| 2nd referendum 22:49 - Sep 19 with 11129 views | Bluefish |
Is the only possible next step. I would however pander to the morons and their democracy, I would give 2 options again but this time round I would demand that both sides are fully explained 1st. The options would be hard or soft brexit and I'm sat this as a fierce remainer, I would love to have remain as an option and run it again with clear definitions but it would never be accepted.
How can anyone that apparently believes in democracy not want this complete mess resolved by a public vote to clear it up? |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 09:49 - Sep 20 with 1467 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 2nd referendum on 22:57 - Sep 19 by Currie10 |
Why stop at a 2nd.
Why not do a best of 27 series, or better still, a best of 79 series votes.
It's done. It's over. |
Ha. You're not Liam Fox are you? |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 09:51 - Sep 20 with 1460 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 09:42 - Sep 20 by StokieBlue |
I don't think it's anything like the original choice, in that choice we didn't know leave was. I thought it was pretty clear, I've already explained what remain was on my last post.
- Government proposal (this will be a brexit deal or WTO terms)
- Remain (status quo as was before the first referendum which was the same as forever since the negioiations didn't work)
It's nothing like the first referendum. In that we had absolutely no idea what the government proposal would have been.
SB |
My view is that it would be wholly undemocratic to put remain back on the ballot paper. The best you might hope for is a vote on the type of leave deal. |  | | |
| 2nd referendum on 09:52 - Sep 20 with 1452 views | WeWereZombies |
| 2nd referendum on 09:46 - Sep 20 by chicoazul |
A 2nd referendum would be a massive Leave victory and would guarantee WTO and hard Brexit. |
What do you base that opinion on? The pollsters (who it has to be said do not always get things right) are saying that even England is solidly Remain now. |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 09:53 - Sep 20 with 1449 views | pickles110564 |
How can anyone that apparently believes in democracy not want this complete mess resolved by a public vote to clear it up?
So you just want to keep voting until you get the result you want, great democracy right there! |  | | |
| 2nd referendum on 09:55 - Sep 20 with 1441 views | ITFC_Forever |
| 2nd referendum on 09:51 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
My view is that it would be wholly undemocratic to put remain back on the ballot paper. The best you might hope for is a vote on the type of leave deal. |
Is it not wholly undemocratic to base a campaign on lies and opportunism for those behind the leave campaign?
How is the electorate supposed to make an informed decision when they are being fed a pack of lies by a racist chancer (Farage) and self-serving, opportunists who don't really believe in what they are campaigning for, but are trying to manoeuvre themselves in to a position of more power (Boris and co). |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 09:56 - Sep 20 with 1438 views | Swansea_Blue |
Does anyone really want to go through another campaign like that again where people are even more entrenched, more divided and there'll be even more bullsh*t spouted?
Can't think of anything worse. | |
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| 2nd referendum on 09:58 - Sep 20 with 1443 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 09:55 - Sep 20 by ITFC_Forever |
Is it not wholly undemocratic to base a campaign on lies and opportunism for those behind the leave campaign?
How is the electorate supposed to make an informed decision when they are being fed a pack of lies by a racist chancer (Farage) and self-serving, opportunists who don't really believe in what they are campaigning for, but are trying to manoeuvre themselves in to a position of more power (Boris and co). |
Hmmm, dont really want to get too involved in this type of argument but that’s a very ignorant portrayal of the the leave campaign and those that voted to leave.
And it doesn’t make the outcome of the referendum any less democratic. | | | |
| 2nd referendum on 10:02 - Sep 20 with 1428 views | WeWereZombies |
| 2nd referendum on 09:53 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
How can anyone that apparently believes in democracy not want this complete mess resolved by a public vote to clear it up?
So you just want to keep voting until you get the result you want, great democracy right there! |
I think we want a result that gives Britain a future again, that delivers an escape from becoming a client state of the US (who have somehow become a puppet of Putin) whilst the rest of the Commonwealth sees it's economies picked off by China one by one.
And if we can do that with a better mandate than a lower percentage of the electorate that tried to break up the United Kingdom and failed then all well and good. If we can do so convincly enough to roar back into Europe avoiding the Euro and providing an appropriate counterweight to Germany so much the better. | |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:03 - Sep 20 with 1428 views | chicoazul |
| 2nd referendum on 09:52 - Sep 20 by WeWereZombies |
What do you base that opinion on? The pollsters (who it has to be said do not always get things right) are saying that even England is solidly Remain now. |
The Tories are pro Brexit. Labour, a more or less Brexit supporting party, are stacking on members at a huge rate who tend to be young and therefore malleable and The Maximum Leader himself is at best ambivalent and at worst utterly hostile to the EU seeing it as he does as a corporatist protectorate preventing him from enacting his industrial policies. The LDs are a totally spent political force. There is nobody on the Remain side who can match Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage for demagoguery and power of argument. Maybe Gordon Brown is the only one who could but he feels to me like damaged goods nowadays tainted as he is with the New Labour associations and therefore Iraq, financial crisis etc
Every one of these threads I read online here Twitter Facebook and elsewhere contain the same arguments about how Leave voters are stupid racist redneck idiots and Remain voters are disinterested metropolitan elitists which only contribute to a hardening of those respective positions. Nobody's minds are changed and the debate is over.
The referendum, and increasingly elections, are single issue votes which people make based on feelings and tribal loyalties rather than cool hard facts which btw are very hard to come by when it comes to the opaque EU. |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:08 - Sep 20 with 1416 views | ITFC_Forever |
| 2nd referendum on 09:53 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
How can anyone that apparently believes in democracy not want this complete mess resolved by a public vote to clear it up?
So you just want to keep voting until you get the result you want, great democracy right there! |
Keeping voting until you get the result you want was exactly Farage's plan - he was hoping at best for a 48-52 defeat so he could keep banging the drum and re-forcing votes.
Even he was amazed at the result. | |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:12 - Sep 20 with 1405 views | StokieBlue |
| 2nd referendum on 09:51 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
My view is that it would be wholly undemocratic to put remain back on the ballot paper. The best you might hope for is a vote on the type of leave deal. |
How can any vote be undemocratic?
Surely it's more undemocratic to restrict the vote? It's like saying there are two parties on the ballot paper, you know the policies of one but not the other. You vote and then realise the policies of the one you voted for are crap.
You're saying you can't vote that party out, just have a vote on their policies.
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| 2nd referendum on 10:18 - Sep 20 with 1388 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 10:12 - Sep 20 by StokieBlue |
How can any vote be undemocratic?
Surely it's more undemocratic to restrict the vote? It's like saying there are two parties on the ballot paper, you know the policies of one but not the other. You vote and then realise the policies of the one you voted for are crap.
You're saying you can't vote that party out, just have a vote on their policies.
SB |
This was a referendum not a General Election there is nothing undemocratic about voting in a general election when you can remove the incumbent government. | | | |
| 2nd referendum on 10:19 - Sep 20 with 1386 views | Chondzoresk |
| 2nd referendum on 09:04 - Sep 20 by ITFC_Aylesbury |
But we still don't know what leave actually entails, you blathering half-wit! |
As I am a half wit....you had better explain it to me, you seem to know. |  | | |
| 2nd referendum on 10:21 - Sep 20 with 1383 views | giant_stow |
| 2nd referendum on 09:51 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
My view is that it would be wholly undemocratic to put remain back on the ballot paper. The best you might hope for is a vote on the type of leave deal. |
Its democratic to deny people a choice? Interesting |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:23 - Sep 20 with 1379 views | StokieBlue |
| 2nd referendum on 10:18 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
This was a referendum not a General Election there is nothing undemocratic about voting in a general election when you can remove the incumbent government. |
That's not what I said, you are going into semantics when it was just a broad example.
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| 2nd referendum on 10:25 - Sep 20 with 1376 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 10:21 - Sep 20 by giant_stow |
Its democratic to deny people a choice? Interesting |
But the people had a choice and made a decision - jeez how hard is that to comprehend?
As I said before why concede a second referundum to the people who clearly fail to accept the decsion of a referendum? [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 10:26]
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| 2nd referendum on 10:26 - Sep 20 with 1367 views | StokieBlue |
| 2nd referendum on 10:25 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
But the people had a choice and made a decision - jeez how hard is that to comprehend?
As I said before why concede a second referundum to the people who clearly fail to accept the decsion of a referendum? [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 10:26]
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Facts are key.
You seem to be against people making a choice based on full facts and prefer them to make a choice based on hearsay.
It's a strange position.
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| 2nd referendum on 10:30 - Sep 20 with 1361 views | giant_stow |
| 2nd referendum on 10:25 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
But the people had a choice and made a decision - jeez how hard is that to comprehend?
As I said before why concede a second referundum to the people who clearly fail to accept the decsion of a referendum? [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 10:26]
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They made a choice based on a whole load of unknowns, ifs and maybes - the air is clearing and the *real* choice is being finalised.
Why are you guys so scared of democracy? | |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:33 - Sep 20 with 1346 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 2nd referendum on 10:12 - Sep 20 by StokieBlue |
How can any vote be undemocratic?
Surely it's more undemocratic to restrict the vote? It's like saying there are two parties on the ballot paper, you know the policies of one but not the other. You vote and then realise the policies of the one you voted for are crap.
You're saying you can't vote that party out, just have a vote on their policies.
SB |
You'd have to look to Putin's 75-80% majority to begin to answer a question like that.
But obviously we're not in that position, although there are a few things that have happened that should at least raise eyebrows. Should breaching the election laws on spending invalidate a result? Should the mounting evidence of external influence, including allegations of treason against the prime donor of Leave, also raise questions about validity too?
I can see many scenarios where democracy could be undermined.
Food for thought. | |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:34 - Sep 20 with 1339 views | chicoazul |
| 2nd referendum on 10:30 - Sep 20 by giant_stow |
They made a choice based on a whole load of unknowns, ifs and maybes - the air is clearing and the *real* choice is being finalised.
Why are you guys so scared of democracy? |
If I may luv this is part of the problem with the animal spirits the referendum unleashed. It is very easy for someone to think that you are calling them stupid if they voted for Brexit based on your argument here as you talk about *real* choice, unknowns, being scared. You make it seem like people didnt know what they voted for but did it anyway which may be true but doesnt give Dave in Hull a lot of credit which in turn probably contributes to him hardening his position and doubling down if there is another vote. | |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:35 - Sep 20 with 1340 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 10:26 - Sep 20 by StokieBlue |
Facts are key.
You seem to be against people making a choice based on full facts and prefer them to make a choice based on hearsay.
It's a strange position.
SB |
We do seem to be going round in circles, I guess I don’t agree with the idea that no-one knew what they were voting for, were ignorant or worse racist and that they need their hand holding as guidance to ensure they vote correctly ie to remain a second time.
I really think we have to respect the decsion to leave at best you might make a case for a vote on the detail of the leave deal but I just dont buy in to the idea that yiou can put a binary in/out vote back to the people and I think that to do so would seem like a victory for the EU and only reinforce or increase the leave vote. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 10:39]
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| 2nd referendum on 10:36 - Sep 20 with 1335 views | StokieBlue |
| 2nd referendum on 10:33 - Sep 20 by Swansea_Blue |
You'd have to look to Putin's 75-80% majority to begin to answer a question like that.
But obviously we're not in that position, although there are a few things that have happened that should at least raise eyebrows. Should breaching the election laws on spending invalidate a result? Should the mounting evidence of external influence, including allegations of treason against the prime donor of Leave, also raise questions about validity too?
I can see many scenarios where democracy could be undermined.
Food for thought. |
I agree democracy can be undermined (for a start let's not call Russian elections a free democratic process). Those things are all valid questions, however we don't need to invalidate the result. I think the two question referendum gives people a chance to vote on actual facts.
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| 2nd referendum on 10:37 - Sep 20 with 1330 views | ElephantintheRoom |
18.5million voted to leave. 48 million did not. A referendum has no constitutional basis in this country so a second one is pointless. What we DO have is a sovereign parliament mandated to act in the best interests of the entire country. Clearly as over 65% of MPs were in favour of staying in the EU before the referendum and the majority have been ignoring their duties ever since by quoting 'the will of the people' something has gone badly wrong with what passes for democracy in the meantime. Democracy will intervene over insanity at some point, probably with a general election when parliament rejects the deal. In the meantime it is a pity that parliament has failed the country so badly, not to mention the Brexiteers, not one of whom stepped up to lead us into this brave new future. Unfortunately we do not have democracy in this country unfortunately. 42% of the electorate voted tory, 58% did not. Where is the will of the people in that? Assuming half those tory voters wanted to remain, that means only 21% of the electorate are even remotely represented by the current farce. And of that 21% how many are represented by the extreme and frankly deranged views of Jacob Rees-Mogg and his acolytes? 10%?? SO the current position probably represents the views of less than 10% of the electorate - hence the frustration. Not forgetting that people didn't vote in the referendum approaching 21. |  |
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| 2nd referendum on 10:38 - Sep 20 with 1334 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 2nd referendum on 10:30 - Sep 20 by giant_stow |
They made a choice based on a whole load of unknowns, ifs and maybes - the air is clearing and the *real* choice is being finalised.
Why are you guys so scared of democracy? |
I’m not scared I exercised my democratic right in a referendum 2 years ago if you don’t like the outcome of that vote that’s tough and that’s democracy. | | | |
| 2nd referendum on 10:38 - Sep 20 with 1329 views | StokieBlue |
| 2nd referendum on 10:35 - Sep 20 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
We do seem to be going round in circles, I guess I don’t agree with the idea that no-one knew what they were voting for, were ignorant or worse racist and that they need their hand holding as guidance to ensure they vote correctly ie to remain a second time.
I really think we have to respect the decsion to leave at best you might make a case for a vote on the detail of the leave deal but I just dont buy in to the idea that yiou can put a binary in/out vote back to the people and I think that to do so would seem like a victory for the EU and only reinforce or increase the leave vote. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 10:39]
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If it will only reinforce or increase the leave vote then what's the problem?
SB | |
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