| The worlds going down a very dark road 11:32 - Jun 21 with 17860 views | hype313 |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:33 - Jun 22 with 2805 views | Herbivore |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:26 - Jun 22 by StokieBlue |
Why is Labour bankrupting the country a myth? Whilst certainly not entirely their fault many of their policies directly relate to what happened in 2008 with the UK. They might not have started the ball rolling but the decisions made previously made it hard to stop.
As for the Tories, I agree entirely. They are getting a pretty much free ride on the back of Labour being pretty awful and unable to hold them to account and the public seemingly unwilling to take the time to understand and push back on decisions.
It's a miserable situation all round.
SB |
The Tories have the weight of a press who, no matter how awful the Tories are, will back them to the hilt especially when the opposition is genuinely left of centre. I think the impact of that is greatly underestimated, a lot of people still believe the stuff they read in the paper and base their views on it. Many even think the press impartially reports news. |  |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:37 - Jun 22 with 2802 views | tractordownsouth |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:01 - Jun 21 by Swansea_Blue |
This is the point. In many cases they're not legitimate concerns. The biggest anti-immigration support is coming from the least diverse areas where it's unlikely they've had dealings with an immigrant, let alone been adversely affected by one.
Don't confuse legitimate concerns with what people have been conditioned to fear. |
That's true, whilst obviously people must be listened to, I think that the phrase " genuine concerns" has become a bit of a mantra. For example, I saw a tweet saying that people laughing at the #freetommy March were "laughing at working class people's genuine concerns." That is quite clearly not a ' genuine concern', it's just a way of moaning at the liberal elite and establishment or whatever words the far right and far left seem to have in common these days.
I'm all for a bit of income redistribution, and I don't think that makes me a loonie leftie for saying so, but I don't like the idea that trickle down economics of UKIP and the Tories is " helping the working class" as if foreign workers don't count as working families etc. The studies have shown that immigration has had a minimal impact on wages because immigrants create jobs as well as 'take' them. I don't like the language of ' elite' and ' establishment' but I do think that the redistribution should come from the top end rather than blaming the foreign workers who have come from poorer countries.
There was a good piece of analysis by James O'Brien about the Daily Mail claiming to stand up for the working classing and moaning about ' elites'. He used a metaphor that all the resources in the country were pieces of a pie, one piece owned by the working classes and the other by people like Paul Dacre and Rupert Murdoch. Then he said that their tactic is to get cross at the foreigners taking some of the working class slice whilst Murdoch and Dacre are increasing their share of the rest of the pie, so they fool some people into thinking that the Mail are on their side and that right wing economics is the way to go. Therefore everyone else must be a traitor who hates this country. Papers like this with their inflammatory headlines almost bully people into their opinions and don't give people time to think.
I don't like using the class system as I think it's counter productive and can often sound patronising, but I think it was the best way of explaining this and the income divide that is only made worse by a lot of these tabloids. |  |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:40 - Jun 22 with 2801 views | Leaky |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:22 - Jun 22 by Herbivore |
Eh? There are migrants working in all industries. Even in construction it's a myth that they are only filling unskilled roles (have a look at the report I referenced in my post to J2). |
I agree there migrants in all industries, its just that I find the skilled worker's coming are holding back youngster's here getting Apprenticeships as its a cost saving issue for British companies. I have no problem with controlled immigration its uncontrolled immigration I have an issue with. |  | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:40 - Jun 22 with 2797 views | StokieBlue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:33 - Jun 22 by Herbivore |
The Tories have the weight of a press who, no matter how awful the Tories are, will back them to the hilt especially when the opposition is genuinely left of centre. I think the impact of that is greatly underestimated, a lot of people still believe the stuff they read in the paper and base their views on it. Many even think the press impartially reports news. |
The press aren't impartial but they are clearly divided along certain lines. If you support Labour you likely read the Guardian and thus what is printed in the Mail doesn't affect your views.
I do agree the press are useless at actually portraying what is happening without spin or biased but I think the impact of the reporting would be less clear cut than possibly many people. People like echo chambers, people generally like to be agreed with. If some reads multiple sources then of course that adds more weight to your point.
Education would help, it's not really that hard to read multiple sources and draw your own conclusions based on those, it's a skill every child should learn going through school. Perhaps more teaching of history is needed, a great subject for drawing data from many sources and then creating an opinion supported by those many sources.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:44 - Jun 22 with 2791 views | Herbivore |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:40 - Jun 22 by StokieBlue |
The press aren't impartial but they are clearly divided along certain lines. If you support Labour you likely read the Guardian and thus what is printed in the Mail doesn't affect your views.
I do agree the press are useless at actually portraying what is happening without spin or biased but I think the impact of the reporting would be less clear cut than possibly many people. People like echo chambers, people generally like to be agreed with. If some reads multiple sources then of course that adds more weight to your point.
Education would help, it's not really that hard to read multiple sources and draw your own conclusions based on those, it's a skill every child should learn going through school. Perhaps more teaching of history is needed, a great subject for drawing data from many sources and then creating an opinion supported by those many sources.
SB |
We should teach philosophy and politics as part of the school curriculum. People need to learn the skill of analysing and constructing and deconstructing arguments. People need to learn to think. They also need to understand that the systems around them are man made and are not value free. But there are reasons why political parties would rather avoid a critical, politically aware electorate. | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:51 - Jun 22 with 2775 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:08 - Jun 21 by brogansnose |
In construction, the main thing that is effecting wages atm is the lack of labour to actually do the jobs except at the unskilled end of the market. As a nation we have not invested on training people to do skilled jobs so we have to import workers. |
Nail - head - hit. This is why globalisation works for big business and not people encouraging a race to the bottom rather than investment in (skilled) people. (Let's take our plane factories to China ! ) |  |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:53 - Jun 22 with 2773 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:45 - Jun 21 by Lord_Lucan |
Obviously foreign labour is effecting wages, no one can surely deny that - unless they are very mad.
The thing that makes me chuckle though is my mate Dave the Brickie who constantly moans that foreigners are undercutting him. I then point out that he did the same to the Germans when the wall came down. |
Was Dave being paid to rebuild it? | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 09:00 - Jun 22 with 2770 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:53 - Jun 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Was Dave being paid to rebuild it? |
Ha.
Like many Brits he went to Germany to earn a big wage and spent it all in the bars, I think he came back with less than he went over with.
He is basically Oz from Auf Weidesen (sp) Pet. |  |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 09:12 - Jun 22 with 2752 views | crunchie1978 |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:29 - Jun 21 by Leaky |
I cannot agree with you that the impact immigration has had on wages is minimal. I have worked in the construction industry for 50 years. I recently worked for a builder who was openly boasting that he was hiring Syrian refugee's as labourer's for £50.00 pound a day cash in hand, as he would have to pay a British worker £100 pounds a day plus pay their tax.. I did point out that the Syrians couldn't do much as they didn't understand any of our instructions he would have got more productivity by employing local labour. |
I agree that it has had an influx on wages in the construction Industry.
Haven't seen any syrain refugees on site yet....but come across lots of eastern Europeans and Indian Labour on site.
Being as these individuals work through an agency it's easier for employers to employ them as they work through a sub contract basis.....making it easier to "get rid" if the work drys up.
Plus there's also the "Brown envelopes" being dished around that encourages bosses to use these agency's. |  | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 09:20 - Jun 22 with 2743 views | crunchie1978 |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 20:08 - Jun 21 by brogansnose |
In construction, the main thing that is effecting wages atm is the lack of labour to actually do the jobs except at the unskilled end of the market. As a nation we have not invested on training people to do skilled jobs so we have to import workers. |
Correct i can see this with the amount of youngsters coming into the game....there isn't any.
And why would they....as you state they don't get trained up and paid a low wage for a hard job.
It's easier for employers to employ labour from abroad.
But I'm not moaning about these blokes they are hard working lads....and we do need them....just would like to see more effort made in producing skilled labour from our own shores.
Because once these boys have earnt their money....they got back home. | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 09:35 - Jun 22 with 2727 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:37 - Jun 22 by tractordownsouth |
That's true, whilst obviously people must be listened to, I think that the phrase " genuine concerns" has become a bit of a mantra. For example, I saw a tweet saying that people laughing at the #freetommy March were "laughing at working class people's genuine concerns." That is quite clearly not a ' genuine concern', it's just a way of moaning at the liberal elite and establishment or whatever words the far right and far left seem to have in common these days.
I'm all for a bit of income redistribution, and I don't think that makes me a loonie leftie for saying so, but I don't like the idea that trickle down economics of UKIP and the Tories is " helping the working class" as if foreign workers don't count as working families etc. The studies have shown that immigration has had a minimal impact on wages because immigrants create jobs as well as 'take' them. I don't like the language of ' elite' and ' establishment' but I do think that the redistribution should come from the top end rather than blaming the foreign workers who have come from poorer countries.
There was a good piece of analysis by James O'Brien about the Daily Mail claiming to stand up for the working classing and moaning about ' elites'. He used a metaphor that all the resources in the country were pieces of a pie, one piece owned by the working classes and the other by people like Paul Dacre and Rupert Murdoch. Then he said that their tactic is to get cross at the foreigners taking some of the working class slice whilst Murdoch and Dacre are increasing their share of the rest of the pie, so they fool some people into thinking that the Mail are on their side and that right wing economics is the way to go. Therefore everyone else must be a traitor who hates this country. Papers like this with their inflammatory headlines almost bully people into their opinions and don't give people time to think.
I don't like using the class system as I think it's counter productive and can often sound patronising, but I think it was the best way of explaining this and the income divide that is only made worse by a lot of these tabloids. |
The immigrant card is "divide and rule" at its finest. | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 10:17 - Jun 22 with 2707 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:26 - Jun 22 by StokieBlue |
Why is Labour bankrupting the country a myth? Whilst certainly not entirely their fault many of their policies directly relate to what happened in 2008 with the UK. They might not have started the ball rolling but the decisions made previously made it hard to stop.
As for the Tories, I agree entirely. They are getting a pretty much free ride on the back of Labour being pretty awful and unable to hold them to account and the public seemingly unwilling to take the time to understand and push back on decisions.
It's a miserable situation all round.
SB |
From what I've read there's spin based on half truths. Yes they made mistakes, e.g. by being too optimistic with forecasts which meant debt was slightly higher than it could have been when the recession bit. But those were dwarfed by the shock of that recession and it would of only had minimal impact.
I understand that New Labour policies were largely seen as progressive and best practice at the time. So there seems to be a hindsight element to this, and re-writing of history for political gain by the Tories. Notable too that Labour was criticised for not regulating the banks more, yet in 2007 the Conservatives were making the case for less regulation of the banks, not more.
I'll pull out an example of one person who's been quite vocal in this, but he's far from alone. Many academic economists seem to hold similar views.
I found this paper really interesting:
S. Wren Lewis. 2013. Aggregate fiscal policy under the Labour government, 1997—2010. Oxford Review of Economic Policy 29(1):25-46
Most people won't be able to see it sadly as unfortunately it's behind a paywall, but he's got a Blog with a few posts loosely based around what he discusses in the paper (although nowhere near as comprehensive and persuasive). e.g. https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2012/08/facts-and-spin-about-fiscal-policy.html ; https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2013/06/fiscal-legacies-and-competence.html and https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2013/06/more-on-myth-of-labour-profligacy.html
(His own website is here btw https://sites.google.com/site/sjqwrenlewis/ - there's an interesting comment paper at the top on the general state of media reporting of fiscal matters wrt austerity, Brexit, etc.).
(He's also critical of the implementation of austerity at a time of rock bottom interest rates - http://www.coalitioneconomics.org/uncategorized/aggregate-fiscal-policy-under-th But those are asides).
I'm certainly no economist and tbh struggle to follow much of the arguments, but this guy seems reasonably balanced in the way he's assessing the policies under the different administrations. He gives credit and criticisms in equal measure irrespective of the colour of government. And he makes a very compelling argument that Brown made mistakes but they're not responsible for all the economic problems that followed (i.e. bankrupting the country). [Post edited 22 Jun 2018 13:26]
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 11:39 - Jun 22 with 2653 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 08:26 - Jun 22 by StokieBlue |
Why is Labour bankrupting the country a myth? Whilst certainly not entirely their fault many of their policies directly relate to what happened in 2008 with the UK. They might not have started the ball rolling but the decisions made previously made it hard to stop.
As for the Tories, I agree entirely. They are getting a pretty much free ride on the back of Labour being pretty awful and unable to hold them to account and the public seemingly unwilling to take the time to understand and push back on decisions.
It's a miserable situation all round.
SB |
I’m going to borrow your old chestnut that if the IFS are going to be put up by left leaning posters as gospel then they have to accept IFS reports that don’t suit their view.
So from the IFS, "The UK had one of the largest structural budget deficits among either the G7 or the OECD countries and a higher level of public sector debt than most other OECD countries. Most OECD governments did more to reduce their structural deficit during the period from 1997 to 2007 than Labour did. This fiscal position formed the backdrop to the financial crisis."
So the "good times" were funded by running up a deficit in times of high tax receipts. [Post edited 22 Jun 2018 13:19]
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 11:57 - Jun 22 with 2640 views | Bluesquid |
What about certain Middle Eastern countries stepping up to the mark and taking their fair share of refugees?
How many refugees did Israel, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE take in? | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 13:00 - Jun 22 with 2611 views | Seablu |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 17:43 - Jun 21 by Herbivore |
And with a single arrow Benters aptly demonstrates my point. |
A downarrow from benters is always a good thing.
An excellent barometer for willful stupidity & spiteful ignorance in its simplest form. |  | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 13:18 - Jun 22 with 2593 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 11:57 - Jun 22 by Bluesquid |
What about certain Middle Eastern countries stepping up to the mark and taking their fair share of refugees?
How many refugees did Israel, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE take in? |
Pretty much pointless whatabouterry there squidders considering these are migrants who have made their way to Europe.
However, Isarael won't take in refugees from middle eastern countries for understandable security reasons. There are, however, a large number of gay Palestinian men and women seek refuge in Isarael to escape death.
As for Saudi? They have taken in some 2.5 million Syrians since the beginning of the conflict. To quote the following article:
"Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and the UAE are not parties to any of the UN protocols on refugees, and so through this technicality, they, along with most of their refugees, are excluded from many refugee counting mechanisms".
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/anhvinh-doanvo/europes-crisis-refugees_b_8175924. | |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 13:47 - Jun 22 with 2562 views | StokieBlue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 13:30 - Jun 22 by Swansea_Blue |
That's countered in one of the links I posted above -
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2012/08/facts-and-spin-about-fiscal-policy.html
"What this chart does not show are the actions of a spendthrift Chancellor who left the economy in a dire state just before the Great Recession. He stopped being Chancellor with debt roughly where it was when he started, and a deficit only moderately above the level required to keep it there. The spin that our current woes are the result of the awful mess Gordon Brown left the UK economy in is a distortion based on a half-truth. The half truth is that it would have been better if fiscal policy had been tighter, leaving debt at 30% rather than 37% when the recession hit. The distortion is that the high deficit and debt when labour left office in 2010 were a consequence of the recession, and commendable attempts to limit its impact on output and employment." |
The thing is, the reasons that the 2008 financial crisis was as bad as it was go deeper than the debt of the country.
Labour undertook deregulation of the financial sector as well as a "lightly-lightly" approach to lending rules (quoted directly from the head of the FSA at the time).
For instance Labour encouraged the banks to lend at ever smaller LTV in order to fuel a cash-cow of stamp duty income. At the same time they were doing this they decreased the level of tier 1 capital (a ratio of core capital vs risky assets (at a simplistic level)) so that when people started defaulting on their debt the banks not only had to absorb the hit due to low LTV but also didn't have the reserves to plug the holes that they would have had (and do now) when a higher tier 1 ratio was required.
None of that is directly related to the UK's sovereign debt but are massive drivers for what happened within the UK. This subsequently lead to the increase in debt in order to deal with the fallout.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 13:52 - Jun 22 with 2553 views | No9 |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 14:55 - Jun 21 by SpruceMoose |
Give them a platform? They have endless tabloids echoing their viewpoint every day. No end of websites popping up that align with their worldview.
If there's a viewpoint which is sidelined from British political discourse then it's not the right wing's. I don't understand the claim that these people don't have a platform at all. They have one. They just don't like people disagreeing with them. [Post edited 21 Jun 2018 14:57]
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During the run up to the referendum few involved got as much air time as Mr Farage. | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 14:00 - Jun 22 with 2542 views | No9 |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 13:47 - Jun 22 by StokieBlue |
The thing is, the reasons that the 2008 financial crisis was as bad as it was go deeper than the debt of the country.
Labour undertook deregulation of the financial sector as well as a "lightly-lightly" approach to lending rules (quoted directly from the head of the FSA at the time).
For instance Labour encouraged the banks to lend at ever smaller LTV in order to fuel a cash-cow of stamp duty income. At the same time they were doing this they decreased the level of tier 1 capital (a ratio of core capital vs risky assets (at a simplistic level)) so that when people started defaulting on their debt the banks not only had to absorb the hit due to low LTV but also didn't have the reserves to plug the holes that they would have had (and do now) when a higher tier 1 ratio was required.
None of that is directly related to the UK's sovereign debt but are massive drivers for what happened within the UK. This subsequently lead to the increase in debt in order to deal with the fallout.
SB |
However, in the run up to the bang George Osborne said labours regulation of the banks was too tight & when Mr darling warned the commons of the approaching storm, Mr Osborne accused him of talking down the economy.
The banks (or at least soem of them knew they were going tits up) but never, until the last moment told the CoE just how serious it was.
& as it started on Wall St, how many commentators said it wouldn't cross the pond? | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 14:06 - Jun 22 with 2539 views | StokieBlue |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 14:00 - Jun 22 by No9 |
However, in the run up to the bang George Osborne said labours regulation of the banks was too tight & when Mr darling warned the commons of the approaching storm, Mr Osborne accused him of talking down the economy.
The banks (or at least soem of them knew they were going tits up) but never, until the last moment told the CoE just how serious it was.
& as it started on Wall St, how many commentators said it wouldn't cross the pond? |
It's far more complicated than you are making out. For instance, do you know what a Monoline is? Probably hardly anyone does but they played a massive part in what happened at the start of the crisis.
I don't think the Church really wanted to get involved to be honest :).
I agree though that both sides weren't talking about tightening the regulations, however it was still Labour who weakened them over the previous decade, especially in the aspects I highlighted thus it's wrong to absolve them of blame as it seems some people wish to do.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 15:07 - Jun 22 with 2518 views | No9 |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 14:06 - Jun 22 by StokieBlue |
It's far more complicated than you are making out. For instance, do you know what a Monoline is? Probably hardly anyone does but they played a massive part in what happened at the start of the crisis.
I don't think the Church really wanted to get involved to be honest :).
I agree though that both sides weren't talking about tightening the regulations, however it was still Labour who weakened them over the previous decade, especially in the aspects I highlighted thus it's wrong to absolve them of blame as it seems some people wish to do.
SB |
This-
A monoline insurance company is an insurance company that provides guarantees to issuers, often in the form of credit wraps, that enhance the credit of the issuer. These insurance companies first began providing wraps for municipal bond issues, but now provide credit enhancement for other types of bonds, such as mortgage-backed securities and collateralized debt obligations.
Isn't this part of the overall issue still not dealt with? may commentators are making it clear this still goes on & governments (UK in particular) are still allowing debt to spiral out of control.Even Mr Hammond has admited the UK is not is as good a place as it was in 2008 to withstand another crisis.
It all started on 27 October 1986.
Can you imagine the outcry from the rw media had Messrs Blair & Brown tried to put the genie back in the bottle?
& as the tories bowed to the financial companies and failed to put a tough cookie in charge of the FSA & did nothign about the FOS, i suggest to you that things may even be worse now - for the public that is. Corporate welfare is protecting those who create the problems in the first place | | | |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 15:08 - Jun 22 with 2518 views | SpruceMoose |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 13:00 - Jun 22 by Seablu |
A downarrow from benters is always a good thing.
An excellent barometer for willful stupidity & spiteful ignorance in its simplest form. |
He won't like it up him buh! |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| The worlds going down a very dark road on 17:22 - Jun 22 with 2474 views | Benters2 |
| The worlds going down a very dark road on 19:45 - Jun 21 by Lord_Lucan |
Obviously foreign labour is effecting wages, no one can surely deny that - unless they are very mad.
The thing that makes me chuckle though is my mate Dave the Brickie who constantly moans that foreigners are undercutting him. I then point out that he did the same to the Germans when the wall came down. |
The Germans hate laying bricks,in the day it was the Brits,Dutch and the Russians working in Germany on the building sites. | | | |
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