| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory 16:36 - Feb 15 with 23025 views | tractordownsouth |
Apologies I'm a few days late, but here's the charming Mr Rees- Mogg presenting a Daily Express petition to cut foreign aid to poor countries. What a lovely chap.
Appreciate a few of you aren't fans of the Guardian, but the picture's there for all to see.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/11/oxfam-foreign-aid-jacob-re
( Edited for time inaccuracy) [Post edited 15 Feb 2018 16:50]
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 09:16 - Feb 17 with 1698 views | Vic |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:41 - Feb 16 by sparks |
Its an organic living collection of cells with attached instructions at both points. I do think that the "magical" moment has, objectively, limited impact on that analysis and I do think that for many (not necessarily you) that ideas about souls are part of the thinking. |
Looks a lot like a baby human to me! With respect Bully I don’t thunk many would agree with you that that is just a cleection of cells. But if, for the sake of argument we allow that description, it would still be true that that collection of cells is a baby human, would it not? |  |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 09:36 - Feb 17 with 1686 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 09:16 - Feb 17 by Vic |
Looks a lot like a baby human to me! With respect Bully I don’t thunk many would agree with you that that is just a cleection of cells. But if, for the sake of argument we allow that description, it would still be true that that collection of cells is a baby human, would it not? |
All of those points are dealt with above.
A foetus at a few weeks does not look like a human baby. It is a collection of cells with instructions.
At 24 weeks, that is different- as has been addressed repeatedly.
Not sure what point you are seeking to make really. Presumably you are in the "souls" camp and share JRM's abhorrent views? |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 14:55 - Feb 17 with 1627 views | Vic |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 09:36 - Feb 17 by sparks |
All of those points are dealt with above.
A foetus at a few weeks does not look like a human baby. It is a collection of cells with instructions.
At 24 weeks, that is different- as has been addressed repeatedly.
Not sure what point you are seeking to make really. Presumably you are in the "souls" camp and share JRM's abhorrent views? |
A feotus at 12 weeks looks very much like a baby human!
But leaving aside appearances, at what point does science say that the collection of cells with instructions become a baby human? Genuine question.
And no, I don’t share JRS views. | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 15:01 - Feb 17 with 1623 views | gerard1947 |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 16:42 - Feb 15 by pickles110564 |
He is the only decent politician at the moment who stays true to his beliefs, hopefully he will be running the country before too long and get us out of the EU without any tie in strings. |
Both stay true to their beliefs perhaps but I'd rather have a pint with Denis Skinner than JRM! |  | | |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 15:04 - Feb 17 with 1619 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 14:55 - Feb 17 by Vic |
A feotus at 12 weeks looks very much like a baby human!
But leaving aside appearances, at what point does science say that the collection of cells with instructions become a baby human? Genuine question.
And no, I don’t share JRS views. |
The thing that gets me is why someone needs to wait 20+ weeks to abort, seems insane to me.
If a mother feels that it is a massive mistake and she can't cope then surely it could be done after the first positive test.
How anyone can make a decision once they are carrying a perfectly formed human being is totally beyond me. |  |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 15:10 - Feb 17 with 1618 views | gerard1947 |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 15:04 - Feb 17 by Lord_Lucan |
The thing that gets me is why someone needs to wait 20+ weeks to abort, seems insane to me.
If a mother feels that it is a massive mistake and she can't cope then surely it could be done after the first positive test.
How anyone can make a decision once they are carrying a perfectly formed human being is totally beyond me. |
Very hard to disagree with any of that. Unless of course the mother's health suddenly becomes a serious issue. | | | |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 19:03 - Feb 17 with 1568 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 14:55 - Feb 17 by Vic |
A feotus at 12 weeks looks very much like a baby human!
But leaving aside appearances, at what point does science say that the collection of cells with instructions become a baby human? Genuine question.
And no, I don’t share JRS views. |
Not really a question for science, and unlike religion, scientists arent arrogant enough to claim authority on such matters.
The phrase I used was, of course, "a few weeks". Making your comment about 12 look a bit disingenuous. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 19:42 - Feb 17 with 1553 views | Vic |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 19:03 - Feb 17 by sparks |
Not really a question for science, and unlike religion, scientists arent arrogant enough to claim authority on such matters.
The phrase I used was, of course, "a few weeks". Making your comment about 12 look a bit disingenuous. |
Maybe you’ve changed your. I don’t then from your comment on page 4 - “I suggest we must be guided by the best scientific information available on the subject...”.
You said something similar a few posts further on, including medicine in it as well.
But now your saying that that it’s not a question for science!
With regards to when a feotus with potential and instructions becomes a humam baby I assume then, in the absence of a more specific time, that you believe it to be about 12 weeks. Is that correct? If not at what point or stage do you believe that the foetus becomes a human and should therefore be treated as such and not killed? | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 19:49 - Feb 17 with 1545 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 19:42 - Feb 17 by Vic |
Maybe you’ve changed your. I don’t then from your comment on page 4 - “I suggest we must be guided by the best scientific information available on the subject...”.
You said something similar a few posts further on, including medicine in it as well.
But now your saying that that it’s not a question for science!
With regards to when a feotus with potential and instructions becomes a humam baby I assume then, in the absence of a more specific time, that you believe it to be about 12 weeks. Is that correct? If not at what point or stage do you believe that the foetus becomes a human and should therefore be treated as such and not killed? |
This is why I avoid discussions with you.
Nothing has changed. The best evidence and information about development of a child, viability, sensation, sentience etc is to be found via science.
As with so many things, the question about when a collection of cells becomes a human being is clearly not a black and white issue- nor is it an issue on which science can possibly have a definitive view. Its a philosphical point in many ways and as I have repeatedly said, there is a valid discussion to be had on that subject. Preferably an informed one- though must are content to reach views based on emotive reaction or "what they reckon".
You then put words in my mouth in your final para. I havent indicated a specific time at all- I have repeatedly said there is a serious discussion to be had about that. I have not spent the time necessary reviewing the science to throw forward an answer and am always surprised when others feel not only able, but actively confident in doing so.
You believe in souls though- is that correct? | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 20:21 - Feb 17 with 1521 views | Vic |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 19:49 - Feb 17 by sparks |
This is why I avoid discussions with you.
Nothing has changed. The best evidence and information about development of a child, viability, sensation, sentience etc is to be found via science.
As with so many things, the question about when a collection of cells becomes a human being is clearly not a black and white issue- nor is it an issue on which science can possibly have a definitive view. Its a philosphical point in many ways and as I have repeatedly said, there is a valid discussion to be had on that subject. Preferably an informed one- though must are content to reach views based on emotive reaction or "what they reckon".
You then put words in my mouth in your final para. I havent indicated a specific time at all- I have repeatedly said there is a serious discussion to be had about that. I have not spent the time necessary reviewing the science to throw forward an answer and am always surprised when others feel not only able, but actively confident in doing so.
You believe in souls though- is that correct? |
i agree with you about the science bit - but there must be a time or stage of development when the transition happens. I’m just interested in when you as an individual think it is.
I would, with respect, suggest that my belief or not in ‘souls’ is totally irrelevant to the question of what you think about the question posed - unless you want to use it as a smoke screen to hide behind.
Like you say, we rarely agree, so this is probably only going one way! Let’s not take this any further, especially as I have a night in with my wife and I really ought to give her some time rather than be on here! | |
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