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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. 11:18 - Aug 15 with 2369 viewsGuthrum

There really wasn't a lot of choice.

Firstly, having the owner suddenly splash many millions in transfer fees was not an option. He said specifically he wouldn't. Whatever his notional wealth (which is mostly the value of his company), I doubt Evans actually has a lot more in the way of spare funds to put in. He did stump up for Bialkowski's new contract. Also, I don't think an FFP transfer embargo would really help matters.

Top quality Championship players are pretty unaffordable nowadays anyway, frequently going for eight-figure sums.

So in order to spend, we have to sell. Who were the most marketable members of our squad? Waghorn and Bialkowski. You want to hang on to the 'keeper, because 1) he has been critical to our defence for several seasons; and 2) they don't command such high fees as strikers. Waghorn was also attracting serious interest from a number of clubs willing to make pretty unrefuseable offers. So he's going anyway.

Webster similarly. A very generous bid came in for a player who had missed a lot of time due to injury anyway. The offer for Garner was pretty unrefuseable, too, plus he wanted to move. McGoldrick only wanted to stay for a good contract which, given he's injured for about half of every season, isn't worth it to the club. Bru was always on the way out, Smith wanted to go to America to reboot his career. The loans obviously went back to their parent clubs. This left us with a major rebuilding job whether we wanted it or not.

So to replacements. Keeping Waghorn in the teeth of Derby and Boro would have left us in the familiar position of rooting around for freebies and loans. One or two of them might have been very successful, but remember we no longer had a manager with extensive contacts in the Championship to possibly swing those uregarded gems. They would have had plenty of second-tier experience, sure, but may not have been very good or patricularly fit.

Plus our own Youths, whom everybody thinks are marvellous with the rosy-tinted spectacles of a new parent. But might not be all that hot really, especially over a long and gruelling season in the Championship. Remember, they all broke down pretty quickly last time. And they're still all in their late teens or only just into their twenties.

The alternative is to buy some of the best young prospects in the lower divisions of the League, players who have done well in teams pushing for promotion. We have a manager who knows these lads well, having played for or against him in recent seasons. This takes money, so Waghorn and Webster have to go. But it gives the chance of an injection of fresh energy and talent. It also means in a lot of areas having to get up to speed for the new level. Some of those players may not make the grade. But at least it is taking a positive approach, rather than struggling on with the same old same old.

To summarise: We were left with a pretty extensive rebuilding job whether we wanted it or not. The choice was then between trying to keep one good player and filling up on freebies and loans, or losing that man and buying young talent from lower down. We went for the latter.

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Great post Guthers on 11:22 - Aug 15 with 2012 viewsDyland

"This left us with a major rebuilding job whether we wanted it or not."

Exactly. But the truth won't get in the way of an angry entitled football fan.

"But at least it is taking a positive approach, rather than struggling on with the same old same old.

Badabing.

Basically, cheer up you bunch of melting minnies.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 11:25 - Aug 15 with 1984 viewsWarkTheWarkITFC

Excellent post Guthrum.

A very fair assessment of the position we have found ourselves in, the potential solutions and why Hurst has chosen the option most likely to bear fruit in the long term, perhaps the least likely however in the short term.

A time for patience. I cannot wait to get down to the pub on Saturday lunchtime, have a few drinks and shout myself hoarse from 3pm onwards.

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Great post Guthers on 11:27 - Aug 15 with 1976 viewsbadadski

Great post Guthers on 11:22 - Aug 15 by Dyland

"This left us with a major rebuilding job whether we wanted it or not."

Exactly. But the truth won't get in the way of an angry entitled football fan.

"But at least it is taking a positive approach, rather than struggling on with the same old same old.

Badabing.

Basically, cheer up you bunch of melting minnies.


We have changed a lot from even our pre season friendlies where we looked good. In fact we looked great against West Ham. With the Midfield of our youngsters and Wolfy in Defence i thought we played amazing.

He has taken out the youngsters that may not be good apart but together i am guessing from playing together for England under 19's they seemed excellent. So maybe thats whats needed. Individually they are not favoured with other players but together look very good, add Edun to them and we have the entire Midfield of England under 19's with Gwion on the right? maybe not a bad idea
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Great post Guthers on 11:42 - Aug 15 with 1933 viewsSWGF

Great post Guthers on 11:27 - Aug 15 by badadski

We have changed a lot from even our pre season friendlies where we looked good. In fact we looked great against West Ham. With the Midfield of our youngsters and Wolfy in Defence i thought we played amazing.

He has taken out the youngsters that may not be good apart but together i am guessing from playing together for England under 19's they seemed excellent. So maybe thats whats needed. Individually they are not favoured with other players but together look very good, add Edun to them and we have the entire Midfield of England under 19's with Gwion on the right? maybe not a bad idea


Looking "good" in pre-season friendlies is stretching it a bit. West Ham were 60% fit when we played them.

The other pre-season matches (and I went to two others) were not great. They got increasingly better as they went on, but they weren't "good".

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 11:48 - Aug 15 with 1913 viewsITFCBlues

You’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head right here.

I had a similar discussion with portmanking last night. His argument that it’s OK to bring in 3-4 L1 players that could’ve been done with the Webster money. But we HAD to keep hold of Waghorn at all costs, despite him being offered a substantial increase in wages at Derby (We’d have to match that of course to keep him here). Then we’d be left fishing around for free transfers for Championship experience. Apparently, there was a lot of quality frees around this summer — he’s yet to tell me who they are. Any free of any decent quality in the Championship would also command fairly hefty wages — we’re not in a position to pay high wages.

Ultimately, we had next to no other option other than go down the route we have. Yes it may not breed instant results. But we’re THREE games into a season which ultimately will be one of transition. Admittedly there are 1 or 2 things that I’m slightly concerned about — but the overall approach to recruitment certainly isn’t one of them!

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Great post Guthers on 11:50 - Aug 15 with 1902 viewsGuthrum

Great post Guthers on 11:27 - Aug 15 by badadski

We have changed a lot from even our pre season friendlies where we looked good. In fact we looked great against West Ham. With the Midfield of our youngsters and Wolfy in Defence i thought we played amazing.

He has taken out the youngsters that may not be good apart but together i am guessing from playing together for England under 19's they seemed excellent. So maybe thats whats needed. Individually they are not favoured with other players but together look very good, add Edun to them and we have the entire Midfield of England under 19's with Gwion on the right? maybe not a bad idea


Bear in mind our Youths, Chalobah and Edun have not played together all that often (certainly recently, at least). Nydam and Downes have only been included in the U19s for a couple of friendlies (for which neither Edun nor Chalobah were in the squad). Neither they nor Dozzell went to Finland in July.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 11:53 - Aug 15 with 1890 viewsTractorWood

Agree. In my opinion I just don't think the squad is good enough. No experienced (at this level) or proven quality in creative or goal scoring positions.

I know that was then, but it could be again..
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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:05 - Aug 15 with 1850 viewschristiand

Disagree with some aspects here. With what was left by MM that squad was a mid table championship side that played agricultural football. Yes, some element of change was needed, but the amount for ‘unproven’ players at this level was far too extreme in such a short space of time. The youngsters in Dozzell, Nydam and Downes are all highly thought by Klug, who we can all agree on as a well respected coach in youth football, they have represented their country they aren’t a crop of bog standard academy players. They should be involved, their energy and enthusiasm alone would be a huge benefit to our side. I do appreciate it is early days, but results last night with ‘predominantly’ your first team, is worrying and much more work is still needed on the training ground to turn this around before things seriously unravel.
[Post edited 15 Aug 2018 12:09]

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:16 - Aug 15 with 1795 viewsDyland

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:05 - Aug 15 by christiand

Disagree with some aspects here. With what was left by MM that squad was a mid table championship side that played agricultural football. Yes, some element of change was needed, but the amount for ‘unproven’ players at this level was far too extreme in such a short space of time. The youngsters in Dozzell, Nydam and Downes are all highly thought by Klug, who we can all agree on as a well respected coach in youth football, they have represented their country they aren’t a crop of bog standard academy players. They should be involved, their energy and enthusiasm alone would be a huge benefit to our side. I do appreciate it is early days, but results last night with ‘predominantly’ your first team, is worrying and much more work is still needed on the training ground to turn this around before things seriously unravel.
[Post edited 15 Aug 2018 12:09]


"They should be involved, their energy and enthusiasm alone would be a huge benefit to our side. "

Pure hyperbole. Though I agree they have a part to play this season.

Reminds me it's just a debating platform innit :)

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:24 - Aug 15 with 1756 viewschristiand

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:16 - Aug 15 by Dyland

"They should be involved, their energy and enthusiasm alone would be a huge benefit to our side. "

Pure hyperbole. Though I agree they have a part to play this season.

Reminds me it's just a debating platform innit :)


It’s not hyperbole though, it’s logical. All three of them would do anything for the team just to be involved in the first team squad rather than the U23s. So any opportunity, they would grab gratefully. Their talent and ability is then an added bonus!
[Post edited 15 Aug 2018 12:26]

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:41 - Aug 15 with 1700 viewsbraveblue

So many excuses for Evans. Are you in his PR team? How do you know how much of his wealth is liquid?

He has made about £5m profit in the past couple of months, left us short of experience, sold a striker without a replacement yet again, cut the wages bill and will no doubt talk about some idiotic long term plan.

Hurst has been put in a difficult position and needs time to try to work it out. Any issues with results lie squarely with Evans.
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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:49 - Aug 15 with 1654 viewsITFCBlues

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:41 - Aug 15 by braveblue

So many excuses for Evans. Are you in his PR team? How do you know how much of his wealth is liquid?

He has made about £5m profit in the past couple of months, left us short of experience, sold a striker without a replacement yet again, cut the wages bill and will no doubt talk about some idiotic long term plan.

Hurst has been put in a difficult position and needs time to try to work it out. Any issues with results lie squarely with Evans.


How have we made 5m profit exactly?

Webster 2.8m
Waghorn 5m
Garner 1.25m

Circa 9m?

Harrison 750k
Jackson 1.6m
Nolan / Nsiala 2m
Donacien 750k
Edwards 750k

Loan Fee’s for Chalobah/Edun

It's around 5.8m without even considering the loan fee's which could easily amount to 500k + which would leave a profit of around 2.7m MAX? Of which we're still trying to bring players in...

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"He has made about £5m profit in the past couple of months" on 12:52 - Aug 15 with 1644 viewsDyland

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:41 - Aug 15 by braveblue

So many excuses for Evans. Are you in his PR team? How do you know how much of his wealth is liquid?

He has made about £5m profit in the past couple of months, left us short of experience, sold a striker without a replacement yet again, cut the wages bill and will no doubt talk about some idiotic long term plan.

Hurst has been put in a difficult position and needs time to try to work it out. Any issues with results lie squarely with Evans.



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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 13:02 - Aug 15 with 1602 viewsGlasgowBlue

The voice of sanity.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 13:12 - Aug 15 with 1569 viewsGuthrum

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:05 - Aug 15 by christiand

Disagree with some aspects here. With what was left by MM that squad was a mid table championship side that played agricultural football. Yes, some element of change was needed, but the amount for ‘unproven’ players at this level was far too extreme in such a short space of time. The youngsters in Dozzell, Nydam and Downes are all highly thought by Klug, who we can all agree on as a well respected coach in youth football, they have represented their country they aren’t a crop of bog standard academy players. They should be involved, their energy and enthusiasm alone would be a huge benefit to our side. I do appreciate it is early days, but results last night with ‘predominantly’ your first team, is worrying and much more work is still needed on the training ground to turn this around before things seriously unravel.
[Post edited 15 Aug 2018 12:09]


Of the 20 players who made 10 or more appearances for Ipswich last season, just ten were certain to remain here at the start of this. That includes Kenlock, Nydam, Downes and Sears.

I doubt we would have kept Waghorn in any case, with the size of offers on the table. Likewise Webster, who had been injured a lot, too. Garner wanted a move and the price was right, McGoldrick didn't want to sign a new contract. Hyam had simply not done enough to be offered a new one. Celina, Connolly, Iorfa, Carter-Vickers and Gleeson were all loans.

We only had half a squad left over from when McCarthy was here.

The players we've bought are not 'unproven', unless you discount any experience below Championship level. Doing that would bar any player from climbing up the divisions. Several have played in teams challenging for - even winning - promotions. They're all in their early-to-mid 20s.

Contrast that with Dozzell, Downes and Nydam who had only 47 senior League appearances between them at the start of the season (10 of those in League Two, in Downes' case) and none of whom is older than 19 years of age. They may be stars of the future, but are still at a very early stage in their careers.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 13:16 - Aug 15 with 1565 viewsGuthrum

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 12:41 - Aug 15 by braveblue

So many excuses for Evans. Are you in his PR team? How do you know how much of his wealth is liquid?

He has made about £5m profit in the past couple of months, left us short of experience, sold a striker without a replacement yet again, cut the wages bill and will no doubt talk about some idiotic long term plan.

Hurst has been put in a difficult position and needs time to try to work it out. Any issues with results lie squarely with Evans.


Because I spent six years doing a job which partly involved looking at very wealthy people and assessing how much money they might be prepared to give away (to charity, in that case - but throwing dosh away on running a football club is not dissimilar).

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 13:52 - Aug 15 with 1523 viewschristiand

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 13:12 - Aug 15 by Guthrum

Of the 20 players who made 10 or more appearances for Ipswich last season, just ten were certain to remain here at the start of this. That includes Kenlock, Nydam, Downes and Sears.

I doubt we would have kept Waghorn in any case, with the size of offers on the table. Likewise Webster, who had been injured a lot, too. Garner wanted a move and the price was right, McGoldrick didn't want to sign a new contract. Hyam had simply not done enough to be offered a new one. Celina, Connolly, Iorfa, Carter-Vickers and Gleeson were all loans.

We only had half a squad left over from when McCarthy was here.

The players we've bought are not 'unproven', unless you discount any experience below Championship level. Doing that would bar any player from climbing up the divisions. Several have played in teams challenging for - even winning - promotions. They're all in their early-to-mid 20s.

Contrast that with Dozzell, Downes and Nydam who had only 47 senior League appearances between them at the start of the season (10 of those in League Two, in Downes' case) and none of whom is older than 19 years of age. They may be stars of the future, but are still at a very early stage in their careers.


Unproven at Championship level and that is a gamble which can’t be denied. No doubt some will come through as shining lights as proven by other lower league signings in the past, but unfortunately not all of them. We still need that Championship experience in key areas, which we are lacking now. Up front is a concern, we really lack a cutting edge and the midfield appear no closer to linking up with Harrison or Jackson even after signing Nolan. We simply aren’t good enough defensively to stop sides from scoring against us, so we need to have some element of threat offensively. I’m not PH and don’t see the players everyday in training, but I would’ve put more faith in some of our youngsters instead of a couple of additions he has made.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:06 - Aug 15 with 1496 viewsGuthrum

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 13:52 - Aug 15 by christiand

Unproven at Championship level and that is a gamble which can’t be denied. No doubt some will come through as shining lights as proven by other lower league signings in the past, but unfortunately not all of them. We still need that Championship experience in key areas, which we are lacking now. Up front is a concern, we really lack a cutting edge and the midfield appear no closer to linking up with Harrison or Jackson even after signing Nolan. We simply aren’t good enough defensively to stop sides from scoring against us, so we need to have some element of threat offensively. I’m not PH and don’t see the players everyday in training, but I would’ve put more faith in some of our youngsters instead of a couple of additions he has made.


You can't say our own youngsters are particularly well proven at Champ level, either, with just a handful of games each (in only some of which have they been outstanding).

There's no way we can currently afford known Championship quality. It's simply too expensive. So we're left with gambling on out-of-form/fragile/unrated second-tier punts instead of players who are at least doing well at the level where they were playing.

It's always going to be difficult to hang onto the good players we already possess. The club does need money to run, especially if we want to recruit. This in an environment where some clubs (especially those with parachute money) are able to make hugely inflated bids and entice players with stratospheric wages.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:13 - Aug 15 with 1469 viewsNo9

Any incoming Team Management will always see the resident stock in trade in a differnt light to the departing Team Management.
It was obvious to most of us sitting in the stands that some of the players weren't fit & others weren't going to expend much energy by running about.
The new TM will have to work at this for a while before things gel.
& weren't there a lot calling for trawling the lower leagues for talent??
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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:20 - Aug 15 with 1450 viewschristiand

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:06 - Aug 15 by Guthrum

You can't say our own youngsters are particularly well proven at Champ level, either, with just a handful of games each (in only some of which have they been outstanding).

There's no way we can currently afford known Championship quality. It's simply too expensive. So we're left with gambling on out-of-form/fragile/unrated second-tier punts instead of players who are at least doing well at the level where they were playing.

It's always going to be difficult to hang onto the good players we already possess. The club does need money to run, especially if we want to recruit. This in an environment where some clubs (especially those with parachute money) are able to make hugely inflated bids and entice players with stratospheric wages.


Well we could, but not real top end. Also, I don’t see the difference between 47 first team Championship appearances between Nydam, Dozzell and Downes with some players from League 1 and 2 that have been signed having none? Bottom line is, if they are good enough then they are old enough and the case in those three, they are good enough but need the opportunity. Look from your OP Guthrum you make some very good points, which I agree with. I just believe, and it’s only my opinion, there’s been too much change with unproven talent and our young players written off too soon.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:22 - Aug 15 with 1446 viewsCoastalblue

Good post, which I agree with, but I fear much of your response will be no more than back of the fag packet maths trying to prove how Evans has once more made a killing out of the Club this summer.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:26 - Aug 15 with 1433 viewschristiand

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:22 - Aug 15 by Coastalblue

Good post, which I agree with, but I fear much of your response will be no more than back of the fag packet maths trying to prove how Evans has once more made a killing out of the Club this summer.


And ME will argue this is driven by his 5 point plan for the club, so he can hide behind that.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:29 - Aug 15 with 1419 viewsWarkTheWarkITFC

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:20 - Aug 15 by christiand

Well we could, but not real top end. Also, I don’t see the difference between 47 first team Championship appearances between Nydam, Dozzell and Downes with some players from League 1 and 2 that have been signed having none? Bottom line is, if they are good enough then they are old enough and the case in those three, they are good enough but need the opportunity. Look from your OP Guthrum you make some very good points, which I agree with. I just believe, and it’s only my opinion, there’s been too much change with unproven talent and our young players written off too soon.


I suspect the loan destinations of the likes of Nydam and Downes, perhaps even Kenlock will put to bed quite quickly any suggestions that they are ready to be considered regular Championship players.

Downes went on loan to a League Two club, started okay, lost his place due to England duty and did not regain it again. Would you not expect a player capable to playing regularly in the Championship to be able to get back into that side?

Woolfenden, who looked very good against Blackburn, was only on loan in the Conference last season. If he too is ready for regular Championship football, surely League One clubs at the very least would have been desperate to land him, let alone League Two clubs.

Emmanuel was on loan at a good League One club, but they've made no attempt to sign him permanently or loan him again as far as we are aware, so why would he be good enough for a club with much higher aspirations that Rotherham.

If our players really are good enough to play a major part in our Championship season and we are prepared to let them out on loan then surely clubs in the bottom part of the Championship would want them as squad players or top League One clubs would want them as first team regulars.

I'm willing to bet that if Nydam or Downes goes out on loan, neither of them will start 50% of games for a club in the Top 6 of League One or above. There is no doubt they can make an impact and look good on occasion for us, but so did Dean McDonald. Even Josh Yowerth looked alright against Rooney.

Any player can raise their game for a bit. The question is whether they can perform well over the course of a season. Only Dozzell strikes me as having the quality out of all our youngsters to do that right now.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:38 - Aug 15 with 1405 viewschristiand

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:29 - Aug 15 by WarkTheWarkITFC

I suspect the loan destinations of the likes of Nydam and Downes, perhaps even Kenlock will put to bed quite quickly any suggestions that they are ready to be considered regular Championship players.

Downes went on loan to a League Two club, started okay, lost his place due to England duty and did not regain it again. Would you not expect a player capable to playing regularly in the Championship to be able to get back into that side?

Woolfenden, who looked very good against Blackburn, was only on loan in the Conference last season. If he too is ready for regular Championship football, surely League One clubs at the very least would have been desperate to land him, let alone League Two clubs.

Emmanuel was on loan at a good League One club, but they've made no attempt to sign him permanently or loan him again as far as we are aware, so why would he be good enough for a club with much higher aspirations that Rotherham.

If our players really are good enough to play a major part in our Championship season and we are prepared to let them out on loan then surely clubs in the bottom part of the Championship would want them as squad players or top League One clubs would want them as first team regulars.

I'm willing to bet that if Nydam or Downes goes out on loan, neither of them will start 50% of games for a club in the Top 6 of League One or above. There is no doubt they can make an impact and look good on occasion for us, but so did Dean McDonald. Even Josh Yowerth looked alright against Rooney.

Any player can raise their game for a bit. The question is whether they can perform well over the course of a season. Only Dozzell strikes me as having the quality out of all our youngsters to do that right now.


Nydam could as well. Wolfenden looks very decent, but the position he plays that’s a huge ask of an 18 year old, so cameos during the season and being around the first team squad is ideal for his development. With Downes’ combative style to expect him to play regularly would be a tough ask, but both MM and PH have seen something they like about him. I’m disappointed with Emmanuel, that RB position is very much up for grabs and none of the available options appear good enough.

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Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:57 - Aug 15 with 1359 viewsGuthrum

Those saying we changed too much too quickly. on 14:20 - Aug 15 by christiand

Well we could, but not real top end. Also, I don’t see the difference between 47 first team Championship appearances between Nydam, Dozzell and Downes with some players from League 1 and 2 that have been signed having none? Bottom line is, if they are good enough then they are old enough and the case in those three, they are good enough but need the opportunity. Look from your OP Guthrum you make some very good points, which I agree with. I just believe, and it’s only my opinion, there’s been too much change with unproven talent and our young players written off too soon.


37 in the Champ, plus 10 in League Two (Downes, at Luton).

The question is not entirely whether they are good enough, as if they are better than what we have brought in. Leaving Dozzell aside for a moment, as he is returning from injury, are Downes and Nydam better than Nolan, Edwards, Roberts?

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