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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros 11:56 - May 30 with 16785 viewsJ2BLUE

Will the remain campaign ever learn?

Edit: To be clear, I have nothing against a second referendum. I just think it's stupid having Soros announce it and so strongly linked to it. Everyone saw the reaction when Obama 'interfered'. Having someone like Soros, who is widely considered as being out for himself, so connected to the campaign won't help IMO.
[Post edited 30 May 2018 12:54]

Truly impaired.
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:00 - May 30 with 6364 viewsDarth_Koont

I think learning is pretty well understood by most Remainers.

Will the Brexiteers learn anything about anything? If we could somehow let the 52% leave then that would be great. For the most part, they're a drain on society and holding the country back.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:05 - May 30 with 6298 viewsNo9

Will the young leavers ever learn they are committing thmselves to prolonged poverty?
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:12 - May 30 with 6282 viewsJ2BLUE

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:00 - May 30 by Darth_Koont

I think learning is pretty well understood by most Remainers.

Will the Brexiteers learn anything about anything? If we could somehow let the 52% leave then that would be great. For the most part, they're a drain on society and holding the country back.


I'm not saying there shouldn't be a second referendum. Having Soros announce it and be linked so strongly to it really isn't going to help convince most people it's best for the country.

Truly impaired.
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:12 - May 30 with 6288 viewshomer_123

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:05 - May 30 by No9

Will the young leavers ever learn they are committing thmselves to prolonged poverty?


Are they?

You're making quite a few assumptions there.

The EU is not in a great place for many, many reasons. Greece is still a thorn that hasn't been sorted. Italy, constitutionally and financially could cause all sorts of problems, still issues with one of the top 4 German banks that could cause a significant issue.

We were told, by experts, that the mere vote for Brexit would mean financial meltdown....that didn't happen and in many respects the economy is coping extremely well - would the economy be better had we voted to remain, possibly unlikely - although both are still somewhat short term but either way, the doom and distater of a Brexit hasn't materialised.

EDIT: for balance, I think the EU has brought many, many positives!

FURTHER EDIT: that poverty you refer to is actually less linked with Brexit than other factors anyway - the step back on social mobility and the gap between the wealthy and the poor is not linked with Brexit.
[Post edited 30 May 2018 12:19]

Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:16 - May 30 with 6242 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:00 - May 30 by Darth_Koont

I think learning is pretty well understood by most Remainers.

Will the Brexiteers learn anything about anything? If we could somehow let the 52% leave then that would be great. For the most part, they're a drain on society and holding the country back.


Are you really so keen to stay in a union underpinned by the Euro (a dead currency walking) which is currently having another of its death throws! Although I see they are proposing 'more Europe' in response.
You can thank us Lexit voters later!

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:17 - May 30 with 6261 viewswkj

I'm looking forward to the third referendum more...

"Just making sure this is what you really want"

The whole situation is crapo anyway; ignoring the leave or remain dynamic, the way everything is being handled now is messy and has, unsurprisingly, turned into a political battleground.

The longer this draws on and on, the less attention we devote to domestic issues, so a string of referendums would damage the stability of the UK more than if we either never had a referendum in the first place, or the conservatives just get on with it without in-fighting and dealing with jabs from camp corbyn, and whatever boIlocks comes down from lords.
[Post edited 30 May 2018 12:19]

Crybaby
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:25 - May 30 with 6226 viewsBlueBadger

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:16 - May 30 by BanksterDebtSlave

Are you really so keen to stay in a union underpinned by the Euro (a dead currency walking) which is currently having another of its death throws! Although I see they are proposing 'more Europe' in response.
You can thank us Lexit voters later!


You Lexiters were useful idiots for the free-market loons who are trying to push as hard a sBrexit as possible. Well done for being a friend to Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nigel Farage

I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:25 - May 30 with 6226 viewsDarth_Koont

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:16 - May 30 by BanksterDebtSlave

Are you really so keen to stay in a union underpinned by the Euro (a dead currency walking) which is currently having another of its death throws! Although I see they are proposing 'more Europe' in response.
You can thank us Lexit voters later!


A cursory glance around the rest of the world and where things are heading suggests it's definitely not the time to strike out on our own especially without a plan or any real understanding of how to make one.

Not least because our very "planlessness" makes us look like a remarkably poor choice for overseas investment or as a trading partner.
[Post edited 30 May 2018 12:29]

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:28 - May 30 with 6210 viewsHerbivore

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:12 - May 30 by homer_123

Are they?

You're making quite a few assumptions there.

The EU is not in a great place for many, many reasons. Greece is still a thorn that hasn't been sorted. Italy, constitutionally and financially could cause all sorts of problems, still issues with one of the top 4 German banks that could cause a significant issue.

We were told, by experts, that the mere vote for Brexit would mean financial meltdown....that didn't happen and in many respects the economy is coping extremely well - would the economy be better had we voted to remain, possibly unlikely - although both are still somewhat short term but either way, the doom and distater of a Brexit hasn't materialised.

EDIT: for balance, I think the EU has brought many, many positives!

FURTHER EDIT: that poverty you refer to is actually less linked with Brexit than other factors anyway - the step back on social mobility and the gap between the wealthy and the poor is not linked with Brexit.
[Post edited 30 May 2018 12:19]


Our economy has grown more slowly than other developed countries. The Bank of England had to pump in some serious cash too right at the beginning to help guard against us slipping into recession. It's not like all has been rosy and we haven't even left yet. Even if the economic forecasts relating to us actually leaving are, say, 50% inflated we're still going to be much worse off. The performance of the economy is hard to predict exactly but when all forecasts put you significantly worse off you can't just ignore that. And that's only focusing on the economic argument, there are plenty of others.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:34 - May 30 with 6176 viewshomer_123

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:28 - May 30 by Herbivore

Our economy has grown more slowly than other developed countries. The Bank of England had to pump in some serious cash too right at the beginning to help guard against us slipping into recession. It's not like all has been rosy and we haven't even left yet. Even if the economic forecasts relating to us actually leaving are, say, 50% inflated we're still going to be much worse off. The performance of the economy is hard to predict exactly but when all forecasts put you significantly worse off you can't just ignore that. And that's only focusing on the economic argument, there are plenty of others.


It has indeed grown more slowly that other developed countries but how much of that is down to Brexit? A contributing factor but not the most significant, we can look at our continued poor levels of productivity that have been that way since way before the Brexit vote, as just one example of a more significant contributing factor to our slower growth.

Yes, the BoE did indeed pump in cash - but we were nowhere near a recession - in fact, if memory serves, a fair few reports suggested that the economy performed way better than 'predicted' (therein lies a problem we both agree on Herbs - very hard to predict aren't they, even though all the experts said that a mere vote would mean a disaster, it didn't happen).

There are many good arguments for staying in the EU - don't get me wrong. But to be blind to the fact that the EU (in it's current guise both politically and financial) is in a good place or doesn't need significant change or have serious problems (beyond the magnitude of ours) seems somewhat odd to me.

There is an argument that by staying in we can shape that needed change and I'd agree - however, what happened that last time we went for those? David Cameron came back almost empty handed.
[Post edited 30 May 2018 12:37]

Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:37 - May 30 with 6147 viewsDarth_Koont

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:34 - May 30 by homer_123

It has indeed grown more slowly that other developed countries but how much of that is down to Brexit? A contributing factor but not the most significant, we can look at our continued poor levels of productivity that have been that way since way before the Brexit vote, as just one example of a more significant contributing factor to our slower growth.

Yes, the BoE did indeed pump in cash - but we were nowhere near a recession - in fact, if memory serves, a fair few reports suggested that the economy performed way better than 'predicted' (therein lies a problem we both agree on Herbs - very hard to predict aren't they, even though all the experts said that a mere vote would mean a disaster, it didn't happen).

There are many good arguments for staying in the EU - don't get me wrong. But to be blind to the fact that the EU (in it's current guise both politically and financial) is in a good place or doesn't need significant change or have serious problems (beyond the magnitude of ours) seems somewhat odd to me.

There is an argument that by staying in we can shape that needed change and I'd agree - however, what happened that last time we went for those? David Cameron came back almost empty handed.
[Post edited 30 May 2018 12:37]


But the question remains: what is in the bigger trouble and with more need of reform? The UK or the EU?

We look an utter basket case.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:39 - May 30 with 6134 viewsHerbivore

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:34 - May 30 by homer_123

It has indeed grown more slowly that other developed countries but how much of that is down to Brexit? A contributing factor but not the most significant, we can look at our continued poor levels of productivity that have been that way since way before the Brexit vote, as just one example of a more significant contributing factor to our slower growth.

Yes, the BoE did indeed pump in cash - but we were nowhere near a recession - in fact, if memory serves, a fair few reports suggested that the economy performed way better than 'predicted' (therein lies a problem we both agree on Herbs - very hard to predict aren't they, even though all the experts said that a mere vote would mean a disaster, it didn't happen).

There are many good arguments for staying in the EU - don't get me wrong. But to be blind to the fact that the EU (in it's current guise both politically and financial) is in a good place or doesn't need significant change or have serious problems (beyond the magnitude of ours) seems somewhat odd to me.

There is an argument that by staying in we can shape that needed change and I'd agree - however, what happened that last time we went for those? David Cameron came back almost empty handed.
[Post edited 30 May 2018 12:37]


That's because Cameron was utterly ineffectual and went over with the deluded toff attitude that because we're Britain and because he went to public school he should be able to give them a list of demands and they should simply acquiesce. He led a party with a rabid Eurosceptic wing with disproportionate influence and it is that wing (and the press that panders to them) that has hindered us from being a more important player in Europe. Had we committed wholeheartedly instead of trying to maintain a position of being in but wanting to stand a bit apart we could have done an awful lot more to affect change imo.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:42 - May 30 with 6120 viewshomer_123

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:37 - May 30 by Darth_Koont

But the question remains: what is in the bigger trouble and with more need of reform? The UK or the EU?

We look an utter basket case.


'We look an utter basket case.'

I think that's neither fair nor true. If it were true then we'd see big business and others not investing in the UK - that isn't the case at all is it?

We've chosen a path that some will find very odd and mad, but that isn't everyone, far from it.

As far as we can see, our international standing is no less than it was before the Brexit vote, for example.

We're not perfect - we weren't perfect before Brexit, neither is the EU. Over the past 5 to 10 years, our ability to shape the EU has been poor and given the direction the EU wants to go (see my posts on the Woolonia situ), how it's crippled Greece, the Italy situ and the German Banking situ - it's no bed of roses.

It is entirely possible that in 5, 10 or 25 years time - leaving the EU might prove to be a lot more astute than saying in. By the way, we were never really in though were we?

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:45 - May 30 with 6111 viewsHerbivore

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:42 - May 30 by homer_123

'We look an utter basket case.'

I think that's neither fair nor true. If it were true then we'd see big business and others not investing in the UK - that isn't the case at all is it?

We've chosen a path that some will find very odd and mad, but that isn't everyone, far from it.

As far as we can see, our international standing is no less than it was before the Brexit vote, for example.

We're not perfect - we weren't perfect before Brexit, neither is the EU. Over the past 5 to 10 years, our ability to shape the EU has been poor and given the direction the EU wants to go (see my posts on the Woolonia situ), how it's crippled Greece, the Italy situ and the German Banking situ - it's no bed of roses.

It is entirely possible that in 5, 10 or 25 years time - leaving the EU might prove to be a lot more astute than saying in. By the way, we were never really in though were we?


Over the last 10 years we've had a Tory government who, for ideological reasons that the majority of their MPs don't even agree with, don't want to be seen to be doing deals with Brussels.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:45 - May 30 with 6107 viewsDarth_Koont

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:39 - May 30 by Herbivore

That's because Cameron was utterly ineffectual and went over with the deluded toff attitude that because we're Britain and because he went to public school he should be able to give them a list of demands and they should simply acquiesce. He led a party with a rabid Eurosceptic wing with disproportionate influence and it is that wing (and the press that panders to them) that has hindered us from being a more important player in Europe. Had we committed wholeheartedly instead of trying to maintain a position of being in but wanting to stand a bit apart we could have done an awful lot more to affect change imo.


Absolutely.

Problem is that the EU has been the convenient scapegoat for decades in the right-wing media and our lazy political arena, that we almost never heard about the benefits until it came to an insane referendum. Too little too late.

That also stopped political parties and governments engaging with the EU on genuine mutual interest terms because of how it would "play at home".

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:46 - May 30 with 6102 viewshomer_123

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:39 - May 30 by Herbivore

That's because Cameron was utterly ineffectual and went over with the deluded toff attitude that because we're Britain and because he went to public school he should be able to give them a list of demands and they should simply acquiesce. He led a party with a rabid Eurosceptic wing with disproportionate influence and it is that wing (and the press that panders to them) that has hindered us from being a more important player in Europe. Had we committed wholeheartedly instead of trying to maintain a position of being in but wanting to stand a bit apart we could have done an awful lot more to affect change imo.


As I've posted below though Herbs - we've never really been in have we? From the outset.

In fact, history shows we are more akin and aligned with Countries such as Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Finland that our closer neighbors.

Would you say that May or Corby would have better luck negotiating with the EU?

Serious question, given the current state of the EU, would you want to be fully in? Euro and all? Given the Greece and Italy situ and where the EU wants to head in terms of decision making?

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:46 - May 30 with 6100 viewsHerbivore

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:45 - May 30 by Darth_Koont

Absolutely.

Problem is that the EU has been the convenient scapegoat for decades in the right-wing media and our lazy political arena, that we almost never heard about the benefits until it came to an insane referendum. Too little too late.

That also stopped political parties and governments engaging with the EU on genuine mutual interest terms because of how it would "play at home".


A section of our population either think it still is or would like it to be 1950.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:47 - May 30 with 6098 viewshomer_123

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:45 - May 30 by Darth_Koont

Absolutely.

Problem is that the EU has been the convenient scapegoat for decades in the right-wing media and our lazy political arena, that we almost never heard about the benefits until it came to an insane referendum. Too little too late.

That also stopped political parties and governments engaging with the EU on genuine mutual interest terms because of how it would "play at home".


The benefits of the EU are clear for anyone with a modicum of sense DK. Everything from massive big scale stuff such as ensuring Europe doesn't go to war with itself to many others.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:49 - May 30 with 6092 viewsDarth_Koont

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:42 - May 30 by homer_123

'We look an utter basket case.'

I think that's neither fair nor true. If it were true then we'd see big business and others not investing in the UK - that isn't the case at all is it?

We've chosen a path that some will find very odd and mad, but that isn't everyone, far from it.

As far as we can see, our international standing is no less than it was before the Brexit vote, for example.

We're not perfect - we weren't perfect before Brexit, neither is the EU. Over the past 5 to 10 years, our ability to shape the EU has been poor and given the direction the EU wants to go (see my posts on the Woolonia situ), how it's crippled Greece, the Italy situ and the German Banking situ - it's no bed of roses.

It is entirely possible that in 5, 10 or 25 years time - leaving the EU might prove to be a lot more astute than saying in. By the way, we were never really in though were we?


That's what we look like though.

If the government has to sweeten deals for investment by guaranteeing profits or waiving taxes then it will. Many companies can be enticed to take those deals as they're still thinking quarters and projected earnings/costs over a relatively short term.

The long-term risk assessment, certainly for trading companies, is pretty dire.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:51 - May 30 with 6082 viewsGollum

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:00 - May 30 by Darth_Koont

I think learning is pretty well understood by most Remainers.

Will the Brexiteers learn anything about anything? If we could somehow let the 52% leave then that would be great. For the most part, they're a drain on society and holding the country back.


Either your having a laugh or you're a complete tw@t.
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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:56 - May 30 with 6054 viewsSpruceMoose

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:12 - May 30 by J2BLUE

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a second referendum. Having Soros announce it and be linked so strongly to it really isn't going to help convince most people it's best for the country.


Most people couldn't even tell you anything about Soros. He's just an alt-right boogie man.

And I don;t mean he likes to dance.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:57 - May 30 with 6056 viewsMJallday

Soros of course, being roundly known for his actions in looking after british economy of course.

im surprised he hasnt met with a nasty end after what he did in 1992

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:59 - May 30 with 6036 viewsDarth_Koont

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:47 - May 30 by homer_123

The benefits of the EU are clear for anyone with a modicum of sense DK. Everything from massive big scale stuff such as ensuring Europe doesn't go to war with itself to many others.


But they're not clear though. We are an island geographically but also mentally and even many sensible people are unaware of what's really out there beyond the UK bubble.

The penny may have dropped by now about our manufacturing industry but they have little to no idea that the foundations of our service economy is getting eroded by technology and the rest of Western Europe and beyond catching up.

A strong alliance and voice within Europe helped mask the loss of our historical advantages. Now apparently we're going to abandon that and re-invent ourselves as entrepreneurs in fields we haven't remotely invested enough in.

We look like an immature teenager leaving home in a strop and saying they're going to get their own house.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:01 - May 30 with 6021 viewsDarth_Koont

Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 12:51 - May 30 by Gollum

Either your having a laugh or you're a complete tw@t.


Shhh. The adults are talking.

Go and find something to do.

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Campaign for a second referendum announced by George Soros on 13:08 - May 30 with 6002 viewsgiant_stow

The odd thing is, this whole stolen Italian election (mk 2) is reminding me exactly whey I was tempted to vote leave. The EU big cheeses just can't go on ignoring the people like they are or it'll all blow up.

Having said that, pragmatism still rules the day for this remainer.

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