| If the Universe is infinite 17:25 - Sep 11 with 20261 views | chicoazul |
that must mean that everything that possibly can happen will eventually happen.
Does this therefore mean free will is an illusion? |  |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:29 - Sep 12 with 2146 views | lowhouseblue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:21 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
You say there isn't enough time or monkeys, but they are infinite in this model.
If you were to say there would, within an infinite amount of time, be intelligent monkeys born that would be able to write the complete works of Shakespeare, you'd be correct. But we're talking about monkeys and typewriters that we have now.
The way monkey fingers work, and the layout of typewriters (as we know them now) makes it impossible for one of them to RANDOMLY type the complete works of Shakespeare.
They would probably type each word that appears in Shakespeare, between them. But one doing it, in the exact sentence structure, over all those plays, it's impossible. You'd need cognitive thought about what you're actually doing. Another human would do it, eventually, but any creature randomly bashing keys wouldn't. |
i think the monkeys are a bit of a distraction here. the key bit is that if the keys were pressed in a random sequence an infinite number of times then eventually one of those sequences would match the sequence of keys implied by shakespeare's complete works. monkey fat fingers is bringing too much reality to the analogy. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:30 - Sep 12 with 2153 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:07 - Sep 12 by Cotty |
I think the monkey thing is getting in the way here Dollers. It's a mathematical fact, with a dodgy analogy to attempt to explain it to non-mathematical people. If I have the same probability of striking any one key on the keyboard, and do that infinitely many times, somewhere in there will exist any string of characters that choose, for instance the complete works of Shakespeare. There's no point to argue here, it's a mathematical factoid! |
I think if you had to hit a different combination of letters than you previously did then it would work. Then you would eventually get the complete works of Shakespeare. Just randomly hitting them, no you wouldn't. |  |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:30 - Sep 12 with 2152 views | StokieBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:21 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
You say there isn't enough time or monkeys, but they are infinite in this model.
If you were to say there would, within an infinite amount of time, be intelligent monkeys born that would be able to write the complete works of Shakespeare, you'd be correct. But we're talking about monkeys and typewriters that we have now.
The way monkey fingers work, and the layout of typewriters (as we know them now) makes it impossible for one of them to RANDOMLY type the complete works of Shakespeare.
They would probably type each word that appears in Shakespeare, between them. But one doing it, in the exact sentence structure, over all those plays, it's impossible. You'd need cognitive thought about what you're actually doing. Another human would do it, eventually, but any creature randomly bashing keys wouldn't. |
Unfortunately you've missed the entire point of the example.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:31 - Sep 12 with 2148 views | Cotty |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:21 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
You say there isn't enough time or monkeys, but they are infinite in this model.
If you were to say there would, within an infinite amount of time, be intelligent monkeys born that would be able to write the complete works of Shakespeare, you'd be correct. But we're talking about monkeys and typewriters that we have now.
The way monkey fingers work, and the layout of typewriters (as we know them now) makes it impossible for one of them to RANDOMLY type the complete works of Shakespeare.
They would probably type each word that appears in Shakespeare, between them. But one doing it, in the exact sentence structure, over all those plays, it's impossible. You'd need cognitive thought about what you're actually doing. Another human would do it, eventually, but any creature randomly bashing keys wouldn't. |
Dollers, never change X X X |  | | |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:32 - Sep 12 with 2144 views | DanTheMan |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:30 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
I think if you had to hit a different combination of letters than you previously did then it would work. Then you would eventually get the complete works of Shakespeare. Just randomly hitting them, no you wouldn't. |
I mean if it was purely random, eventually you would get it. |  |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:33 - Sep 12 with 2138 views | Cotty |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:30 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
I think if you had to hit a different combination of letters than you previously did then it would work. Then you would eventually get the complete works of Shakespeare. Just randomly hitting them, no you wouldn't. |
I'm afraid you're wrong old chap. | | | |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:37 - Sep 12 with 2126 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:28 - Sep 12 by DanTheMan |
You're taking an analogy very literally. |
As far as I can see it's a literal model. And this is why I've always had a problem with it.
If we're just talking some way of picking random letters (i.e. a computer choosing them) then it would work. | |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:37 - Sep 12 with 2126 views | sparks |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:30 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
I think if you had to hit a different combination of letters than you previously did then it would work. Then you would eventually get the complete works of Shakespeare. Just randomly hitting them, no you wouldn't. |
If genuinely random, you would. The chances are miniscule but given infinite time... |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:37 - Sep 12 with 2124 views | Keno |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:33 - Sep 12 by Cotty |
I'm afraid you're wrong old chap. |
be to fair to dollers infinite monkeys infinite type writers may or may not equal Shakespeare
one monkey one green crayon will be about the same as Jeffrey Archer |  |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:42 - Sep 12 with 2108 views | DanTheMan |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:37 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
As far as I can see it's a literal model. And this is why I've always had a problem with it.
If we're just talking some way of picking random letters (i.e. a computer choosing them) then it would work. |
It's not a literal model, it was an imperfect analogy. On topic it's a bit like the analogy of how a balloon inflating is like the universe expanding; not quite how it works but good enough to explain to someone who doesn't understand the details.
EDIT: Did find this though which is quite funny:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3013959.stm
'But after a month, the Sulawesi crested macaques had only succeeded in partially destroying the machine, using it as a lavatory, and mostly typing the letter "s".' [Post edited 12 Sep 2018 13:48]
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:43 - Sep 12 with 2104 views | Kropotkin123 |
The universe, to the best of scientific knowledge, is roughly 11 trillion light years in all directions. Perhaps you mean if the number of universes are infinite... etc.
Free will, as we understand and contest it, would still exist. It would exist within this universe, as it would in the other universes if there are really an infinite amount, with those versions making different independent choices. Your free will is one influencing factor over why there would be differences between different universes.
That should allow you to get back to the standard debate over free will as an illusion - Is free will really predetermined by every input that has ever existed prior to and during your existence? ...possibly. But does that really change anything for you?
I doubt there are infinite universes. Think how many versions there would have to be and how slight a difference there would have to be for one the still have a version of you in it. I assume other universes would be drastically different, with their own differing scientific laws.
It is all a bit much for me tbh. The question I really struggle to get my head around is what space does this universe occupy. Where did it come from, and if you can explain that, where did that space come from and so on and so forth. Even if we were to agree with religious types, where did God/s come from? If they always exist, what did they exist in? Nothingness? What's that? It's a never-ending spiral of questions like when a child first understands the word "why?" |  |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:52 - Sep 12 with 2085 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:37 - Sep 12 by sparks |
If genuinely random, you would. The chances are miniscule but given infinite time... |
If genuinely random then, yes I agree.
I think we're all in agreement here. Choosing random letters (genuinely randomly) would eventually throw up the complete works of everyone, given infinity.
My point was that the monkeys/typewriters analogy doesn't work. | |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:54 - Sep 12 with 2079 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:29 - Sep 12 by lowhouseblue |
i think the monkeys are a bit of a distraction here. the key bit is that if the keys were pressed in a random sequence an infinite number of times then eventually one of those sequences would match the sequence of keys implied by shakespeare's complete works. monkey fat fingers is bringing too much reality to the analogy. |
Yes I agree.
I think some of you have missed my point - to show that the analogy doesn't work. The fact that some of you now want to remove the monkeys proves my point. | |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:58 - Sep 12 with 2072 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:42 - Sep 12 by DanTheMan |
It's not a literal model, it was an imperfect analogy. On topic it's a bit like the analogy of how a balloon inflating is like the universe expanding; not quite how it works but good enough to explain to someone who doesn't understand the details.
EDIT: Did find this though which is quite funny:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3013959.stm
'But after a month, the Sulawesi crested macaques had only succeeded in partially destroying the machine, using it as a lavatory, and mostly typing the letter "s".' [Post edited 12 Sep 2018 13:48]
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Haha. There was an advert that did something similar.
All I was trying to do is prove the analogy doesn't work... even in your funny story they say the only scientific value they got was to show the monkey/typewriter analogy is flawed. | |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 13:59 - Sep 12 with 2070 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:30 - Sep 12 by StokieBlue |
Unfortunately you've missed the entire point of the example.
SB |
Unfortunately you've missed MY point.
BB | |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 14:03 - Sep 12 with 2062 views | sparks |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:59 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
Unfortunately you've missed MY point.
BB |
Good grief. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 14:05 - Sep 12 with 2054 views | SpruceMoose |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:37 - Sep 12 by Keno |
be to fair to dollers infinite monkeys infinite type writers may or may not equal Shakespeare
one monkey one green crayon will be about the same as Jeffrey Archer |
Monkeys type semi coherent nonsense on here all the time, so I am liable to believe it. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 14:06 - Sep 12 with 2053 views | Swansea_Blue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 21:12 - Sep 11 by Deano69 |
So how do you get back again? |
Brexit. But you can only go back to 1850. |  |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 14:10 - Sep 12 with 2043 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 14:03 - Sep 12 by sparks |
Good grief. |
You want to explain that comment Bullers?
My point was to show the analogy doesn't work. People are now removing the monkeys. Think that pretty much proves my point doesn't it? Or have you failed to read all of the thread? | |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 14:11 - Sep 12 with 2041 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 14:05 - Sep 12 by SpruceMoose |
Monkeys type semi coherent nonsense on here all the time, so I am liable to believe it. |
So do moose. And they have hooves! | |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 14:12 - Sep 12 with 2038 views | SpruceMoose |
| If the Universe is infinite on 14:11 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
So do moose. And they have hooves! |
I started my last comment last week though. Takes me hours of bashing away with these useless hooves to come to a decent conclusion.
So to speak. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 14:13 - Sep 12 with 2037 views | sparks |
| If the Universe is infinite on 14:10 - Sep 12 by BrixtonBlue |
You want to explain that comment Bullers?
My point was to show the analogy doesn't work. People are now removing the monkeys. Think that pretty much proves my point doesn't it? Or have you failed to read all of the thread? |
It's quite clear you have never understood the analogy and for reasons unclear have been bizarrely literal about it. Everyone else in the thread is bemused. You appear to be doubling down in trumpesque fashion! | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 14:18 - Sep 12 with 2030 views | BrixtonBlue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 14:13 - Sep 12 by sparks |
It's quite clear you have never understood the analogy and for reasons unclear have been bizarrely literal about it. Everyone else in the thread is bemused. You appear to be doubling down in trumpesque fashion! |
No, I understand the analogy. I've attempted to show that it doesn't work, and I believe I've been successful in that.
I got to the point where at least two posters had to remove the monkeys. Job done.
Maybe I'm just too clever for you Bullers  | |
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| If the Universe is infinite on 14:22 - Sep 12 with 2019 views | eireblue |
| If the Universe is infinite on 13:42 - Sep 12 by DanTheMan |
It's not a literal model, it was an imperfect analogy. On topic it's a bit like the analogy of how a balloon inflating is like the universe expanding; not quite how it works but good enough to explain to someone who doesn't understand the details.
EDIT: Did find this though which is quite funny:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3013959.stm
'But after a month, the Sulawesi crested macaques had only succeeded in partially destroying the machine, using it as a lavatory, and mostly typing the letter "s".' [Post edited 12 Sep 2018 13:48]
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So, are you saying, a few Monkeys, with a bit more time, would get close to being able to write an advert? |  | | |
| If the Universe is infinite on 14:23 - Sep 12 with 2017 views | Keno |
| If the Universe is infinite on 14:22 - Sep 12 by eireblue |
So, are you saying, a few Monkeys, with a bit more time, would get close to being able to write an advert? |
Only if you fed them Haribo | |
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