| This second vote thing is very dangerous 13:37 - Sep 20 with 14836 views | Lord_Lucan |
Having a second vote after the public has already voiced their will would damage any idea of democracy that we have far more than any damage that Brexit will do.
We lost the vote so we have to move on. The so called Chequers deal is pathetic, it will end up with us keeping all the bad things and stripping the good things.
If we are out we are out and they should have gone for a hard Brexit immediately, Brussels would never compromise with a fair deal otherwise the dominoes would start to fall. Believe me they will want to set up trade deals immediately once the line has been drawn but whilst we are acting like a big girls blouse we are going to get shafted. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:51 - Sep 20 with 3406 views | Darth_Koont |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:34 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
I'll try and reply to this later as funnily enough I'm trying to organise a shipment from Italy at the moment but Barclays bank is down!
However - I can't advise about the service industry but as far as goods go I really can't see anything that isn't easily solved.
Don't get me wrong, I still don't want to leave but I'm not panicking - apart from the overreaction that has caused sterling to crash which actually is the real problem.
I'm more concerned that my phone tariff will rise when I'm on a beach in Spain - in fact if "Remain" had mentioned this and the other possible 1st world problems that is going to affect The Benidorm Set there may have been a different outcome. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 15:35]
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I think it's more that many companies operate or are part of cross-border supply chains. The simple problem at the moment is they don't know how their part of the chain will be affected or where the rest of the chain might break down.
I'm sure they can stumble through and maintain most relationships but those obstacles (even if they're just perceptions) don't bode well for new investment and future business. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:23 - Sep 20 with 3366 views | Benters2 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:04 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
You're a great guy Pickles, have a great day.
I gave this place a wide birth for a while because it resembled an asylum, there are some interesting things on here but sometimes every now and then TWTD completely eats itself and it isn't a great place to be.
Once I read that my new grandson wasn't necessarily a boy despite having a pair of balls and a cock I thought I'd have a break. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 18:45]
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I make you right. |  | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:31 - Sep 20 with 3364 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:34 - Sep 20 by BOjK |
"Easiest deal in history ..." |
If we had business people like Trump negotiating instead of a remainer it would be. |  | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:48 - Sep 20 with 3341 views | BlueBadger |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:25 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
We were also told that everybody (including the EU) would be lining up to make deals with us. |
And I am most definitely NOT £350M a week better off. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:49 - Sep 20 with 3342 views | Guthrum |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:31 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
If we had business people like Trump negotiating instead of a remainer it would be. |
If we had business people it would probably be a good thing. Trump, however, wouldn't be my first choice. |  |
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| Unfortunately on 16:50 - Sep 20 with 3341 views | Ryorry |
| Unfortunately on 14:34 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
A yes/no public (or even Parliamentary) vote on the deal is the thing most likely to result in a crash exit.
Not only will the hard Brexiteers vote against it, but so will those who don't think it goes far enough and some who are opposed to the whole thing. Thus the result will be "rejection" and the clock runs out of time with nothing agreed. |
Must say I hadn't thought of that, well done pointing it up.
Seriously hope you and other small businesses don't suffer in way you outline in later post on thread.
But if we actually get to be more dependent on Trump as someone else goes on to suggest, god help us!! |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:52 - Sep 20 with 3335 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:31 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
If we had business people like Trump negotiating instead of a remainer it would be. |
I can see two sides to Trump, mostly bad but there are still two sides at least. People that dismiss everything he does are a bit silly to do so but sometimes I wonder what planet he is on.
The recent duty levy on China is crazy, some duties will go to 25% sometime soon.....................although I wouldn't bet on China renegotiating some of their tarrifs because of Trumps actions.
Trump seems to threaten mayhem and then settle for what remains a very good deal to The US, it is a clever tactic and it works. | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:53 - Sep 20 with 3331 views | tabletopjoe |
Now we know why the UK shouldn’t do referendums |  |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:53 - Sep 20 with 3330 views | chicoazul |
Agree with you on all that Lucan. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:56 - Sep 20 with 3325 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:49 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
If we had business people it would probably be a good thing. Trump, however, wouldn't be my first choice. |
It should have been business people informing the general public before the vote as they could really explain the issues.
Several self made millionaires have made strong cases to leave, Dyson, Weatherspoon etc but the remain side do not believe them.
Trump would have laid down the facts straight away, there would have been none of this wasted two years of feet stamping and dithering from both sides.
The EU would have been under no illusion in that if you do not want to play ball you will not get the billions pay off that they do not deserve. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:21 - Sep 20 with 3308 views | Guthrum |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:56 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
It should have been business people informing the general public before the vote as they could really explain the issues.
Several self made millionaires have made strong cases to leave, Dyson, Weatherspoon etc but the remain side do not believe them.
Trump would have laid down the facts straight away, there would have been none of this wasted two years of feet stamping and dithering from both sides.
The EU would have been under no illusion in that if you do not want to play ball you will not get the billions pay off that they do not deserve. |
Trump would have created a blown-up crisis, then produced half a solution which is subsequently undermined by members of his own government. Sound familiar?
Against Dyson and Martin you have the CBI and senior executives of manufacturing industries who were (and remain) not in favour. Which the Brexit side chose not to believe. Complex problem, isn't it?
What we really needed was a an extensive period of debate and some concrete planning proposals before any vote happened, not some snap referendum with an imprecise question. But certain people were gambling the answer would be "remain" and so we're plunged into this mess with insufficient preparation, consensus or time to sort things out. | |
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| Unfortunately on 17:26 - Sep 20 with 3293 views | SpruceMoose |
| Unfortunately on 14:53 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
The chosen few? You really are up yourself! |
Well, It's not my fault that I'm better than you. Besides, you'll be busy 'Making England Great Again' right? |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:30 - Sep 20 with 3285 views | SpruceMoose |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 16:31 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
If we had business people like Trump negotiating instead of a remainer it would be. |
Trump is no kind of businessman. He's never earned a cheque that didn't have his own family's name on it (until recently, when he might have got one signed by Putin...) | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:33 - Sep 20 with 3279 views | soupytwist |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:44 - Sep 20 by Ryorry |
When I was driving through north Lancashire and North Yorks, from Morecombe Bay through the dales to Ripon - areas which are heavily farmed & very dependent on the agriculture industry - just before the referendum, I saw many very large 'Leave' banners and none for 'Remain' in those rural areas.
Was and still am a staunch remainer, but have always said that it would be far more dangerous, potentially catastrophic, to have a second vote because it would completely undermine the voting system, democracy, and our faith in it. Yes that faith is pretty shot anyway, but deliberately getting out a JCB to dig a large hole with which ceremonially bury it could be the last straw, with serious civil unrest and riots a real possibility. |
Considering 2016 was the second vote on whether to stay in the EEC/EU how long would have to pass for a third to be acceptable? |  | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:34 - Sep 20 with 3279 views | Ryorry |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:21 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
Trump would have created a blown-up crisis, then produced half a solution which is subsequently undermined by members of his own government. Sound familiar?
Against Dyson and Martin you have the CBI and senior executives of manufacturing industries who were (and remain) not in favour. Which the Brexit side chose not to believe. Complex problem, isn't it?
What we really needed was a an extensive period of debate and some concrete planning proposals before any vote happened, not some snap referendum with an imprecise question. But certain people were gambling the answer would be "remain" and so we're plunged into this mess with insufficient preparation, consensus or time to sort things out. |
Quite, and whilst before 2016 I'd thought Thatcher the worst ever PM in my lifetime, that "accolade" now has to go to Cameron imho - his and his cabinet's stupidity and selfishness has landed this country in what looks like the greatest peacetime mess up* ever.
I was going to use the "clutterfckfest" word for the first time ever, but couldn't remember the exact spelling and, unsurprisingly, a search returned 0 results!! | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:40 - Sep 20 with 3263 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:33 - Sep 20 by soupytwist |
Considering 2016 was the second vote on whether to stay in the EEC/EU how long would have to pass for a third to be acceptable? |
What first vote are you referring to, the one to join The Common Market? | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:43 - Sep 20 with 3248 views | soupytwist |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:40 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
What first vote are you referring to, the one to join The Common Market? |
We joined on 1st January 1973. There was a referendum in June 1975 and the question was "Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?"
The result was Yes by 67% to 33%.
(All according to Wikipedia). | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:51 - Sep 20 with 3233 views | connorscontract |
You find a lovely house and agree to buy it at the asking price. The survey then comes back indicating that there are many unforseen problems that will cost more than you can afford and take years to sort out. Do you still go ahead with the purchase?
When something isn't what was promised, why do you have to go through with it, to your detriment?
In fact that isn't even the analogy. A second Referendum on the actual situation we will enter into (deal or no deal) is simply asking the question "Do I want to go ahead and buy the house?" to which the answer can be "Yes" or "No". But it's madness to refuse to read the survey and make a decision based on actual information just because you liked the kerb appeal or fancied a move, or were promised that "It's a lovely house and will make you much happier" by a dodgy estate agent named Nigel or Boris.
The Government deciding they are going to give up on Brexit, or Parliament voting it down without it going back to the people would be a failure of democracy, but giving it back to the people to decide with the actual reality much better known is no different to asking the public in a referendum in the first place.
And it also includes the hundreds of thousands of adults who were under 18 at the time of the first referendum but will face the whole of their working lives with the consequences of this. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:55 - Sep 20 with 3224 views | Ryorry |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:51 - Sep 20 by connorscontract |
You find a lovely house and agree to buy it at the asking price. The survey then comes back indicating that there are many unforseen problems that will cost more than you can afford and take years to sort out. Do you still go ahead with the purchase?
When something isn't what was promised, why do you have to go through with it, to your detriment?
In fact that isn't even the analogy. A second Referendum on the actual situation we will enter into (deal or no deal) is simply asking the question "Do I want to go ahead and buy the house?" to which the answer can be "Yes" or "No". But it's madness to refuse to read the survey and make a decision based on actual information just because you liked the kerb appeal or fancied a move, or were promised that "It's a lovely house and will make you much happier" by a dodgy estate agent named Nigel or Boris.
The Government deciding they are going to give up on Brexit, or Parliament voting it down without it going back to the people would be a failure of democracy, but giving it back to the people to decide with the actual reality much better known is no different to asking the public in a referendum in the first place.
And it also includes the hundreds of thousands of adults who were under 18 at the time of the first referendum but will face the whole of their working lives with the consequences of this. |
Good points well made. | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:56 - Sep 20 with 3222 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:43 - Sep 20 by soupytwist |
We joined on 1st January 1973. There was a referendum in June 1975 and the question was "Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?"
The result was Yes by 67% to 33%.
(All according to Wikipedia). |
Yes, I realise this but what was voted for then (The Common Market) was absolutely nothing to what The EU became. This is why the agricultural and fishing communities voted leave.
I repeat; I am a remainer, but we blew it.
Successive governments have failed to deal with inequality and many remainers can't see things from both sides, they prefer to label Brexiters as Little Englanders, thickos and racists. It's all a bit pathetic and got up the nose of people so much that those on the fence voted out. | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:57 - Sep 20 with 3224 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:22 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
We voted to Leave the EU and all that it stands for, not to still stay in bed with them. |
It’s out. You voted out. You’ve won get over it. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:59 - Sep 20 with 3219 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:51 - Sep 20 by connorscontract |
You find a lovely house and agree to buy it at the asking price. The survey then comes back indicating that there are many unforseen problems that will cost more than you can afford and take years to sort out. Do you still go ahead with the purchase?
When something isn't what was promised, why do you have to go through with it, to your detriment?
In fact that isn't even the analogy. A second Referendum on the actual situation we will enter into (deal or no deal) is simply asking the question "Do I want to go ahead and buy the house?" to which the answer can be "Yes" or "No". But it's madness to refuse to read the survey and make a decision based on actual information just because you liked the kerb appeal or fancied a move, or were promised that "It's a lovely house and will make you much happier" by a dodgy estate agent named Nigel or Boris.
The Government deciding they are going to give up on Brexit, or Parliament voting it down without it going back to the people would be a failure of democracy, but giving it back to the people to decide with the actual reality much better known is no different to asking the public in a referendum in the first place.
And it also includes the hundreds of thousands of adults who were under 18 at the time of the first referendum but will face the whole of their working lives with the consequences of this. |
Quite frankly that's absolutely ridiculous.
The question was in or out, there was no other option. You can't go back now and say that you posed the question wrong. | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 18:10 - Sep 20 with 3198 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:59 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
Quite frankly that's absolutely ridiculous.
The question was in or out, there was no other option. You can't go back now and say that you posed the question wrong. |
Or to continue the analogy, there were several conflicting surveys done and the choice was buy or not buy! |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 18:12 - Sep 20 with 3190 views | SpruceMoose |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 17:59 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
Quite frankly that's absolutely ridiculous.
The question was in or out, there was no other option. You can't go back now and say that you posed the question wrong. |
"You can't go back now and say that you posed the question wrong."
That's not what is being said. To plough on regardless is the ridiculous course of action. Let's have a look at what the actual terms of our leaving are. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Unfortunately on 18:19 - Sep 20 with 3181 views | Benters2 |
| Unfortunately on 17:26 - Sep 20 by SpruceMoose |
Well, It's not my fault that I'm better than you. Besides, you'll be busy 'Making England Great Again' right? |
Why do you worry so Uncle Sam? | | | |
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