| This second vote thing is very dangerous 13:37 - Sep 20 with 14821 views | Lord_Lucan |
Having a second vote after the public has already voiced their will would damage any idea of democracy that we have far more than any damage that Brexit will do.
We lost the vote so we have to move on. The so called Chequers deal is pathetic, it will end up with us keeping all the bad things and stripping the good things.
If we are out we are out and they should have gone for a hard Brexit immediately, Brussels would never compromise with a fair deal otherwise the dominoes would start to fall. Believe me they will want to set up trade deals immediately once the line has been drawn but whilst we are acting like a big girls blouse we are going to get shafted. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:09 - Sep 20 with 1920 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:49 - Sep 20 by The_Last_Baron |
It's not crashing our Sir, it's moving to WTO rules.
We voted to leave the European Union and that's what we will do, one way or another. If this Government want to stitch us up and reman in all but name there will be dire consequences. The fight will go on and it'll be messy but we will one day leave, if not before the European Union collapses itself.
Brexit Derangement Syndrome is biting hard as the end of March approaches. |
Are you referring to Chequers as a stitch up? It’s what you voted for. Moving to WTO, sounds so seamless. If you haven’t already do some research, you’ll be amazed. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 16:14]
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| Unfortunately on 15:11 - Sep 20 with 1911 views | BOjK |
| Unfortunately on 15:05 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
I wasn't in favour of Brexit at all and would now prefer to leave (if we have to) with some kind of deal in place.
Another recession is likely to hit me just as badly as the last one did, resulting in losing my business, having to start again from scratch and leaving me with considerable debt.
I'm merely making the point that we won't become Somalia (or Norway) overnight. |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:16 - Sep 20 with 1895 views | Darth_Koont |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:51 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
I import goods from outside and inside EU and I may be a bit thick but on certain subjects I have half a clue what I am talking about.
Goods from outside EU will almost undoubtedly stay the same. Take China for example which is obviously the main port of export, different goods have different duty percentages depending on many factors but our goods are 6.5% and I would imagine they would stay the same.
Goods we import from Germany and Italy are currently duty free. If Germany decide to impose a 10% duty fee on goods then we (if we have any sense) will do the same on their cars so I expect everything to stay as 0%
There are many things that are over-talked and under-talked re Brexit, one of the "Remain" scare storys is that the lorrys will be queued up for miles because of customs. I can't see this happening, I had a container come into Southampton from Shanghai on Monday, the goods are always customs cleared before the boat docks. I don't know how many containers the vessel discharged at Soton but container ships can carry 20,000 containers these days so I am sure customs can deal with a load of HGV,S
There are as many untruths from remain as their are leave. It may not come as a surprise but even so called experts don't know what they are talking about, they either don't understand or they have a personal agenda. We are dealing with politicians who haven't a clue about business. |
As you say they'll likely keep tariffs at mutually beneficial levels.
But for most medium-to-large companies that's the tip of the iceberg and the indirect costs and risks are far higher:
How will Brexit affect their business model (cost and time)? And how can they plan for that?
How will they handle potential new border formalities?
How do they maintain the same business experiences for end customers and not risk contractual breaches?
Do they need to change their supply chain? How?
How do they avoid stockpiling goods? Or do they need to start this now anyway?
How does this affect automated systems?
How will Brexit change products and services towards the remaining EU countries?
Honda was talking about it costing tens of millions of pounds but also that it would involve 60,000 new documents!! What are the personnel costs and business risks involved in making sure those are all correct?
We're adding a new layer of complexity that people will be desperate to avoid. When you give companies these types of headaches while they're already looking at ways to develop products and services, win market share, reduce costs and risk and increase profits in a competitive global market then they'll likely look for somewhere far more reliable to set up and do business. Or their customers will make that choice for them. |  |
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| Unfortunately on 15:17 - Sep 20 with 1893 views | BOjK |
| Unfortunately on 15:08 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
What about the jobs that have been created since the vote took place?
Remember all the scaremongering on how we would implode?
None of that happened and makes no one believe your side of the debate. |
That isn't me scaremongering. I'm quoting back at a leaver his "well, things might be a bit sh.t numbers".
The post-referendum numbers were quite interesting. Our growth has clearly slowed, although we haven't entered recession (despite predictions). And the pound has fallen raising inflation and reducing all our spending power.
One of reasons for this is hyperbole by politicians, and lack of nuance by the media. If a reputable body says that they estimate the effects of Brexit to be a reduction in GDP of between 0 and 5%, then this will get reported as "5% reduction in GDP predicted". Which is true, but not very helpful.
Anyway, I speak for myself. Not for my "side". | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:19 - Sep 20 with 1891 views | Guthrum |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:49 - Sep 20 by The_Last_Baron |
It's not crashing our Sir, it's moving to WTO rules.
We voted to leave the European Union and that's what we will do, one way or another. If this Government want to stitch us up and reman in all but name there will be dire consequences. The fight will go on and it'll be messy but we will one day leave, if not before the European Union collapses itself.
Brexit Derangement Syndrome is biting hard as the end of March approaches. |
What 'dire consequences', 'messy' 'fight'? Are people planning to raise armed rebellion, resort to terrorism? |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:21 - Sep 20 with 1881 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:04 - Sep 20 by BOjK |
"There are many things that are over-talked and under-talked re Brexit, one of the "Remain" scare storys is that the lorrys will be queued up for miles because of customs. I can't see this happening, I had a container come into Southampton from Shanghai on Monday, the goods are always customs cleared before the boat docks. I don't know how many containers the vessel discharged at Soton but container ships can carry 20,000 containers these days so I am sure customs can deal with a load of HGV,S"
Clearly we can put the infrastructure in place to manage the flow of goods between us and Europe smoothly, but we can't do it overnight. And we can only start when we have agreed what the new arrangement will be.
Just flicking the Vs at Europe, deparing with no deal and no transition period *will* cause this kind of disruption, surely. Even if we are prepared to let any good from Europe in without any checking, you can be reasonably sure the Europeans won't. Hence queues of Lorries in Kent while we untangle the mess. |
Clearly we can put the infrastructure in place to manage the flow of goods between us and Europe smoothly, but we can't do it overnight. And we can only start when we have agreed what the new arrangement will be.
HMRC have been working on a new clearance computer system for a long time.
For years containers are cleared through their current system in seconds, any they want to inspect are moved to the customs shed. If the Government handled the process correctly they would have had two years to ensure this system was in place for EU import goods.
At our container ports there are only a few custom officials, yet again just another scare story from the remainers that do not understand (or maybe they do) and want to frighten everyone. |  | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:22 - Sep 20 with 1879 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:09 - Sep 20 by WestStanderLaLaLa |
Are you referring to Chequers as a stitch up? It’s what you voted for. Moving to WTO, sounds so seamless. If you haven’t already do some research, you’ll be amazed. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 16:14]
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We voted to Leave the EU and all that it stands for, not to still stay in bed with them. | | | |
| Unfortunately on 15:24 - Sep 20 with 1874 views | Guthrum |
| Unfortunately on 15:17 - Sep 20 by BOjK |
That isn't me scaremongering. I'm quoting back at a leaver his "well, things might be a bit sh.t numbers".
The post-referendum numbers were quite interesting. Our growth has clearly slowed, although we haven't entered recession (despite predictions). And the pound has fallen raising inflation and reducing all our spending power.
One of reasons for this is hyperbole by politicians, and lack of nuance by the media. If a reputable body says that they estimate the effects of Brexit to be a reduction in GDP of between 0 and 5%, then this will get reported as "5% reduction in GDP predicted". Which is true, but not very helpful.
Anyway, I speak for myself. Not for my "side". |
Ahem. I'm NOT a Leaver. Nor was I trying to suggest things would be rosy, or even average. A 2% fall in GDP was not meant to sound positive. I mentioned a recession and then told you my experience of the last one. | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:25 - Sep 20 with 1866 views | Guthrum |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:22 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
We voted to Leave the EU and all that it stands for, not to still stay in bed with them. |
We were also told that everybody (including the EU) would be lining up to make deals with us. | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:26 - Sep 20 with 1862 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:04 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
You're a great guy Pickles, have a great day.
I gave this place a wide birth for a while because it resembled an asylum, there are some interesting things on here but sometimes every now and then TWTD completely eats itself and it isn't a great place to be.
Once I read that my new grandson wasn't necessarily a boy despite having a pair of balls and a cock I thought I'd have a break. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 18:45]
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Have missed you in the chatroom but it is an embarrassing place at the moment.
They all craved change but want results to happen overnight.
The only upside is I have been able to make contact with some posters from the Woodbridge area. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:29 - Sep 20 with 1853 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:25 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
We were also told that everybody (including the EU) would be lining up to make deals with us. |
They are lining up but we are still tied to the EU and cant make them happen as of yet. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:34 - Sep 20 with 1836 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:16 - Sep 20 by Darth_Koont |
As you say they'll likely keep tariffs at mutually beneficial levels.
But for most medium-to-large companies that's the tip of the iceberg and the indirect costs and risks are far higher:
How will Brexit affect their business model (cost and time)? And how can they plan for that?
How will they handle potential new border formalities?
How do they maintain the same business experiences for end customers and not risk contractual breaches?
Do they need to change their supply chain? How?
How do they avoid stockpiling goods? Or do they need to start this now anyway?
How does this affect automated systems?
How will Brexit change products and services towards the remaining EU countries?
Honda was talking about it costing tens of millions of pounds but also that it would involve 60,000 new documents!! What are the personnel costs and business risks involved in making sure those are all correct?
We're adding a new layer of complexity that people will be desperate to avoid. When you give companies these types of headaches while they're already looking at ways to develop products and services, win market share, reduce costs and risk and increase profits in a competitive global market then they'll likely look for somewhere far more reliable to set up and do business. Or their customers will make that choice for them. |
I'll try and reply to this later as funnily enough I'm trying to organise a shipment from Italy at the moment but Barclays bank is down!
However - I can't advise about the service industry but as far as goods go I really can't see anything that isn't easily solved.
Don't get me wrong, I still don't want to leave but I'm not panicking - apart from the overreaction that has caused sterling to crash which actually is the real problem.
I'm more concerned that my phone tariff will rise when I'm on a beach in Spain - in fact if "Remain" had mentioned this and the other possible 1st world problems that is going to affect The Benidorm Set there may have been a different outcome. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 15:35]
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:34 - Sep 20 with 1833 views | BOjK |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:29 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
They are lining up but we are still tied to the EU and cant make them happen as of yet. |
"Easiest deal in history ..." | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:35 - Sep 20 with 1828 views | Steve_M |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:21 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
Clearly we can put the infrastructure in place to manage the flow of goods between us and Europe smoothly, but we can't do it overnight. And we can only start when we have agreed what the new arrangement will be.
HMRC have been working on a new clearance computer system for a long time.
For years containers are cleared through their current system in seconds, any they want to inspect are moved to the customs shed. If the Government handled the process correctly they would have had two years to ensure this system was in place for EU import goods.
At our container ports there are only a few custom officials, yet again just another scare story from the remainers that do not understand (or maybe they do) and want to frighten everyone. |
You are familiar with the record of big government IT projects over the last couple of decades? |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:35 - Sep 20 with 1830 views | Guthrum |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:29 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
They are lining up but we are still tied to the EU and cant make them happen as of yet. |
The EU - who can put something in place and will still be speaking for a selection of our largest and closest trading partners even after Brexit - do not seem very keen on making a deal without generous concessions. The USA has already stated it wants us to axe vast swathes of regulation as a price of trade deals. | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:35 - Sep 20 with 1833 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:07 - Sep 20 by Steve_M |
I think it's more dangerous to crash out of the EU without a deal and decimate what's left of British manufacturing and agriculture. I don't see the repercussions of that being a happy benign society.
The reason there is no deal yet is because May has three mutually incompatible objectives and forcing a hard border in Ireland is also dangerous for reasons obvious to anyone except the more ignorant Brexiters. |
Given statements out of Salzburg today a Canada style deal is pretty much all that is left now if we want to avoid a WTO scenario. Both leave the NI issue largely unresolved and I agree that’s not a good outcome. |  | | |
| Unfortunately on 15:39 - Sep 20 with 1813 views | MattinLondon |
| Unfortunately on 15:08 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
What about the jobs that have been created since the vote took place?
Remember all the scaremongering on how we would implode?
None of that happened and makes no one believe your side of the debate. |
The U.K. is still in the EU. |  | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:40 - Sep 20 with 1816 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:21 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
Clearly we can put the infrastructure in place to manage the flow of goods between us and Europe smoothly, but we can't do it overnight. And we can only start when we have agreed what the new arrangement will be.
HMRC have been working on a new clearance computer system for a long time.
For years containers are cleared through their current system in seconds, any they want to inspect are moved to the customs shed. If the Government handled the process correctly they would have had two years to ensure this system was in place for EU import goods.
At our container ports there are only a few custom officials, yet again just another scare story from the remainers that do not understand (or maybe they do) and want to frighten everyone. |
Pretty much right. The whole customs thing is a scare story, people imagine that blokes with hats walk up to every container with a clipboard.
Our goods into Felixstowe and Southampton are cleared electronically by a nerd in Liverpool a week before the captain can even see The UK. | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:42 - Sep 20 with 1811 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:35 - Sep 20 by Steve_M |
You are familiar with the record of big government IT projects over the last couple of decades? |
The current customs IT system (CHIEF) has worked excellently for years and I can see no reason why the new one CDS wont be even better.
The last few meetings (HMRC forums) have been encouraging. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:44 - Sep 20 with 1804 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:35 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
The EU - who can put something in place and will still be speaking for a selection of our largest and closest trading partners even after Brexit - do not seem very keen on making a deal without generous concessions. The USA has already stated it wants us to axe vast swathes of regulation as a price of trade deals. |
Have the EU actually got a trade deal in place? They take years to come to an agreement and basically bring in what they have been slamming TRUMP for. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:44 - Sep 20 with 1801 views | Ryorry |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:07 - Sep 20 by Steve_M |
I think it's more dangerous to crash out of the EU without a deal and decimate what's left of British manufacturing and agriculture. I don't see the repercussions of that being a happy benign society.
The reason there is no deal yet is because May has three mutually incompatible objectives and forcing a hard border in Ireland is also dangerous for reasons obvious to anyone except the more ignorant Brexiters. |
When I was driving through north Lancashire and North Yorks, from Morecombe Bay through the dales to Ripon - areas which are heavily farmed & very dependent on the agriculture industry - just before the referendum, I saw many very large 'Leave' banners and none for 'Remain' in those rural areas.
Was and still am a staunch remainer, but have always said that it would be far more dangerous, potentially catastrophic, to have a second vote because it would completely undermine the voting system, democracy, and our faith in it. Yes that faith is pretty shot anyway, but deliberately getting out a JCB to dig a large hole with which ceremonially bury it could be the last straw, with serious civil unrest and riots a real possibility. |  |
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| Unfortunately on 15:45 - Sep 20 with 1796 views | pickles110564 |
| Unfortunately on 15:39 - Sep 20 by MattinLondon |
The U.K. is still in the EU. |
LOL. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:47 - Sep 20 with 1787 views | factual_blue |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:04 - Sep 20 by Currie10 |
It would take the absolute michael out of people if we go down the second referendum approach.
Why stop there, why not do the same at the next general election incase people ' aren't sure' again. |
If you say any vote isn't reversible, you're destroying democracy. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:47 - Sep 20 with 1790 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:40 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
Pretty much right. The whole customs thing is a scare story, people imagine that blokes with hats walk up to every container with a clipboard.
Our goods into Felixstowe and Southampton are cleared electronically by a nerd in Liverpool a week before the captain can even see The UK. |
But what would we know as a pair Lord?
I only worked at the Port for 32 years but because I voted Brexit I am thick and have my head buried in sand. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:50 - Sep 20 with 1779 views | itfcjoe |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:04 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
You're a great guy Pickles, have a great day.
I gave this place a wide birth for a while because it resembled an asylum, there are some interesting things on here but sometimes every now and then TWTD completely eats itself and it isn't a great place to be.
Once I read that my new grandson wasn't necessarily a boy despite having a pair of balls and a cock I thought I'd have a break. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 18:45]
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Congrats LL, hope all is well with your cisgender Grandson |  |
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