| The worlds going down a very dark road 11:32 - Jun 21 with 17879 views | hype313 |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 18:23 - Jun 21 with 2753 views | HennikerBlu |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 18:15 - Jun 21 by Herbivore |
I don't think I've ever claimed the BBC have ever unequivocally presented the argument that climate change isn't man made. My point is that I don't see an issue with not giving a platform to that view and that not giving a platform differs from censorship.
Apologies for the previous reply, it was uncalled for. [Post edited 21 Jun 2018 19:00]
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Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.
Yes it is problematic having a balanced voice versus bonkers science. I see climate change as a massive issue and sadly the counter is quite orchestrated, financial and influential (Trump's actions for example). The problem for the BBC is these groups will buy airtime on other stations/platforms which can bizarrely make the BBC seem biased. Whilst the BBC is far from perfect I do think it tends to counter quite well, either undermining the arguments or providing good counter programmes.
Well argued! |  | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 18:34 - Jun 21 with 2740 views | bournemouthblue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 12:26 - Jun 21 by stig4532 |
Perhaps if the political establishment actually sorted the problems these groups are talking about, they wouldn't have any reason to exist. |
'Sorting' these issues are never straight forward or quick sadly
The Far Right are great at harnessing anger whilst totally forgetting logic
Their arguments are easier to argue quickly sadly and often gain traction with idiots :( |  |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:29 - Jun 21 with 2707 views | Leaky |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 17:18 - Jun 21 by Herbivore |
The impact of immigration on wages is minimal, so to describe that as a legitimate concern seems odd. The problem is that people hold views on certain things that are based on a feeling and not evidence, when presented with evidence they are often reluctant to let go of that feeling. It's hard to reason with such views when they aren't based on rational debate and the question arises how much of a platform is legitimate to give to views that are not well-founded and have been debunked. |
I cannot agree with you that the impact immigration has had on wages is minimal. I have worked in the construction industry for 50 years. I recently worked for a builder who was openly boasting that he was hiring Syrian refugee's as labourer's for £50.00 pound a day cash in hand, as he would have to pay a British worker £100 pounds a day plus pay their tax.. I did point out that the Syrians couldn't do much as they didn't understand any of our instructions he would have got more productivity by employing local labour. |  | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:39 - Jun 21 with 2696 views | Herbivore |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:29 - Jun 21 by Leaky |
I cannot agree with you that the impact immigration has had on wages is minimal. I have worked in the construction industry for 50 years. I recently worked for a builder who was openly boasting that he was hiring Syrian refugee's as labourer's for £50.00 pound a day cash in hand, as he would have to pay a British worker £100 pounds a day plus pay their tax.. I did point out that the Syrians couldn't do much as they didn't understand any of our instructions he would have got more productivity by employing local labour. |
Okay, I mean we could go with your one example or we could go with actual academic studies that show the impact of immigration on wages overall is under 0.5% (either up or down depending on the study). Up to you which one you want to go with. |  |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:45 - Jun 21 with 2686 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:29 - Jun 21 by Leaky |
I cannot agree with you that the impact immigration has had on wages is minimal. I have worked in the construction industry for 50 years. I recently worked for a builder who was openly boasting that he was hiring Syrian refugee's as labourer's for £50.00 pound a day cash in hand, as he would have to pay a British worker £100 pounds a day plus pay their tax.. I did point out that the Syrians couldn't do much as they didn't understand any of our instructions he would have got more productivity by employing local labour. |
Obviously foreign labour is effecting wages, no one can surely deny that - unless they are very mad.
The thing that makes me chuckle though is my mate Dave the Brickie who constantly moans that foreigners are undercutting him. I then point out that he did the same to the Germans when the wall came down. |  |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:46 - Jun 21 with 2685 views | m14_blue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:29 - Jun 21 by Leaky |
I cannot agree with you that the impact immigration has had on wages is minimal. I have worked in the construction industry for 50 years. I recently worked for a builder who was openly boasting that he was hiring Syrian refugee's as labourer's for £50.00 pound a day cash in hand, as he would have to pay a British worker £100 pounds a day plus pay their tax.. I did point out that the Syrians couldn't do much as they didn't understand any of our instructions he would have got more productivity by employing local labour. |
That's just someone breaking the law though, not really a reflection on the government's immigration policy. | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:49 - Jun 21 with 2678 views | J2BLUE |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:39 - Jun 21 by Herbivore |
Okay, I mean we could go with your one example or we could go with actual academic studies that show the impact of immigration on wages overall is under 0.5% (either up or down depending on the study). Up to you which one you want to go with. |
0.5% is overall I would imagine? Fairly clear that there are certain industries which have been hit hard.
Getting back to the general overall point, do you think there is any merit in my ideas? Bearing in mind the status quo has produced Brexit, Trump and a rise in nationalist groups across Europe/US do you think it would be worth trying another approach? |  |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:51 - Jun 21 with 2674 views | Herbivore |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:49 - Jun 21 by J2BLUE |
0.5% is overall I would imagine? Fairly clear that there are certain industries which have been hit hard.
Getting back to the general overall point, do you think there is any merit in my ideas? Bearing in mind the status quo has produced Brexit, Trump and a rise in nationalist groups across Europe/US do you think it would be worth trying another approach? |
As has been pointed out, anti-immigration views in the UK have hardly been denied a platform. It's nonsense to suggest that they have.
Edit - yes, the figures are overall. Be interested to see your evidence relating to the industries that have been hit hard and just what the impact has been in monetary terms. [Post edited 21 Jun 2018 19:52]
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:56 - Jun 21 with 2660 views | brazil1982 |
Unfortunately a good number of people cannot accept that a large number of populations in all nations are a bit right-wing | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:58 - Jun 21 with 2654 views | J2BLUE |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:51 - Jun 21 by Herbivore |
As has been pointed out, anti-immigration views in the UK have hardly been denied a platform. It's nonsense to suggest that they have.
Edit - yes, the figures are overall. Be interested to see your evidence relating to the industries that have been hit hard and just what the impact has been in monetary terms. [Post edited 21 Jun 2018 19:52]
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I'm not just talking about immigration. I'm talking about giving a real voice and real representation to the four million UKIP voters etc.
Anecdotal observation. Always seems to be the building trade. I think we can also throw in things like farming jobs. I don't have hard evidence but i'm sure I could find some if I looked hard enough. Even you can't deny there are plenty of stories of immigrants driving down the salaries of people in the building trade?
Again i'll ask, is there any merit to my ideas or are you satisfied with how the current approach is working? | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:01 - Jun 21 with 2649 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 16:00 - Jun 21 by J2BLUE |
Not sure you can put climate change deniers in with people who have legitimate concerns about things like immigration/globalism. People have had immigrants come in and undercut their wages or had their jobs moved abroad due to a cheaper workforce. Some concerns are legitimate and I just think we need to listen a bit more. Instead we have people calling them racist as soon as immigration is mentioned.
I hate posting like this. Feels like i'm arguing for their views. I'm not. I just think they deserve to be represented and things would be better in time if they did have a voice in parliament etc. |
This is the point. In many cases they're not legitimate concerns. The biggest anti-immigration support is coming from the least diverse areas where it's unlikely they've had dealings with an immigrant, let alone been adversely affected by one.
Don't confuse legitimate concerns with what people have been conditioned to fear. |  |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:08 - Jun 21 with 2632 views | brogansnose |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:45 - Jun 21 by Lord_Lucan |
Obviously foreign labour is effecting wages, no one can surely deny that - unless they are very mad.
The thing that makes me chuckle though is my mate Dave the Brickie who constantly moans that foreigners are undercutting him. I then point out that he did the same to the Germans when the wall came down. |
In construction, the main thing that is effecting wages atm is the lack of labour to actually do the jobs except at the unskilled end of the market. As a nation we have not invested on training people to do skilled jobs so we have to import workers. |  | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:12 - Jun 21 with 2627 views | bournemouthblue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:51 - Jun 21 by Herbivore |
As has been pointed out, anti-immigration views in the UK have hardly been denied a platform. It's nonsense to suggest that they have.
Edit - yes, the figures are overall. Be interested to see your evidence relating to the industries that have been hit hard and just what the impact has been in monetary terms. [Post edited 21 Jun 2018 19:52]
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There's a perception issue with immigration and it all boils down to lack of understanding
Of course there are real issues in the low skill sector if you feel you are losing out to people all competing for your job and of course there is a potential cultural impact if your local area changes quickly
However, I can't but help think that they are an easy target and distract away from areas where we should be looking at as real reasons for the problems now
How the Austerity agenda has got through relatively unchallenged from the media is beyond me. There's no doubt, things are starting to come apart at the seams now. It should start to be clear just how harmful the Austerity programme has been on us
Look at the increase in knife crime, violent crime, hate crime, things like Grenfell, Social Care, Ambulance issues, cuts to the Military, Education, infrastructure. The people will awake at some point. | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:17 - Jun 21 with 2615 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:12 - Jun 21 by bournemouthblue |
There's a perception issue with immigration and it all boils down to lack of understanding
Of course there are real issues in the low skill sector if you feel you are losing out to people all competing for your job and of course there is a potential cultural impact if your local area changes quickly
However, I can't but help think that they are an easy target and distract away from areas where we should be looking at as real reasons for the problems now
How the Austerity agenda has got through relatively unchallenged from the media is beyond me. There's no doubt, things are starting to come apart at the seams now. It should start to be clear just how harmful the Austerity programme has been on us
Look at the increase in knife crime, violent crime, hate crime, things like Grenfell, Social Care, Ambulance issues, cuts to the Military, Education, infrastructure. The people will awake at some point. |
Every time people start to wake up someone shouts 'yes but Corbyn' and they all go to sleep again. I think the Tories have had a free ride off the back of the myth that Labour bankrupt the country. Combined with Labour being in a state of turmoil themselves.
But yeah, it beggars belief why their policies aren't being challenged by the electorate even if Labour don't seem capable of doing it. | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:18 - Jun 21 with 2614 views | Herbivore |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:58 - Jun 21 by J2BLUE |
I'm not just talking about immigration. I'm talking about giving a real voice and real representation to the four million UKIP voters etc.
Anecdotal observation. Always seems to be the building trade. I think we can also throw in things like farming jobs. I don't have hard evidence but i'm sure I could find some if I looked hard enough. Even you can't deny there are plenty of stories of immigrants driving down the salaries of people in the building trade?
Again i'll ask, is there any merit to my ideas or are you satisfied with how the current approach is working? |
UKIP and their views received and continue to receive lots of press, the UK press has carried an awful lot of (often poorly evidenced) anti-immigration and anti-EU stories. I would say they've been well represented. Are you talking about actual electoral reform and having PR?
Anecdotal evidence isn't very accurate, but go with it if you like. This report from inside the construction industry suggests that it's a myth that migrant workers have flooded the labour market and driven down wages: MIGRATION AND CONSTRUCTION: The view from ... - CITB
PDF https://www.citb.co.uk › global › research
And therein lies one of the problems, actually anti-migrant rhetoric is rife in the press and in society generally and most of it is based on fabrications that people then believe. Those people then claim nobody is listening to them when what's actually happening is people aren't agreeing with them, based on actual evidence rather than gut feelings, what their mate Dave says or ill-informed press stories.
As for how your ideas compare to the status quo, I'm not clear what your ideas are so it's hard to say. If you want PR I'm up for that, if you think the press should carry more right-wing, anti-immigration rhetoric then I wholeheartedly disagree.
Edit - that link didn't post properly but you can Google it easily enough if you like. [Post edited 21 Jun 2018 20:21]
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:18 - Jun 21 with 2614 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:08 - Jun 21 by brogansnose |
In construction, the main thing that is effecting wages atm is the lack of labour to actually do the jobs except at the unskilled end of the market. As a nation we have not invested on training people to do skilled jobs so we have to import workers. |
I don’t give a monkeys chuff where they come from.
At home I struggle to get Sparkys and plumbers (although I did find a plumber recently through TWTD). At work in Nodge though I have a polish sparky and his brother is a plumber, they are quick, neat and very reliable. I would prefer to use a polish tradesman than a native one tbh.
My daughter is having an extension at the moment and she had the sparks in the other day. I went round to have a chat with him about some odd jobs I wanted doing and he couldn’t have been more dismissive. He was a right tale of woe, turns out he was under so much pressure he couldn’t fit me in. If he were a Pole he would probably have been prepared to work through the night. | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:20 - Jun 21 with 2611 views | brazil1982 |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:12 - Jun 21 by bournemouthblue |
There's a perception issue with immigration and it all boils down to lack of understanding
Of course there are real issues in the low skill sector if you feel you are losing out to people all competing for your job and of course there is a potential cultural impact if your local area changes quickly
However, I can't but help think that they are an easy target and distract away from areas where we should be looking at as real reasons for the problems now
How the Austerity agenda has got through relatively unchallenged from the media is beyond me. There's no doubt, things are starting to come apart at the seams now. It should start to be clear just how harmful the Austerity programme has been on us
Look at the increase in knife crime, violent crime, hate crime, things like Grenfell, Social Care, Ambulance issues, cuts to the Military, Education, infrastructure. The people will awake at some point. |
Austerity has nothing to do with the Grenfell disaster.
Controversial, but knife crime is the fault of the perpetrator - opening 100s of youth clubs would do nothing to stop t. | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:24 - Jun 21 with 2605 views | Herbivore |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:12 - Jun 21 by bournemouthblue |
There's a perception issue with immigration and it all boils down to lack of understanding
Of course there are real issues in the low skill sector if you feel you are losing out to people all competing for your job and of course there is a potential cultural impact if your local area changes quickly
However, I can't but help think that they are an easy target and distract away from areas where we should be looking at as real reasons for the problems now
How the Austerity agenda has got through relatively unchallenged from the media is beyond me. There's no doubt, things are starting to come apart at the seams now. It should start to be clear just how harmful the Austerity programme has been on us
Look at the increase in knife crime, violent crime, hate crime, things like Grenfell, Social Care, Ambulance issues, cuts to the Military, Education, infrastructure. The people will awake at some point. |
Austerity has benefited the wealthy, that's why most of the press haven't really opposed it. The press is there to benefit the wealthy people who own it, not to champion what is best for the people. | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 21:09 - Jun 21 with 2575 views | jaykay |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:29 - Jun 21 by Leaky |
I cannot agree with you that the impact immigration has had on wages is minimal. I have worked in the construction industry for 50 years. I recently worked for a builder who was openly boasting that he was hiring Syrian refugee's as labourer's for £50.00 pound a day cash in hand, as he would have to pay a British worker £100 pounds a day plus pay their tax.. I did point out that the Syrians couldn't do much as they didn't understand any of our instructions he would have got more productivity by employing local labour. |
well i worked in the construction industry from 1965 till 2015 and thats bull
1 in the 60s it was the irish who were tared as the cheap labour
2 in the 70s it was the indians classed as cheap labour
3 in the late 70s and 80s it was the british who were cheap labour in germany and saudi i went to the latter.
4 in the late 90s it was the poles
so you have picked the syrians as your scapegoat. agencies are the downfall of the worker not other workers. the likes of carrillion were to blame as well. win a big contract, sub the work out to firms who subbed it out again to firms who used agency labour. there is proper rates for each trade with overtime rates etc but these are got round by the use of agencies. the days of the lump (cash in hand) are outlawed so how your builder got round that i dont know. so i supose he could find a plumber to pay cash in hand and do away with you. you know all the polish plumbers who are taking all the work away. |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 07:57 - Jun 22 with 2483 views | Leaky |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:08 - Jun 21 by brogansnose |
In construction, the main thing that is effecting wages atm is the lack of labour to actually do the jobs except at the unskilled end of the market. As a nation we have not invested on training people to do skilled jobs so we have to import workers. |
I agree there is a shortage of skilled labour in the construction industry. In my experience it's cheaper to bring foreign workers already trained in there home country than train apprentice's here. Another point, one of my customers works for a large house builder in there head office. She mentioned that they had trouble recruiting brickies for their London sites. They tried recruiting worker's from the North East & Scotland but complained that they asked for Hotel accommodation. She then said we can bring foreign workers in who will sleep 5 to room. I asked her if, when her companies management had book an over night stay if they had to sleep 5 to a room. never received an answer to to my question | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:09 - Jun 22 with 2464 views | tcblue |
At the risk of being slightly elitist, if you've had all the advantages of growing up and being educated in this country, and your job truly can be taken by someone who doesn't speak the language, I'm not sure why blaming the immigration policy would be the first port of call. | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:18 - Jun 22 with 2468 views | Leaky |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:09 - Jun 22 by tcblue |
At the risk of being slightly elitist, if you've had all the advantages of growing up and being educated in this country, and your job truly can be taken by someone who doesn't speak the language, I'm not sure why blaming the immigration policy would be the first port of call. |
Quite agree, it would be good to have foreign Lawyer's & Accountants come in and under cut our greedy Lawyer's and Accountants don't think its likely to happen. | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:22 - Jun 22 with 2463 views | Herbivore |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:18 - Jun 22 by Leaky |
Quite agree, it would be good to have foreign Lawyer's & Accountants come in and under cut our greedy Lawyer's and Accountants don't think its likely to happen. |
Eh? There are migrants working in all industries. Even in construction it's a myth that they are only filling unskilled roles (have a look at the report I referenced in my post to J2). | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:26 - Jun 22 with 2456 views | StokieBlue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:17 - Jun 21 by Swansea_Blue |
Every time people start to wake up someone shouts 'yes but Corbyn' and they all go to sleep again. I think the Tories have had a free ride off the back of the myth that Labour bankrupt the country. Combined with Labour being in a state of turmoil themselves.
But yeah, it beggars belief why their policies aren't being challenged by the electorate even if Labour don't seem capable of doing it. |
Why is Labour bankrupting the country a myth? Whilst certainly not entirely their fault many of their policies directly relate to what happened in 2008 with the UK. They might not have started the ball rolling but the decisions made previously made it hard to stop.
As for the Tories, I agree entirely. They are getting a pretty much free ride on the back of Labour being pretty awful and unable to hold them to account and the public seemingly unwilling to take the time to understand and push back on decisions.
It's a miserable situation all round.
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:29 - Jun 22 with 2452 views | StokieBlue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:01 - Jun 21 by Swansea_Blue |
This is the point. In many cases they're not legitimate concerns. The biggest anti-immigration support is coming from the least diverse areas where it's unlikely they've had dealings with an immigrant, let alone been adversely affected by one.
Don't confuse legitimate concerns with what people have been conditioned to fear. |
It's easier to point the finger at the boogieman you don't know and don't have to confront than accept the possibility of ones own failings.
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