| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? 16:01 - Apr 24 with 5950 views | FrankfurtBlue |
It has often been stated that Evans funds the club to the tune of £5m-6m each season, but having looked at the accounts, it seems that he has increased his net loans to the club by £230k, £2.1m and £2.9m respectively in the last 3 financial years.
Anybody verify my understanding or am I missing something? |  | | |  |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 16:12 - Apr 24 with 4937 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
Havent looked at the account, but I assume the £6m could be made partly of cash injections and partly of loans?
Also depends whether we sell a player for £8m. |  |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 16:37 - Apr 24 with 4875 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 16:12 - Apr 24 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Havent looked at the account, but I assume the £6m could be made partly of cash injections and partly of loans?
Also depends whether we sell a player for £8m. |
Don't believe Evans does capital injections....it's all loans.
Not sure I follow what you mean "Also depends whether we sell a player for £8m." | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 16:59 - Apr 24 with 4840 views | Superfrans |
These are our loss figures for the past few years. You can assume any loss is investment by Evans, given that he covers these losses.
16/17 - £4.3m loss.
15/16 - £6.6m loss.
14/15 - £5.3m profit.
13/14 - £7.2m loss.
12/13 - £9.8m loss.
11/12 - £16.0m loss.
10/11 - £3.2m loss.
9/10 - £14.2m loss.
8/9 - £12.7m loss.
7/8 - £5.8m loss. |  |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:03 - Apr 24 with 4829 views | The_Romford_Blue |
Every transfer fee we receive means he has to put less in. Rather than invest it on the team. |  |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:14 - Apr 24 with 4799 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 16:59 - Apr 24 by Superfrans |
These are our loss figures for the past few years. You can assume any loss is investment by Evans, given that he covers these losses.
16/17 - £4.3m loss.
15/16 - £6.6m loss.
14/15 - £5.3m profit.
13/14 - £7.2m loss.
12/13 - £9.8m loss.
11/12 - £16.0m loss.
10/11 - £3.2m loss.
9/10 - £14.2m loss.
8/9 - £12.7m loss.
7/8 - £5.8m loss. |
Losses do not directly equate to the amount of cash that Evans puts in. | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:16 - Apr 24 with 4789 views | WD19 |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 16:37 - Apr 24 by FrankfurtBlue |
Don't believe Evans does capital injections....it's all loans.
Not sure I follow what you mean "Also depends whether we sell a player for £8m." |
Presumably 'sponsorship' (for example) appears on a different line too. Its a cash injection of sorts over/above covering any debt via (likely unrecoverable) loans. |  | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:19 - Apr 24 with 4776 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:03 - Apr 24 by The_Romford_Blue |
Every transfer fee we receive means he has to put less in. Rather than invest it on the team. |
You would hope that he starts out with a budget and any player sales would result in the budget being increased accordingly, but I am not sure that that is the way Evans works, as you suggest. | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:23 - Apr 24 with 4764 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:16 - Apr 24 by WD19 |
Presumably 'sponsorship' (for example) appears on a different line too. Its a cash injection of sorts over/above covering any debt via (likely unrecoverable) loans. |
That is the only reasonable explanation that I can think of too, but he is, or should be, getting a commercial benefit from that deal. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:33 - Apr 24 with 4742 views | longtimefan |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:14 - Apr 24 by FrankfurtBlue |
Losses do not directly equate to the amount of cash that Evans puts in. |
May not equate to money put in as such but it does equate to the ever increasing debt of the club and that is owned exclusively by ME. It’s equivalent to a cash injection though as without his underswriting that debt we wouldn’t be able to spend the amount we do. |  | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 20:54 - Apr 24 with 4633 views | No9 |
You should be able to see the accounts filing records on Comapnies House website | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 22:53 - Apr 24 with 4520 views | Superfrans |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:14 - Apr 24 by FrankfurtBlue |
Losses do not directly equate to the amount of cash that Evans puts in. |
Here we go....
If your salary does not cover your rent and living expenses. Let’s say it’s £500 short every month. So your mum pays the £500 so you don’t go into overdraft.
Basically, Marcus Evans is your mum.
I don’t much care whether you call it a loan, or an investment, or a gift. The fact is, your mum is subsidising your life to the tune of £500 a month.
Again, that’s what Marcus Evans is doing. | |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 06:58 - Apr 25 with 4428 views | dylanisabaddog |
The losses are predominantly the interest on loans from Evans. The club pays the interest each year but Evans then passes the money back to the club as another loan. | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 07:11 - Apr 25 with 4405 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 22:53 - Apr 24 by Superfrans |
Here we go....
If your salary does not cover your rent and living expenses. Let’s say it’s £500 short every month. So your mum pays the £500 so you don’t go into overdraft.
Basically, Marcus Evans is your mum.
I don’t much care whether you call it a loan, or an investment, or a gift. The fact is, your mum is subsidising your life to the tune of £500 a month.
Again, that’s what Marcus Evans is doing. |
I am not sure what you are trying to establish with your rudimentary example of home economics. It remains that net losses of a company and the amount of cash injected into it do not have to be the same amount. Movements of stock, debtors, creditors, as well as depreciation and amortisation etc. all play a role.
My question was quite clear: I wanted to ask if anyone knew why the £5-6m line we are regularly spun does not seem to tally with the figures in the accounts in recent years. There is one possible explanation already suggested, i.e. that sponsorship by Evans is included. I will throw in another: interest payments that are foregone may be included.
Anyone have a better/different explanation?
Oh, and before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not suggesting that Evans is not putting enough in etc. It is his company/club, he can choose to do as he pleases, I just want to establish, what exactly he does do each financial year. | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 07:40 - Apr 25 with 4357 views | tractorboy7777 |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 17:33 - Apr 24 by longtimefan |
May not equate to money put in as such but it does equate to the ever increasing debt of the club and that is owned exclusively by ME. It’s equivalent to a cash injection though as without his underswriting that debt we wouldn’t be able to spend the amount we do. |
I haven’t looked deeply into the accounts but I understand Town used to own the playford ground but Evans “bought” it? He could have bought it for nothing and in essence there would be a book loss. When I say book loss, this is where the asset value in the accounts is sold for a value lower than it.
Therefore, we can’t purely look at the losses each year.
You can revalue assets which can skew figures also. Not sure if this can be done on players but if you consider that we bring in players on “freebies”, these would actually have value when they sign a contract (albeit some more than others). You could revalue the “asset” which in turn strengthens the balance sheet. Just another example of how the accounts can be legally adjusted by book transactions | |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:13 - Apr 25 with 4303 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 07:40 - Apr 25 by tractorboy7777 |
I haven’t looked deeply into the accounts but I understand Town used to own the playford ground but Evans “bought” it? He could have bought it for nothing and in essence there would be a book loss. When I say book loss, this is where the asset value in the accounts is sold for a value lower than it.
Therefore, we can’t purely look at the losses each year.
You can revalue assets which can skew figures also. Not sure if this can be done on players but if you consider that we bring in players on “freebies”, these would actually have value when they sign a contract (albeit some more than others). You could revalue the “asset” which in turn strengthens the balance sheet. Just another example of how the accounts can be legally adjusted by book transactions |
The land at Playford Rd was sold in Nov 2011 to Marcus Evans (Guernsey) Ltd for £1.32m and leased back to the club for £40k p.a. | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:23 - Apr 25 with 4281 views | itfcjoe |
Basically he has to put in approx £500k a month to cover the running costs and day to day expenditure of the club - i.e. wages.
So he puts in effectively £6m a year - however when there is a player sale that money has tended to go back into MEG as presumably they use the case better than just sitting in account here so that can and has limited the losses in previous years where there has been a sale.
But ultimately if there was no sales, or no sellable assets, he'd still be needing to put in the £500k a month |  |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:31 - Apr 25 with 4264 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:23 - Apr 25 by itfcjoe |
Basically he has to put in approx £500k a month to cover the running costs and day to day expenditure of the club - i.e. wages.
So he puts in effectively £6m a year - however when there is a player sale that money has tended to go back into MEG as presumably they use the case better than just sitting in account here so that can and has limited the losses in previous years where there has been a sale.
But ultimately if there was no sales, or no sellable assets, he'd still be needing to put in the £500k a month |
How did you establish that? | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:44 - Apr 25 with 4243 views | tractorboy7777 |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:13 - Apr 25 by FrankfurtBlue |
The land at Playford Rd was sold in Nov 2011 to Marcus Evans (Guernsey) Ltd for £1.32m and leased back to the club for £40k p.a. |
Ahh fair enough! Was just an example though of how using a loss figure can be misinterpreted | |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:46 - Apr 25 with 4234 views | itfcjoe |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:31 - Apr 25 by FrankfurtBlue |
How did you establish that? |
By looking at the profit and loss before transfer trading over the last few sets of accounts | |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:50 - Apr 25 with 4229 views | Superfrans |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 07:11 - Apr 25 by FrankfurtBlue |
I am not sure what you are trying to establish with your rudimentary example of home economics. It remains that net losses of a company and the amount of cash injected into it do not have to be the same amount. Movements of stock, debtors, creditors, as well as depreciation and amortisation etc. all play a role.
My question was quite clear: I wanted to ask if anyone knew why the £5-6m line we are regularly spun does not seem to tally with the figures in the accounts in recent years. There is one possible explanation already suggested, i.e. that sponsorship by Evans is included. I will throw in another: interest payments that are foregone may be included.
Anyone have a better/different explanation?
Oh, and before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not suggesting that Evans is not putting enough in etc. It is his company/club, he can choose to do as he pleases, I just want to establish, what exactly he does do each financial year. |
To be clear - the numbers I outlined ARE profit/loss figures taken from the annual audited accounts. I keep a little list of them because this question comes up fairly regularly.
If you talking about cash investments, then these numbers I outlined for you (as I say, which are taken from our annual audited accounts over the past 10 years) “may” only be part of the picture, in theory.
My understanding is though that these would include any cash investments, for instance the cash to install the 3D pitch at Playford Road. I don’t know where else this would be accounted for - we don’t have reserves to draw on and there would be no reason at all for Evans to inject this money without it registering in the accounts, even if he were legally able to.
If your question is what he is investing annually into the club, the simple thing to do is take the numbers I’ve provided, and average them out over the period of your choice. For instance, if you take the past two years, it’s an average of £5.5m per year, over the past five years it’s £4.5m per year. If you go back further than this, the annual loss/investment is higher. So, in fact, the oft-quoted £5-6m do tally with accounts published every year. The reason this number varies is presumably because different people will take different periods to support their own personal point of view.
Any interest payments to Evans would be included within the accounts, but as you rightly say, these would offset some of the losses. I’m sure Phil has said though that we don’t pay interest on these debts, but even if we did it wouldn’t change the picture significantly year by year imho.
Sponsorship - if you mean the money Evans has paid us for his sponsorship, this would be additional investment. But again, would be a few hundred grand a season (if that) I would think, so not substantive in context of your question.
Does that answer your question?
Btw, the reason I reacted the way I did is because this is raised fairly regularly on here. “Losses don’t equate to investment”. Yes they do. They *could* be slightly higher (through other areas of investment which are hidden in the account, such as sponsorship or capital investment) or even lower (through interest payments on debt, for instance), but profit/loss IS equivalent to investment by Evans. there may be some ups and downs outside of this, but anyone thinking there substantial enough to change the overall picture (that Evans has invested 10s of millions of pounds per year while our owner and continues to do so) is being misled. [Post edited 25 Apr 2018 8:55]
| |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 09:06 - Apr 25 with 4184 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:46 - Apr 25 by itfcjoe |
By looking at the profit and loss before transfer trading over the last few sets of accounts |
The P&L does not state the level of cash put into the club each year though. When was the last time he actually put in the £5-6m p.a. that is regularly trotted out by Milne and others? | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 09:07 - Apr 25 with 4180 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 08:50 - Apr 25 by Superfrans |
To be clear - the numbers I outlined ARE profit/loss figures taken from the annual audited accounts. I keep a little list of them because this question comes up fairly regularly.
If you talking about cash investments, then these numbers I outlined for you (as I say, which are taken from our annual audited accounts over the past 10 years) “may” only be part of the picture, in theory.
My understanding is though that these would include any cash investments, for instance the cash to install the 3D pitch at Playford Road. I don’t know where else this would be accounted for - we don’t have reserves to draw on and there would be no reason at all for Evans to inject this money without it registering in the accounts, even if he were legally able to.
If your question is what he is investing annually into the club, the simple thing to do is take the numbers I’ve provided, and average them out over the period of your choice. For instance, if you take the past two years, it’s an average of £5.5m per year, over the past five years it’s £4.5m per year. If you go back further than this, the annual loss/investment is higher. So, in fact, the oft-quoted £5-6m do tally with accounts published every year. The reason this number varies is presumably because different people will take different periods to support their own personal point of view.
Any interest payments to Evans would be included within the accounts, but as you rightly say, these would offset some of the losses. I’m sure Phil has said though that we don’t pay interest on these debts, but even if we did it wouldn’t change the picture significantly year by year imho.
Sponsorship - if you mean the money Evans has paid us for his sponsorship, this would be additional investment. But again, would be a few hundred grand a season (if that) I would think, so not substantive in context of your question.
Does that answer your question?
Btw, the reason I reacted the way I did is because this is raised fairly regularly on here. “Losses don’t equate to investment”. Yes they do. They *could* be slightly higher (through other areas of investment which are hidden in the account, such as sponsorship or capital investment) or even lower (through interest payments on debt, for instance), but profit/loss IS equivalent to investment by Evans. there may be some ups and downs outside of this, but anyone thinking there substantial enough to change the overall picture (that Evans has invested 10s of millions of pounds per year while our owner and continues to do so) is being misled. [Post edited 25 Apr 2018 8:55]
|
You're not an accountant are you! | | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 09:12 - Apr 25 with 4171 views | itfcjoe |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 09:06 - Apr 25 by FrankfurtBlue |
The P&L does not state the level of cash put into the club each year though. When was the last time he actually put in the £5-6m p.a. that is regularly trotted out by Milne and others? |
The running costs of the club are £5-6m higher than the revenues - before any transfers are taking into account. Where does that money come from if not Evans? | |
| |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 09:29 - Apr 25 with 4133 views | dirtyboy |
The reconciliation of net cash flow to movement in net debt will give you a year on year idea of what's required by Evans in some form or another to keep the club running.
The debt movement from 16 to 17 was £2.7m and £700k from 15 to 16, but the early years were substantially higher.
There are some subtle areas where that figure can appear different (timing differences etc) but the clearest indication of the cash injection on the last accounts is where the Marcus Evans Holdings (IOM) Ltd are now showing as a creditor to the tune of £2.3m (2016 nil) and the MEG went from 3.6m to 4.3m as a creditor.
Worth noting that MEG has not charged interest on the £43.4m debt since 2014.
Fact is, the club lost £4.3m in 2017 and that cannot come from thin air and the ME group of companies is heavily owed by the club in various financial set ups. |  | | |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 09:50 - Apr 25 with 4103 views | chicoazul |
| Anybody know exactly how much Evans lends ITFC each year? on 09:12 - Apr 25 by itfcjoe |
The running costs of the club are £5-6m higher than the revenues - before any transfers are taking into account. Where does that money come from if not Evans? |
Incoming transfer fees. Wickham, Mings, Cresswell etc |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
