| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory 16:36 - Feb 15 with 23020 views | tractordownsouth |
Apologies I'm a few days late, but here's the charming Mr Rees- Mogg presenting a Daily Express petition to cut foreign aid to poor countries. What a lovely chap.
Appreciate a few of you aren't fans of the Guardian, but the picture's there for all to see.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/11/oxfam-foreign-aid-jacob-re
( Edited for time inaccuracy) [Post edited 15 Feb 2018 16:50]
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 10:29 - Feb 16 with 3552 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 09:51 - Feb 16 by sparks |
Doesnt sound like you are interested in any sort of debate. |
I am. But your opening gambit was "Abortion is not "killing babies". Its the constant resort to this silly emotive stuff ". You then agreed that a picture I posted was indeed a baby and we established that the baby in the picure was 2 weeks under the cut off point for an abortion.
So surely you are now at the point where you accept that in many cases, abortion is killing babies? |  |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:04 - Feb 16 with 3502 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 10:29 - Feb 16 by GlasgowBlue |
I am. But your opening gambit was "Abortion is not "killing babies". Its the constant resort to this silly emotive stuff ". You then agreed that a picture I posted was indeed a baby and we established that the baby in the picure was 2 weeks under the cut off point for an abortion.
So surely you are now at the point where you accept that in many cases, abortion is killing babies? |
The immediate recourse is "its killing babies" which simply poisons the well in respect of any sensible discussion.
The fact that you are concentrating on that- rather than on the actual issue raised initially (JRM's abhorrent views) exemplifies that. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:12 - Feb 16 with 3490 views | No9 |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 10:29 - Feb 16 by GlasgowBlue |
I am. But your opening gambit was "Abortion is not "killing babies". Its the constant resort to this silly emotive stuff ". You then agreed that a picture I posted was indeed a baby and we established that the baby in the picure was 2 weeks under the cut off point for an abortion.
So surely you are now at the point where you accept that in many cases, abortion is killing babies? |
Haven't Mr Rees-Moggs commercial activities shown he is not anti abortion where selling abortion pills is legal?
Isn't that double standards ? |  | | |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:12 - Feb 16 with 3488 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:04 - Feb 16 by sparks |
The immediate recourse is "its killing babies" which simply poisons the well in respect of any sensible discussion.
The fact that you are concentrating on that- rather than on the actual issue raised initially (JRM's abhorrent views) exemplifies that. |
I don't find being pro life abhorrent. I disagree with eh position in which he is coming from as I am not religious. But I don't think anyone who holds a pro life view should be described as abhorrent. | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:15 - Feb 16 with 3480 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:12 - Feb 16 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't find being pro life abhorrent. I disagree with eh position in which he is coming from as I am not religious. But I don't think anyone who holds a pro life view should be described as abhorrent. |
I find his view abhorrent. But instead of people addressing his view (anti abortion at any time in all circumstances, even rape) people immediately switch to "killing babies".
Even the term "pro life" is dishonest and loaded.
"Rees-Mogg, who is a father of six, said he was “completely opposed to abortion” and said he believed life began at the point of conception. “With same-sex marriage, that is something that people are doing for themselves. With abortion, that is what people are doing to the unborn child,” he said.
Asked whether he would be against terminations in all circumstances including rape, he replied: “Afraid so.”" [Post edited 16 Feb 2018 12:16]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:18 - Feb 16 with 3477 views | chicoazul |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:12 - Feb 16 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't find being pro life abhorrent. I disagree with eh position in which he is coming from as I am not religious. But I don't think anyone who holds a pro life view should be described as abhorrent. |
You have to remember, we are not allowed to get "emotional" (in other words have a normal human reaction to ending human life) when discussing these things. We must only approach this from a purely rational atheistic viewpoint, therefore ceding ground in the argument to people who appoint themselves the higher authority. It is the fact religious people are religious which is the abhorrent part, not the views they hold as a consequence. Atheists regardless religion as the ultimate human sickness and are militant in their attempt to cure it which is why atheists are the biggest dry lunches in the world.
ETA; here is an example of atheist eugenicists hard at work slowly wiping out people still in the womb http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/iceland-downs-syndro [Post edited 16 Feb 2018 12:20]
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:19 - Feb 16 with 3475 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:18 - Feb 16 by chicoazul |
You have to remember, we are not allowed to get "emotional" (in other words have a normal human reaction to ending human life) when discussing these things. We must only approach this from a purely rational atheistic viewpoint, therefore ceding ground in the argument to people who appoint themselves the higher authority. It is the fact religious people are religious which is the abhorrent part, not the views they hold as a consequence. Atheists regardless religion as the ultimate human sickness and are militant in their attempt to cure it which is why atheists are the biggest dry lunches in the world.
ETA; here is an example of atheist eugenicists hard at work slowly wiping out people still in the womb http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/iceland-downs-syndro [Post edited 16 Feb 2018 12:20]
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QED again. Anything but address the point made... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:23 - Feb 16 with 3460 views | chicoazul |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:19 - Feb 16 by sparks |
QED again. Anything but address the point made... |
Highly ironic. | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:26 - Feb 16 with 3457 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:23 - Feb 16 by chicoazul |
Highly ironic. |
In what way? | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:32 - Feb 16 with 3452 views | BlueLikeJazz |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:19 - Feb 16 by sparks |
QED again. Anything but address the point made... |
Any remote chance, do you think, of him addressing in an 'emotional' way the numbers of women who will die or kill themselves if Rees-Mogg ever got his way? No, thought not. [Post edited 16 Feb 2018 12:33]
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:48 - Feb 16 with 3437 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:15 - Feb 16 by sparks |
I find his view abhorrent. But instead of people addressing his view (anti abortion at any time in all circumstances, even rape) people immediately switch to "killing babies".
Even the term "pro life" is dishonest and loaded.
"Rees-Mogg, who is a father of six, said he was “completely opposed to abortion” and said he believed life began at the point of conception. “With same-sex marriage, that is something that people are doing for themselves. With abortion, that is what people are doing to the unborn child,” he said.
Asked whether he would be against terminations in all circumstances including rape, he replied: “Afraid so.”" [Post edited 16 Feb 2018 12:16]
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And as I have said before in the case of rape, if there was a way to remove a fetus from the womb and let that baby grow elsewhere then I would prefer that rather than snuff out what is potentially a wonderful life.
And on the one hand you say that using the term "killing babies"is silly emotive stuff but then as soon as people put over a pro life view then the emotive issue of rape is brought up.
I believe I read that just 1% of abortions are from victims of rape. Should we perhaps discuss the other 99% of abortions? | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:51 - Feb 16 with 3432 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:48 - Feb 16 by GlasgowBlue |
And as I have said before in the case of rape, if there was a way to remove a fetus from the womb and let that baby grow elsewhere then I would prefer that rather than snuff out what is potentially a wonderful life.
And on the one hand you say that using the term "killing babies"is silly emotive stuff but then as soon as people put over a pro life view then the emotive issue of rape is brought up.
I believe I read that just 1% of abortions are from victims of rape. Should we perhaps discuss the other 99% of abortions? |
The "emotive" issue of rape, is directly brought up as part of JRM's position.
If you are genuinely interested in a discussion, rather than dogma and soundbites, explain whether you accept there should be abortion allowed with a timescale (in which case we only disagree about the timescale- and may not even disagree on that) or whether you accept and take the position of JRM that life begins at conception and should be protected from that moment onwards. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:53 - Feb 16 with 3431 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:12 - Feb 16 by No9 |
Haven't Mr Rees-Moggs commercial activities shown he is not anti abortion where selling abortion pills is legal?
Isn't that double standards ? |
I have no idea. I am not a fan of JRM. I am purely putting over my own personal views on the subject. | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:55 - Feb 16 with 3427 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 09:33 - Feb 16 by GlasgowBlue |
It’s a baby born two weeks before the cut off point for abortion.
It would be murder to put a pillow over that baby’s head but quite legal to kill it in the mother’s womb. I can’t see the difference tbh. [Post edited 16 Feb 2018 9:36]
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Bloody hell. That’s two weeks before the abortion cut off? I’m gobsmacked. |  |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:00 - Feb 16 with 3421 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:51 - Feb 16 by sparks |
The "emotive" issue of rape, is directly brought up as part of JRM's position.
If you are genuinely interested in a discussion, rather than dogma and soundbites, explain whether you accept there should be abortion allowed with a timescale (in which case we only disagree about the timescale- and may not even disagree on that) or whether you accept and take the position of JRM that life begins at conception and should be protected from that moment onwards. |
I haven't said I agree with abortion within any timescale. I used a certain timescale in reply to your post that it isn't killing babies, whereas in many instances that is exactly what it is.
I believe life begins on conception. Not for religious reasons. But because I have brought up two beautiful daughters who were considered for abortion. This experience has given me the view that no one has the right to snuff out a life, full of potential, no matter what stage that life has reached in the womb.
I completely understand the issue of rape and accept that the mental health of the mother is paramount in these cases. But they make up such a small percentage of abortions. I also accept in medical cases where deformity may occur that it would be acceptable to abort.
Those are my views. I don't push them on anyone. I understand that I am in a minority and accept the view of the majority prevails. | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:04 - Feb 16 with 3415 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:55 - Feb 16 by The_Romford_Blue |
Bloody hell. That’s two weeks before the abortion cut off? I’m gobsmacked. |
Makes you think doesn't it?
I think this site demonstrates clearly that even at eleven weeks we are talking about far more than just a collection of cells with potential to be a baby.
https://www.thebump.com/pregnancy-week-by-week/11-weeks-pregnant | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:07 - Feb 16 with 3410 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:00 - Feb 16 by GlasgowBlue |
I haven't said I agree with abortion within any timescale. I used a certain timescale in reply to your post that it isn't killing babies, whereas in many instances that is exactly what it is.
I believe life begins on conception. Not for religious reasons. But because I have brought up two beautiful daughters who were considered for abortion. This experience has given me the view that no one has the right to snuff out a life, full of potential, no matter what stage that life has reached in the womb.
I completely understand the issue of rape and accept that the mental health of the mother is paramount in these cases. But they make up such a small percentage of abortions. I also accept in medical cases where deformity may occur that it would be acceptable to abort.
Those are my views. I don't push them on anyone. I understand that I am in a minority and accept the view of the majority prevails. |
Im interested in the basis for the view.
Essentially, its the "potential" argument. So presumably morning after pill is okay. But something a week later isnt- despite the "foetus" at that stage literally being a collection cells with some instructions. That potential is in every egg, of course. Either way, its really not a life at that stage- but if not terminated, in many situations, it could very well be the start of huge issues and problems for the mother who IS alive and sentient, and who is not prepared or in a position to deal with it. Thats why, in my view, her interests clearly take priority at that stage.
I have a firm suspicion that a large proportion of people who take the position you do, do so at least in part as a result of a nagging belief, somewhere deep down, in souls... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:08 - Feb 16 with 3407 views | The_Romford_Blue |
BlueLagos once said I was very open minded which I took as a compliment.
That photo you posted and seeing it was two weeks before the cutoff has really made me think big time. To the point of having to reassess my beliefs on it.
I certainly think the latest date of a termination must be changed on that evidence. | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:10 - Feb 16 with 3404 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:08 - Feb 16 by The_Romford_Blue |
BlueLagos once said I was very open minded which I took as a compliment.
That photo you posted and seeing it was two weeks before the cutoff has really made me think big time. To the point of having to reassess my beliefs on it.
I certainly think the latest date of a termination must be changed on that evidence. |
A photo in the daily mail probably isnt the best evidence to rely upon.
I suggest we must be guided by the best scientific information available on the subject... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:11 - Feb 16 with 3402 views | chicoazul |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:07 - Feb 16 by sparks |
Im interested in the basis for the view.
Essentially, its the "potential" argument. So presumably morning after pill is okay. But something a week later isnt- despite the "foetus" at that stage literally being a collection cells with some instructions. That potential is in every egg, of course. Either way, its really not a life at that stage- but if not terminated, in many situations, it could very well be the start of huge issues and problems for the mother who IS alive and sentient, and who is not prepared or in a position to deal with it. Thats why, in my view, her interests clearly take priority at that stage.
I have a firm suspicion that a large proportion of people who take the position you do, do so at least in part as a result of a nagging belief, somewhere deep down, in souls... |
There it is. The atheist fundamentalist reveals himself.
////strokes chin "Hmmmm I think it's because of your silly religious belief despite the fact you have said on here many times you dont hold any!" | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:12 - Feb 16 with 3401 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:07 - Feb 16 by sparks |
Im interested in the basis for the view.
Essentially, its the "potential" argument. So presumably morning after pill is okay. But something a week later isnt- despite the "foetus" at that stage literally being a collection cells with some instructions. That potential is in every egg, of course. Either way, its really not a life at that stage- but if not terminated, in many situations, it could very well be the start of huge issues and problems for the mother who IS alive and sentient, and who is not prepared or in a position to deal with it. Thats why, in my view, her interests clearly take priority at that stage.
I have a firm suspicion that a large proportion of people who take the position you do, do so at least in part as a result of a nagging belief, somewhere deep down, in souls... |
No believe me I don't believe in souls.
Morning after pill? I have already said I believe life begins on conception. The problem is that conception can happen any time between 45 minutes and one week after sex.
The potential is in every egg but it takes two to make a baby.
As I say, it's a personal view. It just amazes me that those who are pro life are made out to the people in the wrong. | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:14 - Feb 16 with 3399 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:10 - Feb 16 by sparks |
A photo in the daily mail probably isnt the best evidence to rely upon.
I suggest we must be guided by the best scientific information available on the subject... |
I googled it after seeing that photo and a baby born on the day before the cutoff was born premature and sadly died.
But it was a fully adapted if not small baby. Arms and legs and eyes and all that.
I had no idea they were so adapted when could be terminated.
The thing is, because of rapes, I’ve always thought abortion is the right thing. Or even for women who don’t feel in the right place to be a mother. But that photo makes me think it’s the wrong timescales for abortion allowed. I’d take off a considerable amount to the latest abortion date from what it is now. | |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:16 - Feb 16 with 3393 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:11 - Feb 16 by chicoazul |
There it is. The atheist fundamentalist reveals himself.
////strokes chin "Hmmmm I think it's because of your silly religious belief despite the fact you have said on here many times you dont hold any!" |
"fundamentalist" is an extraordinary word to use int hat context. Do elaborate.
Do you agree or disagree that people who are of the view that life should be protected from conception often have a belief (whether overt or lingering) in souls? | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:16 - Feb 16 with 3391 views | No9 |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 12:53 - Feb 16 by GlasgowBlue |
I have no idea. I am not a fan of JRM. I am purely putting over my own personal views on the subject. |
You don't need to be a fan of Mr Rees-Mogg but you normally pay considerable attention to selected people in the political arena.
I would politely suggest you include Messrs Rees-Mogg & Redwood in your reviews | | | |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:18 - Feb 16 with 3386 views | sparks |
| Jacob Rees- Mogg covering himself in even more glory on 13:14 - Feb 16 by The_Romford_Blue |
I googled it after seeing that photo and a baby born on the day before the cutoff was born premature and sadly died.
But it was a fully adapted if not small baby. Arms and legs and eyes and all that.
I had no idea they were so adapted when could be terminated.
The thing is, because of rapes, I’ve always thought abortion is the right thing. Or even for women who don’t feel in the right place to be a mother. But that photo makes me think it’s the wrong timescales for abortion allowed. I’d take off a considerable amount to the latest abortion date from what it is now. |
I think youd need to consider the medical and scientific evidence before reaching that view.
There is certainly an interesting argument / discussion to be had about whether the cut off should be based on "viability" of the foetus, or on when it might sensibly be considered to be something approaching sentience etc. They take all this stuff into account - including evidence about when pain can be felt, brain activity etc. I suspect abortions at 22/ 24 weeks are pretty unusual as well- though Ive not checked the stats. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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