| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking 21:07 - Aug 16 with 21327 views | pickles110564 |
Made her feel scared again like when she was a child. He should be ashamed.
How can you supporters of his not deny how bad he has behaved? |  | | |  |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:54 - Aug 18 with 1483 views | Darth_Koont |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:45 - Aug 18 by lowhouseblue |
seriously, you draw an equivalence between calling out anti-semitism (whatever secondary motives someone may have) and people calling for a 'final solution to' to the 'problem' of 'nasty jewish people'. and you're not sure which is worse. that's completely disgraceful and you need to ask yourself how you have you've ended up posting something like that. perhaps it's just a throw away comment or you think it's a clever line - but your determination to excuse this stuff has led you somewhere nasty. |
No, you're drawing the equivalence. And I haven't excused this stuff at all. Stop making things up.
My point is how much comments like these are being trumpeted as evidence in a wider and looser accusation rather than as clearly antisemitic comments in their own right. We know there are antisemites in the Labour Party as elsewhere.
I don't see that as limiting the spread of hate, quite the opposite. |  |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:56 - Aug 18 with 1468 views | JETPower |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:54 - Aug 18 by Darth_Koont |
No, you're drawing the equivalence. And I haven't excused this stuff at all. Stop making things up.
My point is how much comments like these are being trumpeted as evidence in a wider and looser accusation rather than as clearly antisemitic comments in their own right. We know there are antisemites in the Labour Party as elsewhere.
I don't see that as limiting the spread of hate, quite the opposite. |
So are you sure which is worse, or not? Do you want to retract that bit? |  | | |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:58 - Aug 18 with 1416 views | GlasgowBlue |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:45 - Aug 18 by lowhouseblue |
seriously, you draw an equivalence between calling out anti-semitism (whatever secondary motives someone may have) and people calling for a 'final solution to' to the 'problem' of 'nasty jewish people'. and you're not sure which is worse. that's completely disgraceful and you need to ask yourself how you have you've ended up posting something like that. perhaps it's just a throw away comment or you think it's a clever line - but your determination to excuse this stuff has led you somewhere nasty. |
That post should be pinned at the top of every thread on the subject of antisemitism. Well said Lowhouse. |  |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:59 - Aug 18 with 1450 views | Darth_Koont |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:56 - Aug 18 by JETPower |
So are you sure which is worse, or not? Do you want to retract that bit? |
Which is worse "in terms of the spread of hate and lies"?
Absolutely not. A lot of people are getting very worried about antisemitism as endemic to Labour under Corbyn. That's pure fear-mongering. | |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:59 - Aug 18 with 1416 views | lowhouseblue |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:54 - Aug 18 by Darth_Koont |
No, you're drawing the equivalence. And I haven't excused this stuff at all. Stop making things up.
My point is how much comments like these are being trumpeted as evidence in a wider and looser accusation rather than as clearly antisemitic comments in their own right. We know there are antisemites in the Labour Party as elsewhere.
I don't see that as limiting the spread of hate, quite the opposite. |
what have i made up? your reply to:
"Final solution, holy sh1t."
was:
"Absolutely disgraceful comments that are then cynically used to further an agenda. I'm not sure which is worst to be honest in terms of spreading hate and lies."
'i'm not sure which is worse' is clearly drawing an equivalence. it's utterly disgraceful.
sometimes the thing to do is apologise. i'm not going to debate it further with you. your post was disgraceful. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:01 - Aug 18 with 1441 views | Darth_Koont |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:59 - Aug 18 by lowhouseblue |
what have i made up? your reply to:
"Final solution, holy sh1t."
was:
"Absolutely disgraceful comments that are then cynically used to further an agenda. I'm not sure which is worst to be honest in terms of spreading hate and lies."
'i'm not sure which is worse' is clearly drawing an equivalence. it's utterly disgraceful.
sometimes the thing to do is apologise. i'm not going to debate it further with you. your post was disgraceful. |
Good to know. | |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:01 - Aug 18 with 1437 views | CoachRob |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:40 - Aug 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It's almost like Glasgow is interpreting things for political reasons! |
GlasgowBlue is a Thatcherite atavist who joined a party at a time that was calling Mandela and the ANC "terrorists"; refused to apply sanctions to the South African apartheid government. Even David Cameron apologised for the Thatcher's foreign policy, add that to support for vile despot Augusto Pinochet and I think GlasgowBlue's credentials as an anti-racist, anti-violence supporter are shot to bits.
FACT: Thatcher referring to ANC "typical terrorist organisation". |  | | |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:04 - Aug 18 with 1430 views | JETPower |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 08:59 - Aug 18 by lowhouseblue |
what have i made up? your reply to:
"Final solution, holy sh1t."
was:
"Absolutely disgraceful comments that are then cynically used to further an agenda. I'm not sure which is worst to be honest in terms of spreading hate and lies."
'i'm not sure which is worse' is clearly drawing an equivalence. it's utterly disgraceful.
sometimes the thing to do is apologise. i'm not going to debate it further with you. your post was disgraceful. |
Utterly, utterly disgraceful. As was the pathetic attempt to weasel out of it above. | | | |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:08 - Aug 18 with 1418 views | JETPower |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:01 - Aug 18 by CoachRob |
GlasgowBlue is a Thatcherite atavist who joined a party at a time that was calling Mandela and the ANC "terrorists"; refused to apply sanctions to the South African apartheid government. Even David Cameron apologised for the Thatcher's foreign policy, add that to support for vile despot Augusto Pinochet and I think GlasgowBlue's credentials as an anti-racist, anti-violence supporter are shot to bits.
FACT: Thatcher referring to ANC "typical terrorist organisation". |
Well I've never been a Tory, never will be, and I disagree with Glasgow on a fair number of things. But I agree with him on this, because he's right.
And I am genuinely disgusted by something I've read on a Town message board, which is troubling. | | | |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:09 - Aug 18 with 1381 views | GlasgowBlue |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:01 - Aug 18 by CoachRob |
GlasgowBlue is a Thatcherite atavist who joined a party at a time that was calling Mandela and the ANC "terrorists"; refused to apply sanctions to the South African apartheid government. Even David Cameron apologised for the Thatcher's foreign policy, add that to support for vile despot Augusto Pinochet and I think GlasgowBlue's credentials as an anti-racist, anti-violence supporter are shot to bits.
FACT: Thatcher referring to ANC "typical terrorist organisation". |
I was fighting racism inside and out of the Tory party when you were still floating around in your old man’s left nut. | |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:10 - Aug 18 with 1410 views | Darth_Koont |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:04 - Aug 18 by JETPower |
Utterly, utterly disgraceful. As was the pathetic attempt to weasel out of it above. |
Amazing how offended you can get when you willfully ignore the context of what I said. | |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:19 - Aug 18 with 1364 views | JETPower |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:10 - Aug 18 by Darth_Koont |
Amazing how offended you can get when you willfully ignore the context of what I said. |
"Absolutely disgraceful comments that are then cynically used to further an agenda. I'm not sure which is worst to be honest in terms of spreading hate and lies."
Is that the context?
You are not sure in terms of which is worse, which 'spreads hate and lies' more, someone who has demonstrably called for a final solution of the Jews, or someone who potentially (but without proof) has an agenda that could undermine Jeremy Corbyn?
Even worst case scenario, organised defamation is not a call for genocide. It is a different level of hate and lie. Where is your moral compass? | | | |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:22 - Aug 18 with 1352 views | JETPower |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:19 - Aug 18 by JETPower |
"Absolutely disgraceful comments that are then cynically used to further an agenda. I'm not sure which is worst to be honest in terms of spreading hate and lies."
Is that the context?
You are not sure in terms of which is worse, which 'spreads hate and lies' more, someone who has demonstrably called for a final solution of the Jews, or someone who potentially (but without proof) has an agenda that could undermine Jeremy Corbyn?
Even worst case scenario, organised defamation is not a call for genocide. It is a different level of hate and lie. Where is your moral compass? |
Shocking caveat for you to have used in the first place anyway. Should just condemn it without specifically finding terms whereby you can excuse or minimise, or draw comparisons that suit. It's appalling.
You seem lost. Hope you find your way out. | | | |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:26 - Aug 18 with 1335 views | Darth_Koont |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:19 - Aug 18 by JETPower |
"Absolutely disgraceful comments that are then cynically used to further an agenda. I'm not sure which is worst to be honest in terms of spreading hate and lies."
Is that the context?
You are not sure in terms of which is worse, which 'spreads hate and lies' more, someone who has demonstrably called for a final solution of the Jews, or someone who potentially (but without proof) has an agenda that could undermine Jeremy Corbyn?
Even worst case scenario, organised defamation is not a call for genocide. It is a different level of hate and lie. Where is your moral compass? |
I didn't draw a moral equivalence. Which is where you seem to have gone wrong.
Of course, the absolutely disgraceful comment is worse on its own. But using inexcusable but relatively isolated examples of antisemitism as important building blocks in a wider accusation of ENDEMIC antisemitism is no better in the spread of hate and lies. | |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:28 - Aug 18 with 1327 views | Darth_Koont |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:22 - Aug 18 by JETPower |
Shocking caveat for you to have used in the first place anyway. Should just condemn it without specifically finding terms whereby you can excuse or minimise, or draw comparisons that suit. It's appalling.
You seem lost. Hope you find your way out. |
FFS. It's not a caveat, it's the central part of what I'm saying. | |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:29 - Aug 18 with 1325 views | JETPower |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:26 - Aug 18 by Darth_Koont |
I didn't draw a moral equivalence. Which is where you seem to have gone wrong.
Of course, the absolutely disgraceful comment is worse on its own. But using inexcusable but relatively isolated examples of antisemitism as important building blocks in a wider accusation of ENDEMIC antisemitism is no better in the spread of hate and lies. |
I happen to think spreading hate and lies is a moral issue, therefore that you drew a moral equivalence. You weren't sure which is worse, and even within the framework you created or chose to find that uncertainty (why?), one is clearly worse than the other. I think you know you erred there. Do your dignity and standing a favour and admit it. | | | |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:32 - Aug 18 with 1313 views | Darth_Koont |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:29 - Aug 18 by JETPower |
I happen to think spreading hate and lies is a moral issue, therefore that you drew a moral equivalence. You weren't sure which is worse, and even within the framework you created or chose to find that uncertainty (why?), one is clearly worse than the other. I think you know you erred there. Do your dignity and standing a favour and admit it. |
Well, that's convenient for your outrage. But not really helpful for understanding what I wrote and taking it on its own merits.
I'm sorry you took it another way. | |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:45 - Aug 18 with 1261 views | JETPower |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:32 - Aug 18 by Darth_Koont |
Well, that's convenient for your outrage. But not really helpful for understanding what I wrote and taking it on its own merits.
I'm sorry you took it another way. |
If you are trying to suggest my 'outrage' is manufactured I can assure you it's not.
There really is only one way to take someone volunteering to equivocate over anti-semitic filth like that (in whatever terms), and I'm sure you will regret doing so give it an hour or two (if you don't already).
I understand what you wrote fully. I'm not sure you do, not the implications of it anyway. I sure hope you don't. It is a slippery slope this stuff, as you have demonstrated this morning.
I really wish it wasn't all over a football message board. It's not a sport. | | | |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:55 - Aug 18 with 1245 views | Darth_Koont |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:45 - Aug 18 by JETPower |
If you are trying to suggest my 'outrage' is manufactured I can assure you it's not.
There really is only one way to take someone volunteering to equivocate over anti-semitic filth like that (in whatever terms), and I'm sure you will regret doing so give it an hour or two (if you don't already).
I understand what you wrote fully. I'm not sure you do, not the implications of it anyway. I sure hope you don't. It is a slippery slope this stuff, as you have demonstrated this morning.
I really wish it wasn't all over a football message board. It's not a sport. |
Eh? I have no idea if your outrage is manufactured or not. Unlike with lowhouse or GB, I see no reason to doubt it's what you feel.
I just think you got it wrong because you took what I wrote differently from how it was intended. For instance, at no stage have I "equivocated over anti-semitic filth". I condemned it immediately as I always do with antisemitic remarks. And if you think I'm drawing a moral equivalence between writing that stuff and calling it out then that's way off too.
I'm specifically talking about the spread of this hate which seems to be amplified and assisted because people want to make a bigger and more political case out of it. I think we can talk about that on its own (and you probably disagree) without getting into moral equivalence discussions and suggestions that I'm excusing the original comment or those like it. | |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 10:11 - Aug 18 with 1185 views | jaykay |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 02:19 - Aug 18 by phillymark |
Thanks for the honest question.
As a Jew I am obligated to give more than one answer!
I'm using http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm as a guide but I've added stuff too (I have taught in Jewish institutions for over 20 years, in all denominations, so I think I'm somewhat qualified)
Religion? Well clearly there is a religion called Judaism, but it is not as simple as that. Many many people maintain their Jewishness without being observant at all. For many it is not a contradiction to call oneself a "Jewish atheist". More than 50% of Israeli Jews call themselves "secular" but they certainly consider themselves to be Jewish. Not sure there are as many people that would call themselves "Atheist Muslims" or "Atheist Anglicans". I might be wrong, but I think Judaism is somewhat unique here
Race? The US Supreme court says yes, but only in terms of who falls into discrimination laws. In my opinion, no. But that's because I don't really think there are "races" as such. As it is pretty difficult (at least historically, changed somewhat now) to convert into Judaism and we don't proselytize, many Jews do have certain genetic traits through common ancestry (according to ancestry.com I have over 90% ashkenazi Jewish ancestry) - eg higher prevalence of certain diseases such as Tay Sachs. But you can convert and therefore we are not a race - I can't convert to being Asian as a comparison
So what are we?
A culture? somewhat. But the cultural differences between ashkenazi and sephardi Jews are reasonably large so this is not quite it either
A nation? that's actually what the Bible says (for what that's worth). What does this mean? It means "a group of people with a common history, a common destiny, and a sense that we are all connected to each other". The word "nation" has a different meaning today and probably applies less nowadays (though the great zionist thinker Ahad Ha'am would disagree)
The article finishes in a soppy way, suggesting "family". That's a bit too Hallmark for me. I'm sorry I can't give you a definitive answer but different Jews would give you a different answer. We are certainly a distinct minority. We are a religion, a culture and a nation - different Jews would choose different orders to put them in.
Hope this helped |
thank you for your reply. so i could convert to the faith but not be a jew ? |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 10:14 - Aug 18 with 1186 views | GlasgowBlue |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:26 - Aug 18 by Darth_Koont |
I didn't draw a moral equivalence. Which is where you seem to have gone wrong.
Of course, the absolutely disgraceful comment is worse on its own. But using inexcusable but relatively isolated examples of antisemitism as important building blocks in a wider accusation of ENDEMIC antisemitism is no better in the spread of hate and lies. |
Not endemic....
You need to open the whole thread. [Post edited 18 Aug 2018 10:46]
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 10:37 - Aug 18 with 1156 views | CoachRob |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:09 - Aug 18 by GlasgowBlue |
I was fighting racism inside and out of the Tory party when you were still floating around in your old man’s left nut. |
Andrew Lansley described racism in the Conservative party as "endemic" in 2001 so your efforts clearly weren't having much effect.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1339163/Racism-endemic-in-Tory-party.htm
You joined a endemically racist party and having failed to have any effect, continued to be part and endorse this political position.
In fact at a time that the Tories have started to put more diverse shortlists together you left the party - coincidence?
Your ability to moralise on racism is hugely clouded by your hard right political history. Nigel Farage would be proud of your faux outrage and political points scoring. | | | |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 10:44 - Aug 18 with 1152 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 10:14 - Aug 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Not endemic....
You need to open the whole thread. [Post edited 18 Aug 2018 10:46]
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Is Ahad a Labour party member?
Also yesterdays tweet about minures of silence......where is the final solution bit that people are talking about and was that a Labour party member?
I really don't use twitter, as hard as that may be to believe! |  |
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| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 11:02 - Aug 18 with 1122 views | JETPower |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 09:55 - Aug 18 by Darth_Koont |
Eh? I have no idea if your outrage is manufactured or not. Unlike with lowhouse or GB, I see no reason to doubt it's what you feel.
I just think you got it wrong because you took what I wrote differently from how it was intended. For instance, at no stage have I "equivocated over anti-semitic filth". I condemned it immediately as I always do with antisemitic remarks. And if you think I'm drawing a moral equivalence between writing that stuff and calling it out then that's way off too.
I'm specifically talking about the spread of this hate which seems to be amplified and assisted because people want to make a bigger and more political case out of it. I think we can talk about that on its own (and you probably disagree) without getting into moral equivalence discussions and suggestions that I'm excusing the original comment or those like it. |
You said my outrage was 'convenient', and obviously that was pointed.
You also chose to equate the filth to something else. I'm afraid you did that.
You juxtaposed it with another accusation (which I think false anyway, but that doesn't really matter), then said you didn't know which was worse.
You were wrong to equate it, wrong to invent a framework with which to do so, and wrong even within that framework that they were in any way equivalent.
It's clear which is worse, both within your framework and outside it. You'd do yourself a favour by admitting that rather than continuing to rely on the semantics that have failed you.
No right-minded person wants to 'make a bigger and more political case' out of the final solution, or historical anti-semitism, or the very real and documented - and endemic - anti-semitism that is clearly present and growing in the UK now, among Labour supporters and elsewhere (and it would be easy to find 8 offending items per day from Corbyn followers, why you'd argue against that I don't know, it's everywhere, but I'm not volunteering to collect it).
I'm not sure you could 'make a bigger and more political case' anyway, or why you would think other right-minded people would do that. It IS big and it is political, by its essence. There's no amplification or assistance required. You must understand that. And the idea that combating anti-semitism is 'spreading hate' negates the fact that anti-semitism is hateful in of itself, in a way pushing back is not.
By suggesting that in British politics Jewish people, or the centre-left (they seem interchangeable as enemies to some) are trying to artificially weaponise this, you do enable those comments and more like it - unwittingly and inadvertently I'm sure - and flirt with at least a couple of anti-semitic tropes in doing do. You give the appearance of sharing a logic with people you do not want to share a logic with, and that is when and why discussions become difficult. It's a dangerous space where you can easily make embarrassing missteps like the one you made earlier.
We're better than that, as a board/community, or at least we used to be. | | | |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking (n/t) on 11:06 - Aug 18 with 1106 views | Aaron_Spelling |
| How Dame Margaret Hodge has been treated by Corbyn is shocking on 11:02 - Aug 18 by JETPower |
You said my outrage was 'convenient', and obviously that was pointed.
You also chose to equate the filth to something else. I'm afraid you did that.
You juxtaposed it with another accusation (which I think false anyway, but that doesn't really matter), then said you didn't know which was worse.
You were wrong to equate it, wrong to invent a framework with which to do so, and wrong even within that framework that they were in any way equivalent.
It's clear which is worse, both within your framework and outside it. You'd do yourself a favour by admitting that rather than continuing to rely on the semantics that have failed you.
No right-minded person wants to 'make a bigger and more political case' out of the final solution, or historical anti-semitism, or the very real and documented - and endemic - anti-semitism that is clearly present and growing in the UK now, among Labour supporters and elsewhere (and it would be easy to find 8 offending items per day from Corbyn followers, why you'd argue against that I don't know, it's everywhere, but I'm not volunteering to collect it).
I'm not sure you could 'make a bigger and more political case' anyway, or why you would think other right-minded people would do that. It IS big and it is political, by its essence. There's no amplification or assistance required. You must understand that. And the idea that combating anti-semitism is 'spreading hate' negates the fact that anti-semitism is hateful in of itself, in a way pushing back is not.
By suggesting that in British politics Jewish people, or the centre-left (they seem interchangeable as enemies to some) are trying to artificially weaponise this, you do enable those comments and more like it - unwittingly and inadvertently I'm sure - and flirt with at least a couple of anti-semitic tropes in doing do. You give the appearance of sharing a logic with people you do not want to share a logic with, and that is when and why discussions become difficult. It's a dangerous space where you can easily make embarrassing missteps like the one you made earlier.
We're better than that, as a board/community, or at least we used to be. |
[Post edited 18 Aug 2018 11:07]
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