| Going down..... 08:50 - Sep 16 with 5842 views | itfcjoe |
.....if things don't start to click soon then we are going to be in League 1 next season, I'm not sure how anyone who has seen us can disagree with that.
Yesterday was incredibly poor, I thought the team selection was decent enough all things considered and knowing what we knew but it just didn't work as the players played poorly - shirking responsibility on the ball from front to back.
Hurst and Chambers have come out and said that we aren't playing like we are training, and Hurst's comments after the game seemed very honest and well considered but also seemed to come across as a beaten man, like a manager presiding over a team with 7 games left on the bottom of the league - not 7 games gone.
We just do not try and play the ball, we hit so many long balls - the pattern of the play yesterday just saw the midfielders pass the ball back to the defenders, and the defenders launch it long either diagnolly to the wingers where their full backs won everything, or to the CBs who won everything (Did Walters win more than a couple of headers all day?)[Just looked up - between the back 5 we hit 67 long balls, of which 20 were accurate]
When the CBs had the ball, our midfielders do try and create angles to receive the ball but they don't get it passed to them, and then when they do it is so alow and cumbersome by that point the real option is to go back to the CBs as they have so many markers around them they can't take it on and do something positive.
Downes seemed to hide after his mistake which didn't help. Nolan seems a yard behind where he needs to be, but in fairness to him he makes some decent runs in between the lines but no-one looks to find him - some of the very little decent passages of passing generally involved him or Graham being found early and to feet - but it just doesn't happen enough.
And this high intensity pressing game......we very rarely commit more than 1 or 2 to the press which is utterly pointless - they were very easily passed through by a poor Hull side and we were overrun for the majority of the game.
Hurst has made far too many changes to the squad, the money coming in from the sales has made his eyes light up and I think he has underestimated the quality of this league, and recruited poorly in a few cases.
He needs to settle on a team too, this feels like the bad old days of Keano where you would turn up to the game without a clue on how we will set up. Players that have played well like Donacien and Edun get binned off, a goalkeeper who is having a rocky patch but is a proven top performer at this level is dropped as one of 6 changes for a local derby.
Hurst needs to be a bit more humble, lean on the experience and quality of Bart, Skuse, Chambers etc and get them fully on side. He needs to have some consistency with his decision making and this is what I feared when you see the size of the squad - that 25 players have played this season and it is the middle of September looks like a manager trying to through enough mud against the wall hoping something sticks or that he stumbles across something.
I still think Hurst can turn this around - but he needs to have the courage of his convictions and settle down.
Too many of the decisions in regards to the transfers and the changes to the team can be argued that in isolation they make sense - but the big picture with regards to recruitment and selection is a mess at the moment.
It won't get any easier on Tuesday, but I'm hopeful that it can be the start of the season beginning to settle down and pick up some points - or Hurst's neck will be on the chopping block come October |  |
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| Going down..... on 08:51 - Sep 16 with 4385 views | CurlyPete |
League One investment, at best
League One players
League One manager |  | | |
| Going down..... on 09:01 - Sep 16 with 4334 views | Bluebell |
Great post Joe. I agree with all of that.
I have said all along that we made too many changes too soon. To bring in 12 players, some of whom have never played Championship football was absolute madness and almost panic buying.
We had a good team under Mick that needed a few tweaks and a different style of football. We lost our 3 top strikers who, in spite of injuries, still managed to score nearly 40 goals between them.
Yes, we are letting in silly goals but if we were also scoring goals we could win games. It looks like Harrison and Jackson are no longer favourites so it is all down to Jon Walkers up front on his own.
League 1 beckons if is carries on as it is. [Post edited 16 Sep 2018 12:48]
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| Going down..... on 09:01 - Sep 16 with 4338 views | RegencyBlue |
I think we could do with some sort of Director of Football with Championship experience to guide Hurst whilst he comes up to speed.
At the moment he looks overwhelmed by it all. |  | | |
| Going down..... on 09:03 - Sep 16 with 4322 views | jas0999 |
I’m not sure it will click, because I’m not now convinced the vast majority of players are good enough. The manager also seems out of his depth.
Sadly, we also only spent around 60% of the money received this Summer. We can’t even say wages have increased, because last years loans would have likely been on more than this years, whilst Garner, Webster, McGoldrick and a Waghorn possibly on as much combined as all of the new signings. Whilst may other fringe plAyers also left like Bru and Hyam. |  | | |
| Going down..... on 09:09 - Sep 16 with 4283 views | itfcjoe |
| Going down..... on 09:01 - Sep 16 by RegencyBlue |
I think we could do with some sort of Director of Football with Championship experience to guide Hurst whilst he comes up to speed.
At the moment he looks overwhelmed by it all. |
Too late for a proper DoF, that ship has sailed and would undermine and be beginning of the end for Hurst | |
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| Going down..... on 09:11 - Sep 16 with 4257 views | Superfrans |
I agree with a lot of that. Including the opening line, that we’re going down unless we improve. Patently so.
As I’ve said elsewhere, the dropping of Bart has logic. The dropping of Donacien, Edun AND Chalobah doesn’t. Spence for Donacien because of the permit issue maybe, but how is Downes now ahead of Chalobah or Edun.
But, Hurst needs to persevere, if this is what he thinks his first team is. Maybe a tweak here and there as he goes along (for instance, I’d swap Chalobah in for Downes in Tuesday, but leave it at that).
This also means leaving Pennington out when Nsiala is available again. Pennington has looked good and doesn’t deserve to get dropped. He’s the man in possession, leave him in there.
Graham looked more involved yesterday, a big improvement on the derby. I still fear that he flatters to deceive, but if he can continue to improve he’s worth persevering with.
This team needs to be given time to gel, for partnerships to develop, which means a consistent run of games, working together, playing together, so they can start to pick up points again,
But above all, Hurst needs to instill this team with some confidence - confidence to stick with the passing game and the press where necessary.
There’s also a lot of talk about over recruitment and these new players not being good enough. Fact is, Hurst was left with a squad which was already down 9 players on last season (loanees and out of contract players) and found 3 players who (when other teams came calling) wanted to leave. Not recruiting quickly would have left huge holes in the squad. The list of players who went is at the bottom. I know some of them are loanees, but the games they contributed to still needed replacing.
On the quality, I haven’t seen anyone yet who has looked out of his depth. They are all struggling to settle in such an unsettled, developing side. I suspect that, integrated into a settled Championship side, they’d mostly be fine. But all thrown in together, they are struggling to adapt right now.
Problem is, of course, we are where we are - and we don’t have loads of time. In two weeks time, we will be 10 games into the season. If we end up there with 5 points and no wins still, we will be in big big trouble.
Last season’s departees:
Bru 9 games (17-18)
Carayol 8
Carter Vickers 17
Celina 35
Connolly 34
Garner 32
Gleeson 10
Hyam 17
Iorfa 23
McGoldrick 22
Waghorn 44
Webster 28 [Post edited 16 Sep 2018 9:13]
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| Going down..... on 09:15 - Sep 16 with 4230 views | brogansnose |
What I find concerning, amongst other things, is that there doesn't seem to be any 'gelling', clear vision of what he actually wants or semblance of progression. Even when BK took over the reins at the end of last season you could see the improvement albeit in terms of style despite results at times not being that favourable.
Frankly, I'm struggling to see where the points are coming from and he needs to get results from Bolton, B'mingham and QPR or we are truly dans la merde. |  | | |
| Going down..... on 09:19 - Sep 16 with 4193 views | RegencyBlue |
| Going down..... on 09:09 - Sep 16 by itfcjoe |
Too late for a proper DoF, that ship has sailed and would undermine and be beginning of the end for Hurst |
Fair point.
Maybe something unofficial then. Certainly he appears to need advice from someone! | | | |
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| Going down..... on 09:21 - Sep 16 with 4182 views | Ace_High1 |
Agreed and the biggest problem at the moment is he has too many players to pick from and then when results are poor, the manager has a tendency to chop and change game to game which does not help.
I know the window has closed but he almost needs to pick a squad within a squad for the next 2 months to pick from:
Bart (has to play, yes made a few mistakes but he has to be our number 1 and will be moving forward).
Gerken (back up, nothing more)
Donacien
Knudsen
Chambers
Pennington
Nsiala
Kenlock
Skuse
Chalobah
Bishop
Huws
Dozzell
Edwards
Nolan
Ward
Rowe (never had a chance since he has been here so need to see what he can do before a decision is made)
Walters
Jackson (needs to play to get a goal, longer it goes on it could be a real problem)
Harrison (as above)
I appreciate he has been easing Bishop, Dozzell and Huws back but at some point they need to be thrown in. They will never get up to speed without getting minutes and it may be a case that we accept they will be off the pace for a few games but whilst they complete minutes they will be nearer to getting back and being the creativity we seem devoid of.
Of those left out:
Spence - nowhere near good enough, make available for transfer
Graham - no idea why we signed him, no improvement on what we have and has hardly played over last few years
Roberts - waste of a signing
Sears - time is up, wish him well and make available for transfer
Downes - I would like to see him loaned out again
Edun - nothing against him but no long term benefit in him playing instead of Bishop, Dozzell, Hows etc, a waste of a loan and almost a case of him being available so we thought we might as well take him.
I would then personally recall Nydam and Woolenden in January and consider sending back Pennington.
Less options, more settled squad. |  | | |
| Going down..... on 09:22 - Sep 16 with 4169 views | Darth_Koont |
I think the great problem is that it's unclear what we're trying to do. I accepted the need to bring in players and put our youth players on hold if we were going for a team that would outrun and overpower the opposition pressing high up the pitch but we haven't seen that at all if we're honest. Even the first half at Rotherham is starting to look like us playing a side who were just incredibly slow out of the blocks.
I hope the issue is simply confidence and that things can change but I share your concern especially while we don't seem to have any discernible approach on the pitch that justifies the massive player turnover nor the seemingly random selections from week to week. |  |
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| Going down..... on 09:24 - Sep 16 with 4147 views | brogansnose |
| Going down..... on 09:19 - Sep 16 by RegencyBlue |
Fair point.
Maybe something unofficial then. Certainly he appears to need advice from someone! |
Which is kind of what Jim did when he got in Gorman and even keane was trying to get in the likes of Peter Taylor and Brendan Rodgers ultimately he got in McParland. Saying that, Hurst has got Doig. | | | |
| Going down..... on 09:26 - Sep 16 with 4124 views | Superfrans |
| Going down..... on 09:15 - Sep 16 by brogansnose |
What I find concerning, amongst other things, is that there doesn't seem to be any 'gelling', clear vision of what he actually wants or semblance of progression. Even when BK took over the reins at the end of last season you could see the improvement albeit in terms of style despite results at times not being that favourable.
Frankly, I'm struggling to see where the points are coming from and he needs to get results from Bolton, B'mingham and QPR or we are truly dans la merde. |
To be fair, Klug had no option but to use what he had. There was no transfer window available to him so...
You would hope that now, the window having closed, that Hurst will settle on what he thinks is his first team and play with that, maybe a couple of tweaks as we go along.
For all my feelings of concern/misery following Hull yesterday, I’m expecting us to come out all guns blazing vs Brentford, scrap away, and maybe get something - to set us up for a big game vs Bolton next Saturday. | |
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| Going down..... on 09:29 - Sep 16 with 4098 views | brogansnose |
| Going down..... on 09:26 - Sep 16 by Superfrans |
To be fair, Klug had no option but to use what he had. There was no transfer window available to him so...
You would hope that now, the window having closed, that Hurst will settle on what he thinks is his first team and play with that, maybe a couple of tweaks as we go along.
For all my feelings of concern/misery following Hull yesterday, I’m expecting us to come out all guns blazing vs Brentford, scrap away, and maybe get something - to set us up for a big game vs Bolton next Saturday. |
Win or lose Tuesday night, I would expect to see a positive reaction from the manager and team and hopefully this will be the case. Actually makes me a bit fired up for the Brentford game. | | | |
| Going down..... on 09:31 - Sep 16 with 4086 views | Superfrans |
| Going down..... on 09:21 - Sep 16 by Ace_High1 |
Agreed and the biggest problem at the moment is he has too many players to pick from and then when results are poor, the manager has a tendency to chop and change game to game which does not help.
I know the window has closed but he almost needs to pick a squad within a squad for the next 2 months to pick from:
Bart (has to play, yes made a few mistakes but he has to be our number 1 and will be moving forward).
Gerken (back up, nothing more)
Donacien
Knudsen
Chambers
Pennington
Nsiala
Kenlock
Skuse
Chalobah
Bishop
Huws
Dozzell
Edwards
Nolan
Ward
Rowe (never had a chance since he has been here so need to see what he can do before a decision is made)
Walters
Jackson (needs to play to get a goal, longer it goes on it could be a real problem)
Harrison (as above)
I appreciate he has been easing Bishop, Dozzell and Huws back but at some point they need to be thrown in. They will never get up to speed without getting minutes and it may be a case that we accept they will be off the pace for a few games but whilst they complete minutes they will be nearer to getting back and being the creativity we seem devoid of.
Of those left out:
Spence - nowhere near good enough, make available for transfer
Graham - no idea why we signed him, no improvement on what we have and has hardly played over last few years
Roberts - waste of a signing
Sears - time is up, wish him well and make available for transfer
Downes - I would like to see him loaned out again
Edun - nothing against him but no long term benefit in him playing instead of Bishop, Dozzell, Hows etc, a waste of a loan and almost a case of him being available so we thought we might as well take him.
I would then personally recall Nydam and Woolenden in January and consider sending back Pennington.
Less options, more settled squad. |
To be honest, we’re in an immediate fix, we need to sort things out now. Planning for January can wait until December.
Hurst needs to stick with yesterday’s line-up, perhaps with a couple of tweaks, and let the team get used to each other. Aside from anything else, the team can’t know whether they are coming or going at the moment, some stability would help them too.
FWIW Graham was okay yestday, lacked a final ball, but got amongst them, tried things that others wouldn’t. He needs to build some familiarity with Walters and then, who knows?
I’d start as yesterday, but with Chalobah in for Downes. Build the training around that unit and give it another go. | |
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| Going down..... on 09:33 - Sep 16 with 4073 views | Superfrans |
| Going down..... on 09:29 - Sep 16 by brogansnose |
Win or lose Tuesday night, I would expect to see a positive reaction from the manager and team and hopefully this will be the case. Actually makes me a bit fired up for the Brentford game. |
The interview Chambers gave yesterday indicates a captain who will be getting them all really going for it on Tuesday. He knows how big this week is. | |
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| Going down..... on 09:36 - Sep 16 with 4055 views | m14_blue |
That lack of bravery and quality in possession is the thing that worries me most.
At least at the start of the season we could cling to the idea that we were trying to develop a new style and were in transition. That all seems to have gone out of the window in the last 2 games.
Against both Norwich and Hull we were very direct and lacked any real quality. Basically like Mick's teams but with worse players. | | | |
| Going down..... on 09:39 - Sep 16 with 4031 views | ParisBlue |
| Going down..... on 09:31 - Sep 16 by Superfrans |
To be honest, we’re in an immediate fix, we need to sort things out now. Planning for January can wait until December.
Hurst needs to stick with yesterday’s line-up, perhaps with a couple of tweaks, and let the team get used to each other. Aside from anything else, the team can’t know whether they are coming or going at the moment, some stability would help them too.
FWIW Graham was okay yestday, lacked a final ball, but got amongst them, tried things that others wouldn’t. He needs to build some familiarity with Walters and then, who knows?
I’d start as yesterday, but with Chalobah in for Downes. Build the training around that unit and give it another go. |
The worrying thing for me is that we haven’t actually played anyone decent thus far. Derby in 7th are the highest placed. |  |
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| Going down..... on 09:47 - Sep 16 with 3962 views | Reuser_is_God |
Agree with pretty much all that.
My levels of concern went up a few notches after yesterday.
We need to come out of these 2 home games with a settled side & 4 points IMO. |  |
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| Going down..... on 09:50 - Sep 16 with 3941 views | Steve_M |
Very much agreed. There are mitigating factors for lots of things but ultimately we're conceding too many goals, not scoring many and lacking any sense of progress across the season. That's a sign of a team in trouble.
It's clear Hurst underestimated the division and his aligned willingness to sell first team players had exacerbated the resultant weakness. Virtually all of the signings have something about them but expecting them to step up in this way was clearly going to be difficult.
I think we've got the next two, maybe three, matches to get a win before we're in the sort of territory we were in at the end of Jewell's reign. We definitely need a reaction. |  |
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| Going down..... on 10:04 - Sep 16 with 3877 views | christiand |
Spot on Joe. I think it's one of those situations in sport when the management and the players need to get in the dressing room, lock the door, have an honest and frank conversation and say a few home truths face to face. Some might not like what they hear, but feel that too many are pulling in opposite directions both in the team and on the sideline - clearly the message isn't getting through. It will clear the air, hopefully galvanise the squad and management and then allow us to move forwards long term. | |
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| Going down..... on 10:16 - Sep 16 with 3814 views | Herbivore |
| Going down..... on 09:15 - Sep 16 by brogansnose |
What I find concerning, amongst other things, is that there doesn't seem to be any 'gelling', clear vision of what he actually wants or semblance of progression. Even when BK took over the reins at the end of last season you could see the improvement albeit in terms of style despite results at times not being that favourable.
Frankly, I'm struggling to see where the points are coming from and he needs to get results from Bolton, B'mingham and QPR or we are truly dans la merde. |
The first 5 games, whilst results were mixed, there was at least something approaching a pattern of play and we looked to be making some progress. We played well against Villa and had good spells in our other games. We then signed another three loanees, on top of the other nine players that were bedding in, and Hurst has thrown all three straight in and the result has been our two poorest performances of the season. I think everyone agreed we needed a CB and Nsiala's suspension forced our hand on that one, we also needed an experienced striker and a left winger. What we didn't necessarily need was to chuck them all into the starting line up alongside a change of goalie and seven other outfield players still getting to know each other. It smacked of panic and set back the gelling process imo.
I hope Hurst learns from it, results weren't what we'd hoped for but making too many changes led to a dip in performances and he should have anticipated that given that the scale of changes he'd made to begin with led to a disjointed start. He needs to have the courage to stick with what he's trying to do rather than mixing it up each game in the hope that it clicks. I still have faith, and if we get through this tough spell I think Hurst could be a very good manager here, he has good credentials and if he can learn and adapt to this level that's another string to his bow. Time will tell though. |  |
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| Going down..... on 11:38 - Sep 16 with 3597 views | Horseboy |
| Going down..... on 09:09 - Sep 16 by itfcjoe |
Too late for a proper DoF, that ship has sailed and would undermine and be beginning of the end for Hurst |
Correct, any such move would be the end of Hurst long term effectively making him head coach. | | | |
| Going down..... on 11:43 - Sep 16 with 3574 views | PJH |
| Going down..... on 09:39 - Sep 16 by ParisBlue |
The worrying thing for me is that we haven’t actually played anyone decent thus far. Derby in 7th are the highest placed. |
True, on paper it has been a set of fixtures from which you could have expected to get a reasonable or even good total of points from the first seven games.
Three points is certainly not a reasonable or even good total. |  | | |
| Going down..... on 12:02 - Sep 16 with 3526 views | Campag_Velocet |
The big thing I’d say in Hurst’s defence when it comes to signings is that we needed to bring in numbers everywhere but central midfield (where we have a lot of players for 2-3 positions). But with Evans’ spending record over the last five years, he was never going to get all the Webster/Waghorn et al money to spend. He needed to replace McGoldrick, Smith and even Berra, as well as bring in wingers for his system, even before he had to decide whether he rated our existing players. Given the money that appears to have been at his disposal, the question is does he try and bring younger players from a lower division, or spend more on one or two players with Championship experience and fish out of the free transfer bin for the rest.
McCarthy did the latter (apart from the being able to spend anything more than nominal amounts), and picked up some really good signings (Chambers, Skuse, McGoldrick, Murphy for example), some that didn’t stay long but made important contributions (Chaplow, Vardy) and lots of players that weren’t worth the wage like Leon Best. But McCarthy knows this division well, and doesn’t get to see much of the lower divisions, with Hurst its vice versa, so both took the best approach for their knowledge. But the handcuffs of our budget are really exposing Hurst and some of his signings.
My biggest issue with Hurst’s signings is that they’ve all dropped into non league at some point during their career, and since bouncing back, haven’t established themselves at the level they were playing at, let alone this one. There isn’t a big jump in class between League One and Two, or even the bottom of the Championship and League One, but there’s an enormous leap between the top and bottom of the Championship, and (Villa and amuch changed Derby apart) we haven’t played the top sides yet. | | | |
| Going down..... on 12:04 - Sep 16 with 3513 views | sparks |
| Going down..... on 12:02 - Sep 16 by Campag_Velocet |
The big thing I’d say in Hurst’s defence when it comes to signings is that we needed to bring in numbers everywhere but central midfield (where we have a lot of players for 2-3 positions). But with Evans’ spending record over the last five years, he was never going to get all the Webster/Waghorn et al money to spend. He needed to replace McGoldrick, Smith and even Berra, as well as bring in wingers for his system, even before he had to decide whether he rated our existing players. Given the money that appears to have been at his disposal, the question is does he try and bring younger players from a lower division, or spend more on one or two players with Championship experience and fish out of the free transfer bin for the rest.
McCarthy did the latter (apart from the being able to spend anything more than nominal amounts), and picked up some really good signings (Chambers, Skuse, McGoldrick, Murphy for example), some that didn’t stay long but made important contributions (Chaplow, Vardy) and lots of players that weren’t worth the wage like Leon Best. But McCarthy knows this division well, and doesn’t get to see much of the lower divisions, with Hurst its vice versa, so both took the best approach for their knowledge. But the handcuffs of our budget are really exposing Hurst and some of his signings.
My biggest issue with Hurst’s signings is that they’ve all dropped into non league at some point during their career, and since bouncing back, haven’t established themselves at the level they were playing at, let alone this one. There isn’t a big jump in class between League One and Two, or even the bottom of the Championship and League One, but there’s an enormous leap between the top and bottom of the Championship, and (Villa and amuch changed Derby apart) we haven’t played the top sides yet. |
I dont think thats the issue at all. It takes time for players to find their feet at a new club and a new league. The issue is they havent had that opportunity. A few games in he has reversed direction and totally changed the way we play and the players. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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