| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. 20:18 - Jun 13 with 74628 views | ITFC_Forever |
FFS. |  |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:07 - Jun 14 with 2705 views | slump |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:00 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
They ought to yes but they don't. They just don't care. Their argument then becomes "legalize everything" so they can carry on their pleasures without a thought for the further destruction this would commit on our society. |
However not everyone, despite who preaches or educates or dictates, feels or will feel that way. Hence why it's not working currently. |  |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:11 - Jun 14 with 2701 views | Herbivore |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:00 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
They ought to yes but they don't. They just don't care. Their argument then becomes "legalize everything" so they can carry on their pleasures without a thought for the further destruction this would commit on our society. |
What further destruction do you see coming from legalisation? Countries with a more tolerant approach to drug use have less problematic drug use than we have in the UK. The criminal side of it goes if properly regulated. What's your beef? Do you think alcohol should be made illegal too out of interest? |  |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:13 - Jun 14 with 2693 views | chicoazul |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 13:13 - Jun 14 by giant_stow |
That's another argument for legalising, regulating and taxing drugs.
Chico, if you're reading, I do wish you'd explain what's wrong with doing the above and why users must instead just stop. One's much more doable than the other and would be a win win. |
My argument on this is quite straightforward; we see every day the harm that alcohol and tobacco do to our fellow citizens and to people around the world, and the profits that companies make from this misery. Why do we want to *add to this already-extant problem* by legalizing for instance, coke? People then say "you can regulate the supply and the quality", that would then lead to a black market similar perhaps to the black market in fags with no duty paid just as an example off the top of my head. People also say things like the proceeds from drug sales could be put back into the NHS, and I would direct them here; https://fullfact.org/economy/does-smoking-cost-much-it-makes-treasury/ and also remind them that smoking tends not to play a large part in things like people going on a drug fuelled rampage, beating people up, trying to kill themselves etc
If it's true that a significant number of drug users are the "reasonable and intelligent" recreational users we have seen alluded to in this thread then addiction is not the problem and these alleged reasonable and intelligent people can be persuaded of the wrongness of their actions. Since there is a direct correlation between their actions and the mayhem on the streets of London and elsewhere.
Do people just not care? I don't think so. I do think however that they don't put two and two together. That's where your boi comes in to lecture people in my no-doubt boring and hectoring way.
I know not all drug users are reseholes. But I do think that if they thought a bit more about the cost of what they do they might stop doing it. |  |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:15 - Jun 14 with 2682 views | noggin |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 13:55 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
You think it's fun, others think this fun comes at a cost as it is dangerous destructive and is slowly wrecking our inner cities. But I appreciate it seems very few people care about this. |
It is destructive because it is illegal. Have you ever tried an illegal drug? If not, why not? |  |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:16 - Jun 14 with 2678 views | giant_stow |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 13:44 - Jun 14 by Funge |
'Sensible and reasonable people who take recreational illegal drugs ought to have a care for where it comes from and the consequences of maintaining a worldwide industry that propagates suffering.'
This is it, in a nutshell. Many people (myself included) are inherently selfish, though.
Chico is getting pelters here; seems a bit unreasonable really. |
Chico can take it - perhaps even wants it!
Here's a little example of why he's wrong though.
In the case of cannabis, if a bod gets caught with a personal-sized bag of weed, the chances are, he will get in not much trouble - maybe a fine or a caution.
If a person is caught growing a few plants, they could be in deep sh1t, depending on where they are, and might even be looking at a short spell in prison.
So there's a perverse incentive to buy that small bag, off who knows who - perhaps that bag has passed through all sorts of gangs' hands. If it were legal to grow your own, no more gangs supplying it.
Where you're right is that people are selfish and won't just give up their drugs, so what we're talking about is actually a war on drug users - impossible to win even with vastly increased spending on police and enforcement.
However, if drugs were legalised, regulated and taxed, the quality would be better, gangs would be put out of business and the money generated could be spent on things suggested by badger's excellent post earlier in the thread and perhaps on rehab programs for the problem users or more money on police to fight the non-drug-related violence..
Its not good enough to just say drug users are selfish - its true, but its also true of car-users, alcohol users, meat eaters, people who fly too much, people who pay minimum wage when they could afford to pay more, etc etc... |  |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:17 - Jun 14 with 2669 views | Herbivore |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:13 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
My argument on this is quite straightforward; we see every day the harm that alcohol and tobacco do to our fellow citizens and to people around the world, and the profits that companies make from this misery. Why do we want to *add to this already-extant problem* by legalizing for instance, coke? People then say "you can regulate the supply and the quality", that would then lead to a black market similar perhaps to the black market in fags with no duty paid just as an example off the top of my head. People also say things like the proceeds from drug sales could be put back into the NHS, and I would direct them here; https://fullfact.org/economy/does-smoking-cost-much-it-makes-treasury/ and also remind them that smoking tends not to play a large part in things like people going on a drug fuelled rampage, beating people up, trying to kill themselves etc
If it's true that a significant number of drug users are the "reasonable and intelligent" recreational users we have seen alluded to in this thread then addiction is not the problem and these alleged reasonable and intelligent people can be persuaded of the wrongness of their actions. Since there is a direct correlation between their actions and the mayhem on the streets of London and elsewhere.
Do people just not care? I don't think so. I do think however that they don't put two and two together. That's where your boi comes in to lecture people in my no-doubt boring and hectoring way.
I know not all drug users are reseholes. But I do think that if they thought a bit more about the cost of what they do they might stop doing it. |
Trends for drinking alcohol and smoking are both downward, particularly amongst young people, despite them being legal. This is because these substances being legal enables a sensible public health approach to be taken rather than an outdated and failing criminal approach. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:22 - Jun 14 with 2656 views | chicoazul |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:17 - Jun 14 by Herbivore |
Trends for drinking alcohol and smoking are both downward, particularly amongst young people, despite them being legal. This is because these substances being legal enables a sensible public health approach to be taken rather than an outdated and failing criminal approach. |
OK, so let's first legalise drugs for 50 years so we can monitor if the same trend happens? No ta. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:23 - Jun 14 with 2653 views | chicoazul |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:15 - Jun 14 by noggin |
It is destructive because it is illegal. Have you ever tried an illegal drug? If not, why not? |
I have taken drugs yes. I even smoked H by accident once (thought it was just a joint). I stopped. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:25 - Jun 14 with 2642 views | Herbivore |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:22 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
OK, so let's first legalise drugs for 50 years so we can monitor if the same trend happens? No ta. |
So let's ban alcohol as well then, yeah? | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:27 - Jun 14 with 2641 views | chicoazul |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:25 - Jun 14 by Herbivore |
So let's ban alcohol as well then, yeah? |
No, that's impossible. It's been legal for years and would be pointless. Drugs arent legal, well, not yet, although many police forces dont even press people on marijuana possession anymore. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:32 - Jun 14 with 2617 views | Herbivore |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:27 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
No, that's impossible. It's been legal for years and would be pointless. Drugs arent legal, well, not yet, although many police forces dont even press people on marijuana possession anymore. |
Why is it impossible? It's harmful so people shouldn't be allowed to take it. That is your argument in respect of other drugs when the question of legalizing is raised so why the inconsistency?
Meat and dairy production is massively damaging to the environment and will likely lead to the destruction of the planet far more quickly than people doing a bit of coke will. What's your stance on the ethics of these people who eat meat?
This is the issue with conservatism, when you equate morality to social convention and law first and foremost you can't help but end up holding a lot of contradictory views that don't stand up to much scrutiny. Either be a puritan or don't, mate. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:35 - Jun 14 with 2612 views | giant_stow |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:13 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
My argument on this is quite straightforward; we see every day the harm that alcohol and tobacco do to our fellow citizens and to people around the world, and the profits that companies make from this misery. Why do we want to *add to this already-extant problem* by legalizing for instance, coke? People then say "you can regulate the supply and the quality", that would then lead to a black market similar perhaps to the black market in fags with no duty paid just as an example off the top of my head. People also say things like the proceeds from drug sales could be put back into the NHS, and I would direct them here; https://fullfact.org/economy/does-smoking-cost-much-it-makes-treasury/ and also remind them that smoking tends not to play a large part in things like people going on a drug fuelled rampage, beating people up, trying to kill themselves etc
If it's true that a significant number of drug users are the "reasonable and intelligent" recreational users we have seen alluded to in this thread then addiction is not the problem and these alleged reasonable and intelligent people can be persuaded of the wrongness of their actions. Since there is a direct correlation between their actions and the mayhem on the streets of London and elsewhere.
Do people just not care? I don't think so. I do think however that they don't put two and two together. That's where your boi comes in to lecture people in my no-doubt boring and hectoring way.
I know not all drug users are reseholes. But I do think that if they thought a bit more about the cost of what they do they might stop doing it. |
I've only skim read that link but it appears to say that at worse, smokers pay for themselves in tax and that's based on some fairly one-sided assumptions. No mention (that I could see) of the employment gains and associated tax from people employed by the NHS to tackle smoking-related illness.
So if Drugs were legalised, this suggests that the tax would at least pay for the treatment and rehab costs. Good! We're up already on the current state of play.
People may well go on drugs-caused rampages, but just how many episodes like are caused by alcohol, which is legal and taxed? Far more I'd guess.
As I said above, people are indeed selfish and in many many ways which are often detrimental to society. Unless you want some cyborg-enabled borg-like society (I think you're a sci-fi fan?!) then people always will be - its our strength and weakness. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:38 - Jun 14 with 2595 views | chicoazul |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:32 - Jun 14 by Herbivore |
Why is it impossible? It's harmful so people shouldn't be allowed to take it. That is your argument in respect of other drugs when the question of legalizing is raised so why the inconsistency?
Meat and dairy production is massively damaging to the environment and will likely lead to the destruction of the planet far more quickly than people doing a bit of coke will. What's your stance on the ethics of these people who eat meat?
This is the issue with conservatism, when you equate morality to social convention and law first and foremost you can't help but end up holding a lot of contradictory views that don't stand up to much scrutiny. Either be a puritan or don't, mate. |
Please don't call me mate. We aren't friends.
It's impossible to immediately make alcohol illegal. The presence of one poison doesn't justify the presence of many others. Alcohol has been very destructive in our society but nevertheless using the fact it is free to buy over a counter doesnt mean coke should be too as I confidently predict the consequences of that would be far *worse*.
I appreciate what you're saying on those other issues and I may weigh in on them some time but for now I keep my lecturing to drugs. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:39 - Jun 14 with 2590 views | chicoazul |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:35 - Jun 14 by giant_stow |
I've only skim read that link but it appears to say that at worse, smokers pay for themselves in tax and that's based on some fairly one-sided assumptions. No mention (that I could see) of the employment gains and associated tax from people employed by the NHS to tackle smoking-related illness.
So if Drugs were legalised, this suggests that the tax would at least pay for the treatment and rehab costs. Good! We're up already on the current state of play.
People may well go on drugs-caused rampages, but just how many episodes like are caused by alcohol, which is legal and taxed? Far more I'd guess.
As I said above, people are indeed selfish and in many many ways which are often detrimental to society. Unless you want some cyborg-enabled borg-like society (I think you're a sci-fi fan?!) then people always will be - its our strength and weakness. |
So you literally asked me, I answered, and you cant be bothered to read it properly?
EDIT: sorry! Ironically I didnt read your post properly! I'll reply properly shortly. [Post edited 14 Jun 2018 14:40]
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:41 - Jun 14 with 2577 views | noggin |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:38 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
Please don't call me mate. We aren't friends.
It's impossible to immediately make alcohol illegal. The presence of one poison doesn't justify the presence of many others. Alcohol has been very destructive in our society but nevertheless using the fact it is free to buy over a counter doesnt mean coke should be too as I confidently predict the consequences of that would be far *worse*.
I appreciate what you're saying on those other issues and I may weigh in on them some time but for now I keep my lecturing to drugs. |
Making drugs illegal isn't working. What do you suggest? | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:41 - Jun 14 with 2574 views | giant_stow |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:39 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
So you literally asked me, I answered, and you cant be bothered to read it properly?
EDIT: sorry! Ironically I didnt read your post properly! I'll reply properly shortly. [Post edited 14 Jun 2018 14:40]
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give us a hug grumpy chops! | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:45 - Jun 14 with 2558 views | chicoazul |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:41 - Jun 14 by noggin |
Making drugs illegal isn't working. What do you suggest? |
I don't understand. What isnt working? The majority of people dont take drugs and the *vast* majority of people who have no longer do, this may be in large part because these drugs are still illegal (certainly Class As are anyway). However there are significant societal problems as a result of this selfish minorities actions.
My suggestion is that they inform themselves of the consequences of their hobby and stop. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:45 - Jun 14 with 2555 views | chicoazul |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:41 - Jun 14 by giant_stow |
give us a hug grumpy chops! |
XOXO | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:57 - Jun 14 with 2521 views | Herbivore |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:38 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
Please don't call me mate. We aren't friends.
It's impossible to immediately make alcohol illegal. The presence of one poison doesn't justify the presence of many others. Alcohol has been very destructive in our society but nevertheless using the fact it is free to buy over a counter doesnt mean coke should be too as I confidently predict the consequences of that would be far *worse*.
I appreciate what you're saying on those other issues and I may weigh in on them some time but for now I keep my lecturing to drugs. |
What is your evidence base for confidently predicting that legalizing something like coke would be worse than alcohol being legal?
From an ethical standpoint I don't know how you justify not thinking a harmful drug like alcohol should be banned given your reasons for not being willing to countenance other drugs being made legal. If it's purely pragmatic rather than ethical then there are plenty of pragmatic reasons given on this thread for legalizing other drugs. I suspect it's a form of squeamishness borne out of your extreme conservatism, mate. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 15:26 - Jun 14 with 2472 views | linhdi |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:57 - Jun 14 by Herbivore |
What is your evidence base for confidently predicting that legalizing something like coke would be worse than alcohol being legal?
From an ethical standpoint I don't know how you justify not thinking a harmful drug like alcohol should be banned given your reasons for not being willing to countenance other drugs being made legal. If it's purely pragmatic rather than ethical then there are plenty of pragmatic reasons given on this thread for legalizing other drugs. I suspect it's a form of squeamishness borne out of your extreme conservatism, mate. |
Just a thought, maybe a mad one . Even January, a heck of a lot (maybe a majority) of drinkers give up, for the sale of their health, to save cash or whatever. Now, how about an anti-drug gangs campaign that began with a majority of casual drug users voluntarily giving up for a month? Would that do enough to disrupt the supply lines and stop a lot of gang-related activity? |  | | |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 15:37 - Jun 14 with 2454 views | Herbivore |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 15:26 - Jun 14 by linhdi |
Just a thought, maybe a mad one . Even January, a heck of a lot (maybe a majority) of drinkers give up, for the sale of their health, to save cash or whatever. Now, how about an anti-drug gangs campaign that began with a majority of casual drug users voluntarily giving up for a month? Would that do enough to disrupt the supply lines and stop a lot of gang-related activity? |
No. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 15:44 - Jun 14 with 2449 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 13:44 - Jun 14 by Funge |
'Sensible and reasonable people who take recreational illegal drugs ought to have a care for where it comes from and the consequences of maintaining a worldwide industry that propagates suffering.'
This is it, in a nutshell. Many people (myself included) are inherently selfish, though.
Chico is getting pelters here; seems a bit unreasonable really. |
If he had said this then he wouldn't be but I think he got there a few posts back. What and who he is talking about though has almost nothing to do with the drug trade involving gangs and stabbings etc..... |  |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 15:46 - Jun 14 with 2446 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 13:55 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
You think it's fun, others think this fun comes at a cost as it is dangerous destructive and is slowly wrecking our inner cities. But I appreciate it seems very few people care about this. |
I take back part of the previous post......he's still not got it. | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 15:51 - Jun 14 with 2439 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:13 - Jun 14 by chicoazul |
My argument on this is quite straightforward; we see every day the harm that alcohol and tobacco do to our fellow citizens and to people around the world, and the profits that companies make from this misery. Why do we want to *add to this already-extant problem* by legalizing for instance, coke? People then say "you can regulate the supply and the quality", that would then lead to a black market similar perhaps to the black market in fags with no duty paid just as an example off the top of my head. People also say things like the proceeds from drug sales could be put back into the NHS, and I would direct them here; https://fullfact.org/economy/does-smoking-cost-much-it-makes-treasury/ and also remind them that smoking tends not to play a large part in things like people going on a drug fuelled rampage, beating people up, trying to kill themselves etc
If it's true that a significant number of drug users are the "reasonable and intelligent" recreational users we have seen alluded to in this thread then addiction is not the problem and these alleged reasonable and intelligent people can be persuaded of the wrongness of their actions. Since there is a direct correlation between their actions and the mayhem on the streets of London and elsewhere.
Do people just not care? I don't think so. I do think however that they don't put two and two together. That's where your boi comes in to lecture people in my no-doubt boring and hectoring way.
I know not all drug users are reseholes. But I do think that if they thought a bit more about the cost of what they do they might stop doing it. |
Paragraph 2 is where it all falls apart as it IS all about addiction in this instance! | |
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| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 15:56 - Jun 14 with 2426 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Another stabbing apparently - Ravenswood McDonalds. on 14:41 - Jun 14 by giant_stow |
give us a hug grumpy chops! |
Don't mention chops, it will make him even hungrier! (and more grumpy) | |
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