period being part of the overall deal correct? I will happily take your word for it! |
I'm in the dentists on my iphone so it may use predictive text and call you Ullapool :-)
I don't think the time span of any transition deal has been agreed. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:34 - Dec 14 with 2732 views | giant_stow |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:31 - Dec 14 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm in the dentists on my iphone so it may use predictive text and call you Ullapool :-)
I don't think the time span of any transition deal has been agreed. |
grr - get my oh so sad alias on twtd on right - i demand it! And what cheek being in the dentists when I need info. Hey ho, I might have to actually find out myself. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:35 - Dec 14 with 2730 views | Darth_Koont |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:21 - Dec 14 by J2BLUE |
We will never agree on this. I've made my argument before that people voted for a 'hard Brexit'. You disagreed. Fair enough. |
I literally don't know what your objective argument is over Brexit. Now more than ever.
People will start holding their hand up, politicians and public alike. A disaster of an election, the government seeing defeat at home and abroad, Tory rebels emboldened and even the Leave-dominated media seeming to change its tune or at least soften its tone — it won't be long until it's only Farage and other fact-hating xenophobes left banging on about the Leave "arguments". | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:38 - Dec 14 with 2715 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Theresa defeated.... on 08:51 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. There's a logical fallacy at the heart of the poster and Jonathan Pie's argument that these people should be listened to as they parrot populist politicians and their own fake news source ... you can't beat ignorance by encouraging it. You have to expose it and debunk it.
The problem in this world is that too many people ARE listening to too many ignorant people. Take a look at climate change deniers - it's not a different opinion that deserves listening to as "the other side of the debate", it's an extremist position and should be treated on those terms.
Those that voted Leave and can argue their case, fine. Although I'm still to hear anything that makes much sense beyond wishful thinking and excessive faith in our own politicians to make the right choices during the Brexit charade and in future trade negotiations, respect for worker's rights, and generally their management of the economy. |
By ignorant I take it you mean people not thinking like yourself. If you can read that and not think 'thought police' I am amazed. When I was younger and scientists claimed we were heading into a new ice age I think I can imagine what you would have posted to ignorant 'warmers' !
Are you and Herbivore trolling from an anonymous tower block in Brussels ? |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:43 - Dec 14 with 2699 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:16 - Dec 14 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm not disagreeing. The leaflet highlights that the Prime Minister at the time said that the government would implement the decision of the referendum.
Not legally binding but a betrayal of trust that would bring the entire democratic process in this country down. We may as well have anarchy and revolution. |
Now there's a thought. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:45 - Dec 14 with 2693 views | J2BLUE |
No it isn't...think what we would end up with. We'd probably be executed within a week. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:47 - Dec 14 with 2688 views | Herbivore |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:02 - Dec 14 by J2BLUE |
Think he's kidding himself. Far more likely the transition period will be extended by quite a bit or after another year of propaganda about how terrible Brexit is (and the classic 'you know we haven't left yet right?' about anything positive) we'll have another referendum where remain will win. |
Propaganda? Jesus wept. |  |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:47 - Dec 14 with 2688 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:39 - Dec 14 by J2BLUE |
Perhaps if you were trolling you wouldn't mind answering the question properly? Genuinely interested. |
He's waiting for Mr Koont to do the spade work gor him.....think the two Ronnies ! | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:49 - Dec 14 with 2679 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:44 - Dec 14 by BlueBadger |
'I voted to Take Back Control and now I am upset because parliament has Taken Control of the process'. |
Behold the birth of another @narchist ! | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 12:59 - Dec 14 with 2661 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Theresa defeated.... on 09:01 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont |
That's fair too. It's far too big and complex an issue for 99% of us to really understand. I was happy to remain because there was no evidence to suggest it would be better, not that there was clear evidence that being in the EU itself is better than any other possible solution.
But you don't change things without the facts at your disposal. We knew that Brexit in the short-term would cost us, but how much and what the cost/benefits would be in the long-term was ignored because there was no answer. Any way you look at it, that's a pretty stupid decision. |
In the long term when the EU and/or Euro implodes we will be ahead of the curve.
As stated before my preference is for an entirely new paradigm of 'development' along the lines of steady state economics with the environment /earth care at its core so a lot of what has gone before in this discussion is about chosing the least bad option for destroying our existence. The "growth model" needs killing off. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 13:00 - Dec 14 with 2656 views | Darth_Koont |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:38 - Dec 14 by BanksterDebtSlave |
By ignorant I take it you mean people not thinking like yourself. If you can read that and not think 'thought police' I am amazed. When I was younger and scientists claimed we were heading into a new ice age I think I can imagine what you would have posted to ignorant 'warmers' !
Are you and Herbivore trolling from an anonymous tower block in Brussels ? |
I meant ignorant as in not knowing what they're really talking about given the sheer size and complexity of the issues involved. There are of course those who are even more ignorant because they are far too ready to believe bullsh¡t on top of that.
I'm sure you, like me and everyone else on this board, has a job, interests or knowledge we understand in detail. What do you think the chances are of someone on the outside knowing what is right or wrong in this area with only a very superficial knowledge? Then what about the people who only have a prejudiced, superficial view?
Ignorance is exactly the right word. | |
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| Theresa defeated.... on 13:08 - Dec 14 with 2633 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Theresa defeated.... on 12:45 - Dec 14 by J2BLUE |
No it isn't...think what we would end up with. We'd probably be executed within a week. |
My hands are calloused ! See ya  | |
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