| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? 22:37 - Apr 28 with 3405 views | sparks |
We've been having kitchen floor tiled and boarded. Heating wasn't really warming up tonight so I checked and pumped up the pressure which was low... all sorts of funny noises followed by water dripping through the garage ceiling beneath the kitchen. Tiler has clearly damaged the heating. Could it be repaired? If so, from underneath or are we looking at ripping up the kitchen tiles and floor...
Currently deciding whether to give the bloke a chance to speak with his insurers , go to ours, or just engage a heating engineer and claim the cost afterwards... |  |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 00:28 - Apr 29 with 3329 views | Coastalblue |
I design and sell it for a living, but not an installer or engineer. Not normally reccomended to join the pipework under the floor, but suspect you will have little choice.
If you can get access from below then it could be joined in that way, otherwise excevating from the top. How is it fitted? Assuming it's not into screed but either an overlay system or between joists?
Feel free to drop me a message if you wish, not sure how much help I'll be but might be able to suggest someone to talk to. |  |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 07:59 - Apr 29 with 3203 views | sparks |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 00:28 - Apr 29 by Coastalblue |
I design and sell it for a living, but not an installer or engineer. Not normally reccomended to join the pipework under the floor, but suspect you will have little choice.
If you can get access from below then it could be joined in that way, otherwise excevating from the top. How is it fitted? Assuming it's not into screed but either an overlay system or between joists?
Feel free to drop me a message if you wish, not sure how much help I'll be but might be able to suggest someone to talk to. |
Seems to be between joists. The floors are chipboard marked thermo board so I imagine the pipes sit underneath.
Seems like we may have to pull down the plasterboard ceiling in places in the Garage to get at it. Infuriating! Not east Anglia though so I doubt you could suggest any contacts. Thanks for the offer though. | |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 08:36 - Apr 29 with 3154 views | Colin_Viljoen |
I'd pull down the ceiling in the garage, a lot easier to make good then going in from above. |  | | |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 12:48 - Apr 29 with 3043 views | Leaky |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 08:36 - Apr 29 by Colin_Viljoen |
I'd pull down the ceiling in the garage, a lot easier to make good then going in from above. |
If the underfloor pipe work is fitted below chip board flooring, it's very unlikely its the tiller's fault. Usually a nailed or screwed pipe. Would suggest taking the ceiling down repair from underneath. If its any consolation it will be easier to repair than if the pipework is buried in the floor screed. |  | | |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 15:38 - Apr 29 with 2995 views | sparks |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 12:48 - Apr 29 by Leaky |
If the underfloor pipe work is fitted below chip board flooring, it's very unlikely its the tiller's fault. Usually a nailed or screwed pipe. Would suggest taking the ceiling down repair from underneath. If its any consolation it will be easier to repair than if the pipework is buried in the floor screed. |
Must be the tiler. He added backing boards on top of the chip board floor before tiling- with cement, leveller and *screws*. Likely explanation seems to be that he has caught a pipe with one of the screws.
Have now cut a couple of holes in the garage ceiling. Havent found the source of the water. Its going to be fun and games finding the right spot without ripping the whole ceiling down.
The heaating pipes are embedded and taped into grooves on the underside of the chipboard floorboard. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 16:01 - Apr 29 with 2969 views | Lord_Lucan |
My daughter had it in her last house.
It never worked. |  |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:19 - Apr 29 with 2880 views | Coastalblue |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 15:38 - Apr 29 by sparks |
Must be the tiler. He added backing boards on top of the chip board floor before tiling- with cement, leveller and *screws*. Likely explanation seems to be that he has caught a pipe with one of the screws.
Have now cut a couple of holes in the garage ceiling. Havent found the source of the water. Its going to be fun and games finding the right spot without ripping the whole ceiling down.
The heaating pipes are embedded and taped into grooves on the underside of the chipboard floorboard. |
It might be fun and games getting the right size fitting to repair the pipework too! You might want to look at the manifold to see if there are any brand names on it or the actuators if fitted, the pipe used is neither a common size or type.
It does sound likely that it has been hit with a screw though. | |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:24 - Apr 29 with 2876 views | sparks |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:19 - Apr 29 by Coastalblue |
It might be fun and games getting the right size fitting to repair the pipework too! You might want to look at the manifold to see if there are any brand names on it or the actuators if fitted, the pipe used is neither a common size or type.
It does sound likely that it has been hit with a screw though. |
No obvious markings. Ill speak to a heating engineer tomorrow and see if they can come and have a look.
2 rooms have been dead for a while anyway, so might as well get that done too. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:30 - Apr 29 with 2867 views | Coastalblue |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:24 - Apr 29 by sparks |
No obvious markings. Ill speak to a heating engineer tomorrow and see if they can come and have a look.
2 rooms have been dead for a while anyway, so might as well get that done too. |
It will almost certainly be either a polybutylene pipe, most likely, which will in all likelyhood be 15mm, or alternatively the better quality pex pipe which is aluminium cored. Pex pipe would most likely be 16mm.
As said before, if you're struggling for info or finding stuff drop me a message, I'm happy to help where I can.
If you have rooms not working that would suggest either the wiring centre is wired incorrectly, or the electronic actuators on top of the circuits have failed, the latter would seem most likely. You shouldn't expect to pay much more than £15-20 each for replacements if required. | |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:41 - Apr 29 with 2841 views | sparks |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:30 - Apr 29 by Coastalblue |
It will almost certainly be either a polybutylene pipe, most likely, which will in all likelyhood be 15mm, or alternatively the better quality pex pipe which is aluminium cored. Pex pipe would most likely be 16mm.
As said before, if you're struggling for info or finding stuff drop me a message, I'm happy to help where I can.
If you have rooms not working that would suggest either the wiring centre is wired incorrectly, or the electronic actuators on top of the circuits have failed, the latter would seem most likely. You shouldn't expect to pay much more than £15-20 each for replacements if required. |
Thanks | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:41 - Apr 29 with 2841 views | stainless |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:30 - Apr 29 by Coastalblue |
It will almost certainly be either a polybutylene pipe, most likely, which will in all likelyhood be 15mm, or alternatively the better quality pex pipe which is aluminium cored. Pex pipe would most likely be 16mm.
As said before, if you're struggling for info or finding stuff drop me a message, I'm happy to help where I can.
If you have rooms not working that would suggest either the wiring centre is wired incorrectly, or the electronic actuators on top of the circuits have failed, the latter would seem most likely. You shouldn't expect to pay much more than £15-20 each for replacements if required. |
Chances are it will be 15 or 16mm, couplings should be easy to get from any plumbers merchant. It could be 14mm (Myson) which might take a day or 2 to get in.
Although if you had a tiler putting screws in the floor who didn't know the underfloor heating was there or doesn't understand underfloor heating i fear it could resemble a colander. |  | | |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 17:58 - May 2 with 2664 views | sparks |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 18:41 - Apr 29 by stainless |
Chances are it will be 15 or 16mm, couplings should be easy to get from any plumbers merchant. It could be 14mm (Myson) which might take a day or 2 to get in.
Although if you had a tiler putting screws in the floor who didn't know the underfloor heating was there or doesn't understand underfloor heating i fear it could resemble a colander. |
Update time. Had heating engineer out. Looks like there are leakes in at least two places. Engineer he had only seen the type of system we have once in 20 years. The pipe is tightly embedded into the grooves in the chipboard, making it virtually impossible to pull out and repair from underneath, without taking downt he entire ceiling and pulling it out length by length. He doesnt think repair is practical. They capped off the room's heating as an interim measure so at least we get the rest of the system for now.
Options appear to be:
1. Rip the ceiling down and somehow repair or reinstallfrom below. Expensive and loads of hassle.
2. Install a radiator in the kitchen instead. Probably 600 quid or so? Not as nice to walk on (on the new cold granite tiles...) and less even heat, but...
3. Do without.
4. Install a new system underneath the old one- whether wet or dry.
5. Find some way of clawing out bits of pipe and repairing it. I wonder whether, if I cut the pipe in situ, I could get some pliers in one end and rip bits away from the groove, and if so how practical it would then be to re-join / mend pipe by splicing it in, or whether it would all need replacing anyway...
Also- need to consider the tiler's position. He is adamant he couldnt have known and the engineers comments about the rarity of the arrangement seem to support that - albeit the big red swirly lines printed on the chipboard ought to have been a warning. We understand he is insured, but hes a family man making probably a fairly modest living and is clearly gutted about it all. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 20:04 - May 2 with 2592 views | Coastalblue |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 17:58 - May 2 by sparks |
Update time. Had heating engineer out. Looks like there are leakes in at least two places. Engineer he had only seen the type of system we have once in 20 years. The pipe is tightly embedded into the grooves in the chipboard, making it virtually impossible to pull out and repair from underneath, without taking downt he entire ceiling and pulling it out length by length. He doesnt think repair is practical. They capped off the room's heating as an interim measure so at least we get the rest of the system for now.
Options appear to be:
1. Rip the ceiling down and somehow repair or reinstallfrom below. Expensive and loads of hassle.
2. Install a radiator in the kitchen instead. Probably 600 quid or so? Not as nice to walk on (on the new cold granite tiles...) and less even heat, but...
3. Do without.
4. Install a new system underneath the old one- whether wet or dry.
5. Find some way of clawing out bits of pipe and repairing it. I wonder whether, if I cut the pipe in situ, I could get some pliers in one end and rip bits away from the groove, and if so how practical it would then be to re-join / mend pipe by splicing it in, or whether it would all need replacing anyway...
Also- need to consider the tiler's position. He is adamant he couldnt have known and the engineers comments about the rarity of the arrangement seem to support that - albeit the big red swirly lines printed on the chipboard ought to have been a warning. We understand he is insured, but hes a family man making probably a fairly modest living and is clearly gutted about it all. |
I'm not sure I would ever trust repairs in inaccesible places to be honest, it may be fine but if something is going to fail it will be a joint which is why underfloor heating is all one circuit. If there's more than one repair then the odds get a bit shorter.
However, I realise you're in a bind and might wantto go with this option, most likely it will be fine, but still....
Radiator would be the easiest option I guess, but would need fresh plumbing back to the boiler as they run at a much higher temperature than ufh.
How big is the room?
Electric could be an option, obviously not as cheap to run but works very well under tiles, if the existing floor is plyood and insulated underneath (assuming it is as there's heating there) then you could put a 150W per M2 heating mat directly on the plywood and tile over it. As long as the tiler doesn't damage it when installing or tiling a decent brand will last decades.
Last and probably most expensive option would be an overlay wet system, grooved panels to lay over the existing floor that take the pipework. I wouldn't go less than an 18mm panel with 12mm pipework if you look at this option, and as I say, it's not cheap.
If you want to talk through any of it I'll drop you my direct dial number at work, it's the only thing we do and I deal with half a dozen brands and the assorted associated systems. | |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 20:28 - May 2 with 2572 views | sparks |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 20:04 - May 2 by Coastalblue |
I'm not sure I would ever trust repairs in inaccesible places to be honest, it may be fine but if something is going to fail it will be a joint which is why underfloor heating is all one circuit. If there's more than one repair then the odds get a bit shorter.
However, I realise you're in a bind and might wantto go with this option, most likely it will be fine, but still....
Radiator would be the easiest option I guess, but would need fresh plumbing back to the boiler as they run at a much higher temperature than ufh.
How big is the room?
Electric could be an option, obviously not as cheap to run but works very well under tiles, if the existing floor is plyood and insulated underneath (assuming it is as there's heating there) then you could put a 150W per M2 heating mat directly on the plywood and tile over it. As long as the tiler doesn't damage it when installing or tiling a decent brand will last decades.
Last and probably most expensive option would be an overlay wet system, grooved panels to lay over the existing floor that take the pipework. I wouldn't go less than an 18mm panel with 12mm pipework if you look at this option, and as I say, it's not cheap.
If you want to talk through any of it I'll drop you my direct dial number at work, it's the only thing we do and I deal with half a dozen brands and the assorted associated systems. |
Thing is- most of the tiles and boards are already down and ripping up the kitchen floor would require removal of the new island as well!!
Its looking like a radiator. Shouldnt be too bad as the kitchen is above the boiler in the garage. Thanks for the offer. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 21:03 - May 2 with 2546 views | Coastalblue |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 20:28 - May 2 by sparks |
Thing is- most of the tiles and boards are already down and ripping up the kitchen floor would require removal of the new island as well!!
Its looking like a radiator. Shouldnt be too bad as the kitchen is above the boiler in the garage. Thanks for the offer. |
Sounds like your options are somewhat limited.
I hope it all gets sorted satisfactorily. | |
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| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 21:21 - May 2 with 2529 views | sparks |
| anyone knowledgeable about underfloor heating? on 21:03 - May 2 by Coastalblue |
Sounds like your options are somewhat limited.
I hope it all gets sorted satisfactorily. |
Yep- not ideal.
Dont want to shaft the tiler either- but at the same time.... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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