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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime 09:40 - Jun 21 with 3732 viewsGuthrum

https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2018/jun/21/radical-lessons-knife-crime-b

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 11:01 - Jun 21 with 3694 viewsSteve_M

Thanks for posting that. It's really good and thought provoking.

A couple of points stand out:

1). Just treating crime as a public order issue isn't going to solve it, it's the kind of knee-jerk response that has underlined the last thirty years of politics (see also drugs;

2). An aggressive attempt to shrink the size of the state has consequences, eight years of doing so has severe consequences. The police cuts are the obvious side of that but it's also clear that the reduction in youth services is a factor here too.

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 12:20 - Jun 21 with 3679 viewsFrowsyArmLarry

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 11:01 - Jun 21 by Steve_M

Thanks for posting that. It's really good and thought provoking.

A couple of points stand out:

1). Just treating crime as a public order issue isn't going to solve it, it's the kind of knee-jerk response that has underlined the last thirty years of politics (see also drugs;

2). An aggressive attempt to shrink the size of the state has consequences, eight years of doing so has severe consequences. The police cuts are the obvious side of that but it's also clear that the reduction in youth services is a factor here too.


The two things I took out of that were:

1) it’s no surprise that the root problem is the parents, or lack thereof
2) the Glasgow solution won’t work in London because it’s not possible to identify a core group there for fear of racial bias.
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 12:53 - Jun 21 with 3658 viewsHerbivore

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 12:20 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

The two things I took out of that were:

1) it’s no surprise that the root problem is the parents, or lack thereof
2) the Glasgow solution won’t work in London because it’s not possible to identify a core group there for fear of racial bias.


That's what you took from it? Blimey.

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 13:26 - Jun 21 with 3640 viewstcblue

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 11:01 - Jun 21 by Steve_M

Thanks for posting that. It's really good and thought provoking.

A couple of points stand out:

1). Just treating crime as a public order issue isn't going to solve it, it's the kind of knee-jerk response that has underlined the last thirty years of politics (see also drugs;

2). An aggressive attempt to shrink the size of the state has consequences, eight years of doing so has severe consequences. The police cuts are the obvious side of that but it's also clear that the reduction in youth services is a factor here too.


A public health issue, not public order.

If we continue to be reactive and punish retrospectively rather than prevent proactively (by taking a view at the root causes, rather than just dismissing it as some sort of London-centric, racial problem we can 'fix' by stop and search) then nothing really changes. That was my take away from the article, anyway.
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 13:28 - Jun 21 with 3638 viewsFrowsyArmLarry

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 12:53 - Jun 21 by Herbivore

That's what you took from it? Blimey.


Read the bit about the action taken by the Scottish police.

Also “Dick said most offenders “are people who have suffered some kind of adverse experience of a significant sort when they are young, and/or have limited or problematic family lives and parenting — all things that can lead to other negative outcomes, not just serious violence.”
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 13:35 - Jun 21 with 3625 viewsHerbivore

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 13:28 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

Read the bit about the action taken by the Scottish police.

Also “Dick said most offenders “are people who have suffered some kind of adverse experience of a significant sort when they are young, and/or have limited or problematic family lives and parenting — all things that can lead to other negative outcomes, not just serious violence.”


I just find it odd that those two bits are your overall take away message from that very informative article.

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 13:39 - Jun 21 with 3619 viewsFrowsyArmLarry

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 13:35 - Jun 21 by Herbivore

I just find it odd that those two bits are your overall take away message from that very informative article.


Like the article says, it’s not a big problem - just very newsworthy
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 14:41 - Jun 21 with 3589 viewsHerbivore

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 13:39 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

Like the article says, it’s not a big problem - just very newsworthy


That's also what you took from it?!

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:05 - Jun 21 with 3573 viewsFrowsyArmLarry

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 14:41 - Jun 21 by Herbivore

That's also what you took from it?!


I agree with Gary that the problem isn’t down to race, but it’s also obvious to me that fear of political policing mean that we can’t do, for example, stop and search which was a part of the solution in Glasgow. Instead it seems Gary is advocating that the state steps in as the role of parent which is ridiculous
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:08 - Jun 21 with 3567 viewsHerbivore

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:05 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

I agree with Gary that the problem isn’t down to race, but it’s also obvious to me that fear of political policing mean that we can’t do, for example, stop and search which was a part of the solution in Glasgow. Instead it seems Gary is advocating that the state steps in as the role of parent which is ridiculous


Did you read it? If you did I'm not sure you understood it.

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:24 - Jun 21 with 3551 viewseireblue

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:05 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

I agree with Gary that the problem isn’t down to race, but it’s also obvious to me that fear of political policing mean that we can’t do, for example, stop and search which was a part of the solution in Glasgow. Instead it seems Gary is advocating that the state steps in as the role of parent which is ridiculous


Your logic seems flawed to me.

If your proposition is that bad parenting/family/ are a factor contributing such criminal activity and it is ridiculous that the state will step in as a result of those issues.

Then your logic is ridiculous. The state will step in. Police are still part of the state.

The question is what is the best way for the state to step-in.

Have you never heard of the phrase a stitch in time saves nine?
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:29 - Jun 21 with 3541 viewsHerbivore

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:24 - Jun 21 by eireblue

Your logic seems flawed to me.

If your proposition is that bad parenting/family/ are a factor contributing such criminal activity and it is ridiculous that the state will step in as a result of those issues.

Then your logic is ridiculous. The state will step in. Police are still part of the state.

The question is what is the best way for the state to step-in.

Have you never heard of the phrase a stitch in time saves nine?


And that is just one element of his complete misinterpretation of a very thought-provoking article.

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:49 - Jun 21 with 3527 viewsFrowsyArmLarry

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:24 - Jun 21 by eireblue

Your logic seems flawed to me.

If your proposition is that bad parenting/family/ are a factor contributing such criminal activity and it is ridiculous that the state will step in as a result of those issues.

Then your logic is ridiculous. The state will step in. Police are still part of the state.

The question is what is the best way for the state to step-in.

Have you never heard of the phrase a stitch in time saves nine?


Well yes, but that is most likely the cheapest option in reality
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:57 - Jun 21 with 3517 viewsSpruceMoose

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:49 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

Well yes, but that is most likely the cheapest option in reality


Do you want cheap, or effective?

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 16:02 - Jun 21 with 3507 viewseireblue

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 15:49 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

Well yes, but that is most likely the cheapest option in reality


Not to the person that is a victim of a crime.

Sheeesh, see, your logic is all over the shop.

"most likely" isn't very confidence building.

And I think you are missing the point of the quote, early intervention, is more likely to be cheaper in the long run.

It is a British quote handed down through generations from the 1700's.

You could almost say, it is common sense.
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 16:36 - Jun 21 with 3493 viewsFrowsyArmLarry

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 16:02 - Jun 21 by eireblue

Not to the person that is a victim of a crime.

Sheeesh, see, your logic is all over the shop.

"most likely" isn't very confidence building.

And I think you are missing the point of the quote, early intervention, is more likely to be cheaper in the long run.

It is a British quote handed down through generations from the 1700's.

You could almost say, it is common sense.


To be fair the article jumps around a lot. I could get on board with early intervention though. One such solution would be stick them in the army if they fail at school
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 17:11 - Jun 21 with 3478 viewsHerbivore

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 16:36 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

To be fair the article jumps around a lot. I could get on board with early intervention though. One such solution would be stick them in the army if they fail at school


Jesus wept. You've read an intelligent article that highlights the complexity of the issue of knife crime and that urges understanding of that complexity in order to properly address it and your response has been to come out with trite, simplistic soundbites that are the exact opposite of what the article urges. This country is fcked.

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 17:36 - Jun 21 with 3465 viewseireblue

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 16:36 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

To be fair the article jumps around a lot. I could get on board with early intervention though. One such solution would be stick them in the army if they fail at school


Oh my word, your inner troll or genuine thought process is starting to fail badly on this one.

"Early"

How many pre-teens does the army need?

Is the Army still part of the state?
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 18:20 - Jun 21 with 3440 viewsFrowsyArmLarry

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 17:11 - Jun 21 by Herbivore

Jesus wept. You've read an intelligent article that highlights the complexity of the issue of knife crime and that urges understanding of that complexity in order to properly address it and your response has been to come out with trite, simplistic soundbites that are the exact opposite of what the article urges. This country is fcked.


I said one such solution. Of course intervening at any stage is too late, what we really need is to encourage good parenting. That’s the tricky bit because *most* parents are decent, some will struggle because of time and ability (which is where I agree the state can help with things like free pre and after school clubs), and then there are a die hard section of scummers that should be made accountable for their children’s actions.
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 19:04 - Jun 21 with 3411 viewsSpruceMoose

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 17:36 - Jun 21 by eireblue

Oh my word, your inner troll or genuine thought process is starting to fail badly on this one.

"Early"

How many pre-teens does the army need?

Is the Army still part of the state?


The army is of course famous for the excellent care it provides to ex-service men and women.

I am sure that these teenagers, once their time is up, would receive said care and attention. There's no way they would end up with staggering rates of homelessness, poverty and mental health issues.

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 19:35 - Jun 21 with 3394 viewsFrowsyArmLarry

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 19:04 - Jun 21 by SpruceMoose

The army is of course famous for the excellent care it provides to ex-service men and women.

I am sure that these teenagers, once their time is up, would receive said care and attention. There's no way they would end up with staggering rates of homelessness, poverty and mental health issues.


In reality the modern army wouldn’t be able to do anything with them. I was talking to someone recently who’s a clerk in the army and they were lamenting the fact there’s so much health and safety these days that there’s very little discipline. Twenty years ago a sergeant could physically punish someone, that’s not possible now
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 19:37 - Jun 21 with 3389 viewsHerbivore

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 19:35 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

In reality the modern army wouldn’t be able to do anything with them. I was talking to someone recently who’s a clerk in the army and they were lamenting the fact there’s so much health and safety these days that there’s very little discipline. Twenty years ago a sergeant could physically punish someone, that’s not possible now


You're advocating violence now? Stay classy.

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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 19:40 - Jun 21 with 3388 viewsFrowsyArmLarry

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 19:37 - Jun 21 by Herbivore

You're advocating violence now? Stay classy.


Just stating a fact. Also, fighting used to be part of army training and now it’s not

But the point I was making was that it’s difficult enough maintaining discipline with people who want to be there, let alone people who don’t
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 20:09 - Jun 21 with 3371 viewseireblue

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 19:04 - Jun 21 by SpruceMoose

The army is of course famous for the excellent care it provides to ex-service men and women.

I am sure that these teenagers, once their time is up, would receive said care and attention. There's no way they would end up with staggering rates of homelessness, poverty and mental health issues.


Look, I really think you are over looking how that latter option would most likely be a cheaper option, and so better.
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Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 20:24 - Jun 21 with 3358 viewsSpruceMoose

Interesting (long) read in the light of recent debates about UK knife crime on 19:35 - Jun 21 by FrowsyArmLarry

In reality the modern army wouldn’t be able to do anything with them. I was talking to someone recently who’s a clerk in the army and they were lamenting the fact there’s so much health and safety these days that there’s very little discipline. Twenty years ago a sergeant could physically punish someone, that’s not possible now


This is, finally, the point where I write you off as a troll.

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